Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define....


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... Page: <<   < prev  1 [2]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/9/2006 11:01:31 AM   
BeingChewsie


Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Abuse is one of those topics that evokes great emotion and frustration. I believe it is because so many of us have had to deal with the issue within our own lives...either as a result of being in an abusive situation or having to defend WIITWD against accusations of abuse.

We seem to be looking for a clear answer and I don't really believe that one exists. We fail because we attempt to define it as falling under the umbrella of one concept. Unfortunately, the issue is far more complicated than any one word or concept can encompass. It is far more individual than any set standard can possibly define.

We have tried to determine if consent is the defining factor. Yet there are many forms of consent and not all of them will nullify the possibility of abuse.

We have tried to determine if intent is what can define it. Yet there are many reasons that intent can be innocent and lacking malice and still result in abuse.

We have tried to determine if extremity of action or pain inflicted or endured will provide us the definition. But all of those things are subjective to the involved individuals.

We have tried to determine if the words safe and sane can be what makes the difference. Again, subjective.

We have tried to determine if health, harm or result is what defines it. Again, subjective.

I don't believe that we will ever be able to find an all encompassing definition as to what constitutes abuse. I believe that we will never find it if we attempt to dissect it using a specific concept. It is only when we take the entire picture into account on an individual basis that we can begin to make any sort of determination...and even then our process is subjective and fallible.

Below is an article I received in email this morning. I believe it makes some good points, especially in regards to the failings of any one concept. I take issue with his general conclusion though, as I believe that it too, does not take into consideration all of the possibilities.
quote:

  
Defining Abuse in Absolute and Total Power Exchange

By Master Eso © 2005


[Mod Note:  paste of article replaced by link to original content]


If you think you are being abused and you want to leave the relationship, go ahead. You don't need a cookie cutter definition, if it feels bad and makes you want leave, if you feel abused..then it doesn't matter what *any* other definition is.

Some people believe an owner has a right to abuse his property. I'd probably fall into that camp but because I believe in psychological enslavement, I'm not sure how long someone who processerd things as "abusive" would remain enslaved. My dynamic is a little diffrent I don't believe *I* can be abused by him. I don't hold that as true for anyone else in a similiar dynamic. There is nothing he could do that would be out the realm of his rights, it may be judged abusive by an outsider but because I don't believe there is a use he could put me to that would be wrong..it isn't abuse to me. In the end how *I* feel is the only determining factor in abuse.

I don't think consent matters, I don't think intent matters. I think what matters is the effect ..if something brings you down, makes you feel bad, makes you feel abused..then you wouldn't be wrong to call it abuse. The question is: Is it acceptrable to you in your dynamic? If not..perhaps you should think about leaving.


(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/9/2006 11:14:51 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie
I don't think consent matters, I don't think intent matters. I think what matters is the effect


I said exactly this in other threads on abuse.  Once again we are thinking alike.

(in reply to BeingChewsie)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/9/2006 11:15:38 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		I couldn't agree more with what agirl said. It's entirely situational, as far as "judging abuse" (my opinion) - although there are "objective laws" about it that define it (with good reason, I think). But even the law is flexible (it changes, we have courts, lawyers, etc.) 

Personally, if something isn't "consensual" in the sense that it's been discussed as possibily happening sometime (even if in a passing moment) then, unless someone has given a Dominant/Master "carte blanche" by declaring oneself a slave, it could be intentionally abusive on the part of a Dom/Master (I think). But I am a "submissive" and not a "slave." 

I do think there are probably instances where things just get screwed up and people do make unintentional errors in judgment. Just as I think there really are instances where some sociopath had "evil intent" (intent counts for a lot, with me).

That's why I hate defining terms like this. I think in many cases, to call something "abuse" you really "had to be there" and see how it all played out, and know the people and the circumstances. I do believe there is such a thing as abuse. But - I think defining it on paper is going to be difficult. I know there are "laws" defining it, but if they weren't "open to interpretation" then  I think we wouldn't maybe even have a justice system (or lawyers, hehe).

- Susan    

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 12/9/2006 11:26:33 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to agirl)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/9/2006 11:48:39 AM   
Dackon


Posts: 9
Joined: 5/3/2006
Status: offline 		I have been serching for my own deffention I know i have no experiance in the lifestyle so anything i say can't be from experiance withen this lifestyle
Please excuse speling errors.

To use wrongly or improperly; misuse: to abuse one's authority.
A dictonary deffeniton of course wont suffice so ill just put what i think abuse is perhaps im wrong if you see holes in my deffention feel free to let me know.

abuse is not treating somone properly so first you would have to define the proper treatment of that pearson though subjective it could be done on basis of each relationship a person is in.  Can you mistreat someone without tryin to the awnser to that question is obviusly yes meaning that you dont have to have intent to abuse. There is no person withoght limits. It could be said that pushing somone past there limits when there not willing is misuse or abuse. so willingnes is a factor of abuse. Because We obviusly want to push ourselfs past our limits and in a relationship it is natral to push each other past there limits. This is what alows the relationship to grow. Can a stranger abuse someone. It seams to me the anwser is clearly yes. Thow they are not in a position of trust in your life they can push past the limits that you have set for them. so in a sense you have a relationship with everyone around you and limits for those relationships are set in your mind wether you know it or not. In tpe the slave becomes the property of the owner. so can abuse exsist in that kind of relationship? Will can one abuse ones house the awnser is obviusly yes  your house can deprecheate in value and structual soundness if  not well kept. So abuse can exsist if you are the property of another. The house has limits just like people even in tpe it seams to me that those limits wethere phsical or mental do still exsist, and even in tpe the slave can still not wish for those limits to be pushed past. Thought just as in the house they are soposed to ahve no final say in what happens it can still be abused. So i guess to summ all this up It would have to do with limits and willingness to have them pushed or broken.


(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/9/2006 12:07:52 PM   
Dackon


Posts: 9
Joined: 5/3/2006
Status: offline 		ok A good point was brought up as i was posting that I didnet think about The human language is flawed any of them simply because we are flawed. Example We call a red shirt red but do we truely precive red the same way? its likely that we dont. It is a unique perseption only to red for ourselfes. We were taught to match that perseption with the collor red. So what can we do about this? When in a relationship with somomone make shure your deffentions of  words are clear to those you are in the relationships with. no we can't define every single word but you can important ones or define more words as situwations arisse that calls need for those words.  Relevence to this topic the word abuse should be defined within a relationship espeshily important in a relationship in this lifestyle

(in reply to Dackon)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/9/2006 12:44:41 PM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		It's not definable. Not in a sense that can be universally accepted. There are lots of terms that can't be defined in a concrete way that can make them applicable to all situations. I think it's really interesting to discuss how people view these things, though.

Abuse can be a little like *love* .......you might *feel* you're being abused but the person *abusing* isn't intent on abuse.

I wouldn't try to define it myself, mostly because I don't think it's necessary to. As Susan said......in law it has a certain amount of definition......laws work that way........people and situations don;t tend to.

agirl



(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/9/2006 2:27:07 PM   
Dackon


Posts: 9
Joined: 5/3/2006
Status: offline 		For the most part i agree with you a girl you dont need to give it a hard effention that will fit with the world... but i do beliv e you need to define it for youerself. I have been in a abusive relationship and to help avoide in in the furture i have sortof defined it for myself though it is a very soft deffenitoin, and in this type of lifestyle woulden't be something important to discuss ?

(in reply to agirl)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/9/2006 2:37:30 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
If a different poster expressed the same thing I would most likely suggest serious therapy.

Let it be well known however, that I HAVE been in therapy and may very well be again in my life.  Though it had absolutely nothing to do with abuse or ability to reason and make choices. 

Perspective can change a lot and they are always reshaping as new information is added to the statue.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/9/2006 3:23:30 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

We seem to be looking for a clear answer and I don't really believe that one exists. We fail because we attempt to define it as falling under the umbrella of one concept. Unfortunately, the issue is far more complicated than any one word or concept can encompass. It is far more individual than any set standard can possibly define.



Universal definitions are very rare indeed, particularly when so much subjectivity exists.

I don't find it of any value to attempt to find any universal definition.  What I do believe is useful is understanding what is abuse to myself and those that I am in a relationship with.  I try to appreciate and understand to the best of my ability what consequences my actions will result in.  I try to avoid negative consequences to the person and the relationship.  I avoid it by focusing on generating positive consequences for the relationship and the people in it.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/9/2006 4:29:27 PM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dackon

For the most part i agree with you a girl you dont need to give it a hard effention that will fit with the world... but i do beliv e you need to define it for youerself. I have been in a abusive relationship and to help avoide in in the furture i have sortof defined it for myself though it is a very soft deffenitoin, and in this type of lifestyle woulden't be something important to discuss ?


Not for me, no. It's never been necessary in almost 50 yrs and I can't see it suddenly becoming such.

agirl

(in reply to Dackon)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/10/2006 6:06:33 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
Universal definitions are very rare indeed, particularly when so much subjectivity exists.

I don't find it of any value to attempt to find any universal definition.  What I do believe is useful is understanding what is abuse to myself and those that I am in a relationship with.  I try to appreciate and understand to the best of my ability what consequences my actions will result in.  I try to avoid negative consequences to the person and the relationship.  I avoid it by focusing on generating positive consequences for the relationship and the people in it.


KoM,
You're response got me thinking.....yeah, dangerous thing I know.....lol.

If the bottom line is that abuse is a topic that is going to have to be ultimately decided between what is and what isn't uniquely in each individual relationship and our individual perspectives will not offer much relevant information to other's situations....are we taking the wrong tack when we discuss things like safety, red flags, things to watch out for, what is and what is not appropriate, etc., with newbies?

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/10/2006 6:30:01 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

If the bottom line is that abuse is a topic that is going to have to be ultimately decided between what is and what isn't uniquely in each individual relationship and our individual perspectives will not offer much relevant information to other's situations....are we taking the wrong tack when we discuss things like safety, red flags, things to watch out for, what is and what is not appropriate, etc., with newbies?



I don't think so. If someone new to bdsm has a worry or a query then a discussion gives them a range of opinions and thoughts that they can use and maybe apply to their situation.

agirl





(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/10/2006 7:46:26 AM   
sublizzie


Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
The reason I take issue with his "intent" definition is that there can be "good" intent, or intent not to harm that still results in abuse. It could be a case, as he mentioned, of illness, be it physical or mental....or it could be a case of ignorance or poor information. But the end result may still be abuse.


There is a difference between a one-time "good intent" abusive situation and an on-going abusive situation. If someone, with good intentions, does something to me that I find abusive and I tell them that what they did was not good for me, then their response will normally be "I'm sorry." and they quit doing that thing to me. BUT if their intentions were not good, then they'll keep doing it, perhaps in a different way, perhaps more often or with more negativity.

I learned not to tell my abuser if something he did was abusive to me because that meant he'd just keep doing it more and more. That's because his *intent* was not good. I've had the same things done to me by other people, told them it wasn't good for me, and they stopped the behavior. Their *intent* was good; it just didn't work out that way for me. 

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/10/2006 9:04:18 AM   
HollyS


Posts: 230
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

If the bottom line is that abuse is a topic that is going to have to be ultimately decided between what is and what isn't uniquely in each individual relationship and our individual perspectives will not offer much relevant information to other's situations....are we taking the wrong tack when we discuss things like safety, red flags, things to watch out for, what is and what is not appropriate, etc., with newbies? 


No, I don't think so.  Historically it's always been considered appropriate for seasoned people to offer support and advice to newer people, whether it's within one's career, parenthood, or even high schoolers dating for the first time. Dipping one's toes in the bdsm ocean can be fun, scary, disorienting, exciting, and/or confusing - like so many other new lifestyle changes. I remember what it was like to be new (as do many of us) and I'd like to make that road easier for others if possible.

Just like in other areas of life, we shouldn't be surprised when our experienced advice is ignored.  Or when new people come back with a few scars and a story.  Everyone learns in their own way.

When I was brand-new, what was most useful was the friends who said "this is what worked for me, how I decided whether to move forward...  these are the books/websites I read, the people I talked to, the exercises I did to figure out what I wanted/needed."  They focused on helping me figure out my place in things rather than giving blanket "Do/Don't do" advice about how and when and what to do. 

So I tell people the same things that were told to me:  Listen to your gut.  Keeping a journal on your experiences and feelings may be a good way of sorting things out for yourself.  If you want a mentor/friendly ear, having someone of your same orientation can be very helpful.  Do what makes you feel good, don't do what makes you feel bad (for new folks I think this is critical). Educate yourself as much as possible.  And I'm here if you need an ear, anytime.

~Holly

_____________________________

I wish my lawn were emo, so it would cut itself.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/10/2006 9:27:49 AM   
sharainks


Posts: 499
Joined: 12/13/2004
Status: offline 		To me abuse is personal.  In the context of your relationship if something happens that some might consider abuse but you don't then its not abusive in your own mind.

If in your own mind something feels abusive then it probably is for you. 

No one else can judge what abuse is to someone else.  Something has stuck in my mind for years and that was a simple explanation of the "rules" of bdsm my first dom had.  He said that the first time he picked up something and hit me with it, it put both him and me outside the "normal" rules and into a space where there was only his sanity and mine to act as a guide.

When you go there then you both have to use your brain to determine what is right for you both.


(in reply to HollyS)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/10/2006 9:27:50 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HollyS
So I tell people the same things that were told to me:  Listen to your gut.  Keeping a journal on your experiences and feelings may be a good way of sorting things out for yourself.  If you want a mentor/friendly ear, having someone of your same orientation can be very helpful.  Do what makes you feel good, don't do what makes you feel bad (for new folks I think this is critical). Educate yourself as much as possible.  And I'm here if you need an ear, anytime.


Holly, I think they would be fortunate to have you....good advice!

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to HollyS)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/10/2006 10:08:54 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin


KoM,
You're response got me thinking.....yeah, dangerous thing I know.....lol.

If the bottom line is that abuse is a topic that is going to have to be ultimately decided between what is and what isn't uniquely in each individual relationship and our individual perspectives will not offer much relevant information to other's situations....are we taking the wrong tack when we discuss things like safety, red flags, things to watch out for, what is and what is not appropriate, etc., with newbies?


I don't consider it an issue to raise discussions of safety, red flags and things to watch for....BUT

and this is a big But... we need to beable to put into context of the individuals and not some universal approach.

person X had this situation and found it to be A

person Y had similiar situation and found it to be B

I believe it is more important to facilate a person to look internal into their own beliefs and views of safety and red flags etc.

Bring situations.. and instead of saying... Stay away from that... ask..."how do you feel about this situation?"  Have a dialogue  show different points of view on the issue.  and then... "Let them make up their own mind".  But to often I see a projection of one's own viewpoint towards the newbie.

They are new.. but that doesn't make them stupid.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/11/2006 1:58:00 AM   
mons


Posts: 2400
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		greetings
 
i did not finish ready the post i did make sure i read most of it is your question why is abuse hard to define because it is not there or it is? now i define abuse as and this is not only myself but many other woman i spoken to, to me it is when someone punches you in the face or slap you unitl you have whiplash. other can be rape as we all know a woman who is ready is moist and willing will try this on a woman who is dry and swollen from being rape so many times she is unable to even move when this person is raping her out of fear she stay still. then there is the emotiona; abuse he name calling whore bitch slut, these can always be arousing to many woman but there is a way that a man who hates women can say it to hurt. a good beating and i do not mean bdsm type but the one where if you wore the wrong shirt that day or the plate was on the wrong side this is aduse if any master or dom or even a domme does this or anyone of the things above you are and may not know it but you an abuser careful how you treat the ones you own they adore you from the ground up and may not say anything, and you may think you being a domme/dom or master. they love and depennd on us for so much love and care. punishing a own one is so different please please i hope we all have the power to control how we treat our loved ones, now if this was not about the post contents i just ranted but i spoke true as i see and know.
 
warm wishes to all
 
mons

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 38
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2]
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... Page: <<   < prev  1 [2]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.078