RE: Do we have a responsibility to give a slave a future in BDSM or Fem dom when we die ? (Full Version)

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enigmaslave -> RE: Do we have a responsibility to give a slave a future in BDSM or Fem dom when we die ? (12/14/2006 4:34:53 AM)

I would like to say thank Y/you,
as an observer to this thread, it is and was very enlightening.



Celeste43 -> RE: Do we have a responsibility to give a slave a future in BDSM or Fem dom when we die ? (12/14/2006 6:35:30 AM)

He could announce that he had given me away but that doesn't mean I would go. Once he doesn't have any more use for me, for whatever reason, then I'm free to go my own way. I am anyway but I choose to go with him, different subject.

I can't imagine another relationship after this. And in the middle of intense grief work is definitely not the time to form a new relationship. Stay home, cry and mourn like healthy people do, don't just jump into the first warm bed you can find.

Besides it sounds very patronizing and disrespectful to the sub to assume they aren't ever going to grow and change not to mention that they aren't capable of meeting someone compatible. He did with you presumably, or did you just buy him at a shop while he was on sale?



toservez -> RE: Do we have a responsibility to give a slave a future in BDSM or Fem dom when we die ? (12/14/2006 8:58:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline

Why would it actually be any diffferent than a vanilla relationship....


I have to agree with this train of thought. If you are the sole income producer and been in a long term relationship it would certainly be the responsible thing to do to make sure your other is taken care of financially and this is true in all relationships and not just M/s. In terms of looking out for the slave if it is not going to another owner type situation then same as real life, friends and family. We slaves are not that mentally weak that we cannot physically take care of ourselves and simply die from missing our owner.

As a slave I did not lose free will and if my Master died to blindly follow orders that effect me that he set up where he is not there to change or adjust let alone my ability and happiness to serve someone I was assigned to comes into the fantasy/arrogance realm. Relationships have universal laws and no matter what thought were put into them making plans to be cared for by another is another relationship and just cannot be assumed happy ever after.

Now I am not saying that if a death is not sudden or some sort of large poly type situation that plans like this are not realistic. I think if plans and communications between all parties are deeply discussed and agreed to that this could work. I just do not think that it cannot involve very strong input from the slave and cannot be something that was agreed to years ago as life and people change.

I relate it to this. Most of us heard if a Master sold a slave to another we would all tell the slave she did not have to serve the new Master or if she eventually left the new Master no one would think she dissed her old Master. Same with the scenario of having other owner lined up, still solely up to the remaining live people.




daddysprop247 -> RE: Do we have a responsibility to give a slave a future in BDSM or Fem dom when we die ? (12/14/2006 9:31:45 AM)

well personally i think it's a very logical, thoughtful thing for an Owner's plans for his slave after his/her death to include them being willed to another Owner. no, it would not be appropriate for everyone in every situation, but for many it's a viable option.

when i became a slave, i had never lived "on my own". i had no experience or knowledge of living an independent life, doing everyday things like going to and from work, driving, paying bills, etc. i just never had an ability to do such things, and on top of that my submissive nature left me extremely vulnerable. left to my own devices, with no one caring for me or protecting me, i'd be on a fast track to self-destruction, very likely death. rather than try and train me to be independent or self-sufficient, and develop these life skills, my Master sees my vulnerability and utter dependence as valueable, precious qualities that he wants to ehance, not erase. therefore, he has made arrangements for me to belong to another Master, should he pass on before me. no, it will not be "happy ever after". if i even manage to keep the vow i made to Daddy to not follow him to the grave, i'm sure i won't be "happy" belonging to someone else. but i will be protected and more importantly, i will maintain my life's purpose, which is service. i also will have the peace of mind and comfort knowing that Daddy is proud of me, even if he is on the other side.



crouchingtigress -> RE: Do we have a responsibility to give a slave a future in BDSM or Fem dom when we die ? (12/14/2006 9:43:07 AM)

We are in complete alignment LOD, all folks in life partnerships should tend to the future of themselves and their partner and prepare for a future where one dies and or they disband.

I dont think my meaning came across clearly, what i was saying was that ones takes any meaningfulness out of the words 'master' and 'slave' if they dont put in some sort of safe guards for what they say they revere as their property...



Najakcharmer -> RE: Do we have a responsability to give a slave a future in BDSM or Femdom when we die ? (12/14/2006 9:48:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: yourMissTress

I cannot answer this question because, as I am told by countless spurned subs, I am "not a real Mistress".


Of course not.  If you will not have hawt naked cyber webcam sex with me and dominate me RIGHT NOW while wearing high heeled shoes, you're not a REAL MISTRESS.  [8|]  Didn't you know that?  It's written in the Big Leather Book of Answers. 



AquaticSub -> RE: Do we have a responsibility to give a slave a future in BDSM or Fem dom when we die ? (12/14/2006 9:51:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Voltare

You seem to contradict yourself.
quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

To me this question depends on the type of relationship you have with your slave. Did your slave consent to being your slave? If he did, then it seems to be he should have complete consent over his next partner.

I think you say it all here.  She consented to be -my- slave.  Nothing implies that right is transferable.  Certainly it's something that would require negotiation separately, but your logic suggests I could take on consenting slaves, box them up, and sell them.
 

 
Where on earth did you get that? Some masters/dominants here do not believe their slave consented and choose them as much as they claimed their slave. If that is your relationship, then yes you can will her away. I don't agree with it, but she will probably let you. And there is probably a nice little niche of slaves who, having trouble finding a master who would love for you to sell them off to good owners. I don't get it, don't really approve but whatever. As long as they are consenting.
 
And I fail to see a contradiction. I stated that it depends on the relationship. It does. There are some who get so lost in their slavery they simply couldn't survive without an owner. While I think it's irresponsible of an owner to let them get that far, it happens. For those people, being willed off is a good thing but I think they should get consent over who they are being willed off too.
 
However, for me? Terrible idea. I serve well and I can survive on my own. He makes sure I stay that way in case something ever happens to him as no one's tomorrow is granted.



CelticPrince -> RE: Do we have a responsability to give a slave a future in BDSM or Femdom when we die ? (12/14/2006 9:56:17 AM)

in my view yes, if you take on a slave then your responsible all the way.

CP



LadyHugs -> RE: Do we have a responsibility to give a slave a future in BDSM or Fem dom when we die ? (12/14/2006 9:57:04 AM)

Dear daddysprop247, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
Your post does remind me of a time a long while back now, that a Master friend transferred ownership of his slave on his death bed.  I was there when the collar was unlocked as the slave bent over his Master in his bed bawling his eyes out so deeply in grief and fear of loosing his owner/Master.  Being a friend to both, this Master gave me his slave, as he knew time drew near to his passing.
 
I do believe there are some incidents where this transfer of ownership can work.  But, it really depends on how close your relationship to the ones involved in their own Master-slave relationship is/was. 
 
I have witnessed, I have experienced and have willingly taken ownership of a couple of slaves at the passing of their Masters.  One was unable to totally be independent due to impairment and equipped to deal with it and the other was very ill themself. 
 
That said lass, when these lad's Masters passed on and went to the other side; only the physical Master perished and did not exist.  However, it is my personal belief that though the physical Master is gone; the spiritual Master still lives and dwells within their slaves.
The slaves manifest their spiritual Master and the Master/Owner who physically follows the one who passed on benefits by the both spirits.
Spirits passed and spirits present.  Only with the spirit's permission within, allows another Master to enter your soul and add to what was.
I give a similiar analogy of the passing of a parent; as child of that parent we remember parental guidence, teaching, words of wisdom, warnings, praises, uplifting and confidence building moments which created the tapestry which makes you (in a general sense) unique.  So, though a parent and or Master; even slave--they imprint on your soul and spirit.  They haven't left --especially their love. 
 
Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs



daddysprop247 -> RE: Do we have a responsibility to give a slave a future in BDSM or Fem dom when we die ? (12/14/2006 10:27:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHugs

Dear daddysprop247, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
Your post does remind me of a time a long while back now, that a Master friend transferred ownership of his slave on his death bed.  I was there when the collar was unlocked as the slave bent over his Master in his bed bawling his eyes out so deeply in grief and fear of loosing his owner/Master.  Being a friend to both, this Master gave me his slave, as he knew time drew near to his passing.
 
I do believe there are some incidents where this transfer of ownership can work.  But, it really depends on how close your relationship to the ones involved in their own Master-slave relationship is/was. 
 
I have witnessed, I have experienced and have willingly taken ownership of a couple of slaves at the passing of their Masters.  One was unable to totally be independent due to impairment and equipped to deal with it and the other was very ill themself. 
 
That said lass, when these lad's Masters passed on and went to the other side; only the physical Master perished and did not exist.  However, it is my personal belief that though the physical Master is gone; the spiritual Master still lives and dwells within their slaves.
The slaves manifest their spiritual Master and the Master/Owner who physically follows the one who passed on benefits by the both spirits.
Spirits passed and spirits present.  Only with the spirit's permission within, allows another Master to enter your soul and add to what was.
I give a similiar analogy of the passing of a parent; as child of that parent we remember parental guidence, teaching, words of wisdom, warnings, praises, uplifting and confidence building moments which created the tapestry which makes you (in a general sense) unique.  So, though a parent and or Master; even slave--they imprint on your soul and spirit.  They haven't left --especially their love. 
 
Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs


Lady Hugs,
thanks for sharing your experience and wisdom on this subject. like you i believe that a cherished loved one's spirit will remain with them forever. that is why it would be so important to me to live as i know my Master would wish me to live, in devoted service to another. i hope the day never comes that i have to say goodbye to him, but if it does, hopefully his spirit looking on and within me will give me the strength to not take the selfish route of suicide. because even if his body can no longer be with me, in my heart i would still feel like i belonged to him and must serve him, always.



Emperor1956 -> RE: Do we have a responsibility to give a slave a future in BDSM or Fem dom when we die ? (12/14/2006 10:42:21 AM)

Many of the replies in this thoughtful thread deal with spirituality, and while I'm very interested in that realm, I'm going to pursue some more concrete thoughts dealing with the mechanics of "passing on" a slave.  If a responsible Mistress or Master decides to provide for her or his slave after his or her death, how does one do so?  How does one enable the slave to have financial security, or to place that security in the hands of a trusted second Owner?

Financial planning is relatively easy, but takes forethought.  Also, of course, it helps to have assets.  While love (and I consider Mastery a kind of love) may flourish without money, money sure makes everything a lot easier. 

The purchase of a life insurance policy on the Owner's life, owned by the slave, is one idea (and yes, I realize that for those of you who believe a slave owns "nothing", this violates that principle, but for me it isn't a critical issue).  If the Owner dies, the death benefit will become the property of the slave.  If this is not acceptable, there are ways to place the death benefit in trust for the slave (and perhaps a trusted second Owner or member of a leather family can become the Trustee).  Of course the problem is someone has to pay for the insurance policy.

I know of one D/s House that for a while professed a rule that when slaves worked outside the house (and there were several slaves that did), while their wages were property of the Owners, a set percentage of all net income was set aside into a fund which belonged to the slave and which was accessed only when the slave left the House for whatever reason.  I've always thought that was a decent, moral stance, although there are significant legal issues in the event of disruption (divorce, bankruptcy, etc.) in the Owners' lives.  Still, funding the "benefit" by this method is not dependent on the Owner's assets, and over time the slave's forced savings could build a substantial "nest egg" for a slave who must go to another situation on the death of his/her Owner.  Again, if the slave is to own nothing, this concept needs to be fundamentally reevaluated.

Ways not to do it?  While the Owner can own everything and by his or her grace bequeath money to a slave on the Owner's death, I see real substantial legal problems with this.  Any bequest by will or other means may well be contested by the Owner's heirs.  Slavery is of course not accorded any legal rights in our society, and therefore a bequest to a "slave" is very vulnerable to attack by legal heirs who might well (1) not recognize and in fact revile the Master/slave relationship and all it embodies and (2) be very greedy.  The family of the Owner -- often family that is estranged and has written off the Owner during his/her lifetime -- sails in under the laws of heirship and claims the assets that were in theory promised to a non-traditional life partner, or for the slave's upkeep.  I've seen this sad result in estates involving same sex couples and nontraditional marriages (including those with a M/s component).  I've also seen careful planning with competent legal help thwart the attempts of heirs to disrupt the plans of estranged -- but wealthy -- kinky family members who die with assets.

Passing a slave on to a new Owner raises all sorts of financial issues.  I applaud the establishment of "leather families" to provide ongoing mentoring and spiritual issues, but are financial concerns addressed?  Does the slave come with a "dowry"?  When Master dies, if money is involved, is it given to the slave to provide to the new Master?  This seems to upset all sorts of power issues -- money is power in our world, and a slave with significant wealth "willed" to a Master with relatively little wealth could surely change the power dynamic.  Does Master will the money to the new Master, and hope for the best?  In a world of honor and integrity, this would be fine.  Of course, we wouldn't have lawyers if we lived in that world, would we?

None of these issues would be present if slavery were acknowledged by law, and if in fact slaves were disposable property.  But except for fantasyland (Gor and the Marketplace come to mind) in fact the real issue of "providing" for a slave, at least financially, has to comport with the law that prevails.  Another solution might be to marry One's slave.  But if that doesn't shift a power dynamic, what does?  And for may of us, this could result in a charge of bigamy!

This was just some lunchtime musing, and I'd be glad to hear what others think, and discuss more, if there is any interest.

E.

(OH...Time for the disclaimer:  I'm not your lawyer.  I don't even know who you are and you don't know who I am.  And if you think you DO know me, I'm still not your lawyer.  If you want legal advice, find a lawyer, hire him or her (or enslave him or her, I guess) and rely on their legal advice.  This post is not legal advice and shouldn't be taken as such.  Objects in mirror are closer than they appear, and your milage may indeed vary.)



xonemasterx -> RE: Do we have a responsibility to give a slave a future in BDSM or Fem dom when we die ? (12/14/2006 11:27:22 AM)

This is a thorny issue that really depends on the parties involved.  It intertwines the emotional and dependent relationship with the rational responsibilities and forward thinking of reality.

Everyone is gonna die.  Everyone should be prepared for that reality with basic documention (insurance, wills, living wills, etc) and personal understanding.

The M/s dynamic usually makes this the Master's domain but every relationship is different.  It still must be addressed and planned for. 

It strikes me a neglectful to not have some basic plan for the slave mapped out and meeting their real and emotional needs.



LadyHugs -> RE: Do we have a responsibility to give a slave a future in BDSM or Fem dom when we die ? (12/14/2006 5:14:43 PM)

Dear Emperor1956, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
In my mind's eyes I see; a "Living Trust" and or a "Revocable Trust" (Known as a Revoke able Trust) would be more of what those in the lifestyle may consider with their local lawyers; as laws in each State and or Commonwealth, Countries and or Nations are different.
 
Unlike a will, a Trust by-passes the courts and Probate.  The person that establishes a Trust can specify who they wish to be Trustee and Co-Trustee, as well as a succession of Trustees, should the previously selected Co-Trustee be unable to perform that function.  And, no--it is not required to be a family member or blood relative; however the lawyers will encourage it.  In the Trust, the founders of that Trust can designate how the 'real property' and 'financial wealth' is to be given to any one or several individuals.

Trusts are no longer just for corporations.  They are for families as well.

And, I will add, that I am not in a position to take on any legal cases, criminal and or civil, business, foreign and or corporate law.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs



patina -> RE: Do we have a responsibility to give a slave a future in BDSM or Fem dom when we die ? (12/14/2006 10:51:49 PM)

I wonder on this.  It seems in the majority of cases neither side of their families the D/s knows they are in the lifestyle.  Before you start setting up a new life for your sub/slave don't you feel she/he needs to even be allowed to be included in the final act of her master.  His vanilla family needs to know about her and let her be included so he can start the grieving process better.


Just wondering about this aspect of this life. 


Patina  



LordODiscipline -> RE: Do we have a responsibility to give a slave a future in BDSM or Fem dom when we die ? (12/15/2006 4:05:11 AM)

I cannot speak for anyone else -
 
But, one of the first things I did after a letting the girl move in was set a time and place for my family to meet her...
 
It is another thread entirely - but, I don't know how someone who serves me can possibly be a "secret" in my family. As she is basically 'attached to my side' she is slightly tough to ignore when I go visit with other family members.
 
Some members know about my life - others might only suspect - but, they all know that "the girl" is significant to me and after several years of being together, that provisions were made for her life should mine end.
 
Of course it does help when my brother is executor of my will AND is trustworthy.
 
~J
PS: Just in case - I live about 450 miles from my nearest relation - so this is situation such as "The Waltons" (Good night John Bukakee Boi!!)


quote:

ORIGINAL: patina

I wonder on this.  It seems in the majority of cases neither side of their families the D/s knows they are in the lifestyle.  Before you start setting up a new life for your sub/slave don't you feel she/he needs to even be allowed to be included in the final act of her master.  His vanilla family needs to know about her and let her be included so he can start the grieving process better.


Just wondering about this aspect of this life. 


Patina  



Squeakers -> RE: Do we have a responsibility to give a slave a future in BDSM or Fem dom when we die ? (12/15/2006 4:17:27 AM)

quote:

The greatest gift anyone can give to another, is the confidence to know they can survive when you are gone.
Kyst


       Reading through all the posts---Kyst said exactly what I was thinking.  



gretchenS -> RE: Do we have a responsibility to give a slave a future in BDSM or Fem dom when we die ? (12/15/2006 5:48:22 AM)

Mmm... Taking back my post... ERASING : : : : REWIND



Voltare -> RE: Do we have a responsibility to give a slave a future in BDSM or Fem dom when we die ? (12/15/2006 6:31:49 AM)

Aquatic,

I do apologize.  I saw 'he' in one spot, and thought 'she' - changing the context completely.

quote:

If he did, then it seems to be he should have complete consent over his next partner.


Reading 'he' as 'she' it sounded to me like you were saying the Dominant should have complete control over the subs next partner.  I read too fast, and I'm sorry for that.





LadyHugs -> RE: Do we have a responsibility to give a slave a future in BDSM or Fem dom when we die ? (12/15/2006 4:19:12 PM)

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
I am not directing this post to any one individual and or post.  However, I wish to add to the good flow of this thread.
 
In any relationship, individuals have to protect themselves just as much as protecting their loved ones. 
 
It really takes soul searching and also a lot of conversations with the other partner.  This world is not designed to address every mini detail of everybody's personal little world, relationship.  The best advice I can offer, is to seek out a kinky professional lawyer in your particular location.  I would check that kinky professional's reputation as well as their standing in the courts.  In the USA, there is the American Bar Association and there are State and or Commonwealth Bar Associations, e.g. Virginia Bar Association, which addresses only Virginia Attorneys, complaints, suspensions and such.  Then, I would suggest having a presentation, to where questions and answers can be posed.  There are also law libraries around.  The courts often have a law library, to which any person can look up the law themself, do research. Law schools have law libraries, sometimes they have a wider selection, as they have students from all over the country, so they have law books for all states.
 
Those who seek a lifestyle relationship, will need to consider how best to introduce their slave(s)/submissive(s) to their relatives and friends, outside the scene.  It would be folly, to be able to micro assess other's relationship situations--you (in general sense) know your family, friends and such best; I do not.  It really is in your (in general sense) hands.  And, the individuals in this BDSM, D/s, M/s and or S&M relationship really need to put things on the table, honestly so; when it comes to family, employers/employees, certain restrictions and the like.  In creating a tactic which best suits your (in general sense) needs, then approach those relatives and friends, to aire both of your whims, desires, wishes and or expectations orally in support and or in addition to any legal paperwork, such as Trusts, wills and such; as to establish fact over assumptions about what you (in general terms) wish to see happen when the worst may happen.
 
I would also strongly advise having a "Power of Attorney" and a "Living Will" and may wish to write a form letter to your personal doctors, as to whom you wish to have at your bed side, allow to visit, handle your affairs and the like. 
 
So many times, people prepare legally quite well for death however, they do not prepare for incapacities, such as strokes and in ability to function, while alive.  It really is difficult to prepare for so many what if situations and or circumstances.  But, this is one topic, as difficult and unpleasant as it is; must be talked over between your partners in a relationship as well as relatives and anybody who has an interest in your life and or well being and or affairs.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs



rukna -> RE: Do we have a responsibility to give a slave a future in BDSM or Fem dom when we die ? (12/16/2006 12:14:51 AM)

i belive as a wife you surely have a responsibility to honor the vows you had taken



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