RE: Punishing Masochists

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Noah -> RE: Punishing Masochists (12/10/2006 6:55:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PlayfulOne If one felt there needed to be a punishment you would punish them the same as anyone else. Everyone is an individual there is no "punishment" laid out in the handbook. The purpose of the punishment would be to disuade the behavior from happening again so the actual punishment would be something they would not want to repeat. One persons punishment would be anothers joy so choose wisely. Regarding the bolded text: The purpose of the punishment could vary as much as anything else can vary among human beings as they seek, find, and create meanings in their lives. I'm grateful to the several people who have posted since playfulone who by doing so illustrated just a few choices from the vast bouquet of meanings that punishment can have in a particular relationship between two particular people. As to the OP, unless one had some idea of the sense in which you are using the word punishment and furthermore the range of meanings it may have for you and for your partner, the question is so broad that one could productively answer it only by a sort of coincidence. You might almost as well ask: "How do you do something to another person?"

DominaSmartass -> RE: Punishing Masochists (12/10/2006 6:56:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin I apologize LotusSong....and anyone else who takes offense at this but this topic drives me up a wall. I can understand "punishment" when it is done in the context of "oh you bad girl, you did______.....you know you're going to have to be punished now...drop your drawers and come here". It's a great reason to have an impromptu scene. Yes, indeed! But punishment in the context of trying to actually correct a behavior issue.....nope....just don't get it. In my own personal opinion, we are supposed to be responsible adults here. Responsible adults hold themselves accountable for their actions. They make mistakes and they learn from making those mistakes. If you are in a relationship, chances are that you have a desire to make that a fulfilling experience for you and your partner. We all make mistakes from time to time. That should negate the need for punishment. Couldn't agree with you more. Glad to know there are others who see it this way. I may enjoy playing Daddy/girl but I don't actually want to be a parent! If knowing she's done something to make me unhappy is not enough to make her want to improve then there's a larger problem.

DominaSmartass -> RE: Punishing Masochists (12/10/2006 7:00:32 PM)
quote: I am one of those subs for whom the real "punishment" is that I have disapointed or shamed the man who is my entire world, a look of dissapointment from him is like a knife going into my guts. Now I am a responsible adult and I can control myself however for me a punishment is a clensing, a catharsis as it were, when it is done, it is over, a line is drawn and the slate is clean and I am redeemed, things are well again in my world and I can let it go. If not punished, or rather, if not given that line drawn underneath i have a tendency to punish myself, dwell on the dissapointment I caused, brood and it will chip away at me inside, I'm not saying thats right or wrong but it's the way i am. I fully understand the punishment for absolution and closure because that is the way my mind works I know many who feel the same way. What's most important then, is to make sure the dom and sub are on the same page. The worst thing that can happen is when a dom feels punishment is helpful when it really is harmful to the sub or on the flipside if the dom does not acknowledge the sub's true need for punishment when it exists. If both people can communicate and agree and balance their needs then all should be good no matter which philosophy is subscribed to.

LotusSong -> RE: Punishing Masochists (12/10/2006 7:06:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Noah quote: ORIGINAL: PlayfulOne If one felt there needed to be a punishment you would punish them the same as anyone else. Everyone is an individual there is no "punishment" laid out in the handbook. The purpose of the punishment would be to disuade the behavior from happening again so the actual punishment would be something they would not want to repeat. One persons punishment would be anothers joy so choose wisely. Regarding the bolded text: The purpose of the punishment could vary as much as anything else can vary among human beings as they seek, find, and create meanings in their lives. I'm grateful to the several people who have posted since playfulone who by doing so illustrated just a few choices from the vast bouquet of meanings that punishment can have in a particular relationship between two particular people. As to the OP, unless one had some idea of the sense in which you are using the word punishment and furthermore the range of meanings it may have for you and for your partner, the question is so broad that one could productively answer it only by a sort of coincidence. You might almost as well ask: "How do you do something to another person?" Take it as a question for a newby. It's really not that deep :)

LotusSong -> RE: Punishing Masochists (12/10/2006 7:13:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin I apologize LotusSong....and anyone else who takes offense at this but this topic drives me up a wall. Never apologize for an opinion ;) When I look back at it all.. it was an argument expressed in BDSM style. Chit-chat was not getting through. So I donned my domina attitude and he listened. There was a LOT of aftercare done and face to face talking it out afterward. Not to worry :)

DominaSmartass -> RE: Punishing Masochists (12/10/2006 7:17:37 PM)
quote: I discaplined my sub once having another domme met the punishment. He was going to take it until he passed out (he said). Friend Domme took him to task and ADVISED him strongly to safeword and then go find his Mistresse "..if he still had one" Thanks for sharing this story. I am just a little confused about the first part here, not sure exactly what you are saying, though I'd like to. Would you mind elaborating? I would also really like to know more about what you were referring to when you said you'd never do this again - that it was early in your dominance. I am early in my dominance and I'd like to learn from others' mistakes. I would really appreciate it if you'd say more. Thanks.

FelinePersuasion -> RE: Punishing Masochists (12/10/2006 7:24:29 PM)
with methods they don't find delightfull or fun, With non corperal means like earlie bed time no tv before bed no pc. find what is precious to them like for me my pc and restrict it. quote: ORIGINAL: LotusSong How DO you punish a Masochist?

Voltare -> RE: Punishing Masochists (12/10/2006 7:55:41 PM)
I've always been in the camp that you don't use corporal punishment on adults. The two slaves I tangled with that claimed to 'need' corporal punishment not only didn't learn from it, but in fact weren't very good slaves in the first place. This shouldn't be confused with situations where slaves feel they must be punished. When gretchen acts up, I usually spank her. I doubt that it hurts her much, and I know it hurts a lot more when I step on her foot on accident. It's the act of punishing her, so that she feels the emotional release from the transgression that she craves. Essentially, it's a bit like a priest confessing a sinner. It's still painful, but she feels better afterwards. I think.

LotusSong -> RE: Punishing Masochists (12/10/2006 8:00:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DominaSmartass quote: I discaplined my sub once having another domme met the punishment. He was going to take it until he passed out (he said). Friend Domme took him to task and ADVISED him strongly to safeword and then go find his Mistresse "..if he still had one" Thanks for sharing this story. I am just a little confused about the first part here, not sure exactly what you are saying, though I'd like to. Would you mind elaborating? I would also really like to know more about what you were referring to when you said you'd never do this again - that it was early in your dominance. I am early in my dominance and I'd like to learn from others' mistakes. I would really appreciate it if you'd say more. Thanks. Earlier in the day, he had met for a lunch after a work trip.He reveal an activity that I felt was unbecoming of my slave. I was hurt and embarrased by what he did. He looked shocked.. he didn't see the connection. That evening, there was a planned get together of my Domme friend's and their subs. What he didn't understand in the vanilla venue earlier in the day.. I was going to express in the D/s venue that evening. I double team with thia friend at times. When it comes to paddeling, she has the mean equipment to do it. She also has a stronger arm. My having him be discaplined by another with me out of the room hurt him. I knew that. My friend and I had layed everything out carefully beforehand. Early in my dominance meant we had only been together about 3 years at that point. We'd see each other about once a month. Even after that time.. there are things you don't know about a person. I didn't realise how deeply he cared about me as person. Up until then, it was all play. Knowing his heart and the person he is after that, I realized that physical pain is taken as a personal challenge between he and the implement. If I wanted to get through to him, I had to hit the emotional buttons. I did it way too well. The activity I felt so embarrassed by would be seen as nothing to me this day. I condiioned it out of him. (please don't ask what it is. I'll never tell)

FelinePersuasion -> RE: Punishing Masochists (12/10/2006 8:09:46 PM)
Actually not to get off topic here, but in my relation ships deciding not to contact me for punishment is not allowed, and is grounds to break my trust in my dom and make him a single dom. In my relationships it's a serious offense to withdraw any contact with them, And it makes a behavior worse not better. I had a dom who's method of dealing with things was simply not to deal, and left to brude I became pychically ill from the stress mentally and emotionally of being unable to stop crying for days and days, the fear of being released over a simple slip up yada yada. so I make it quite clear up front ignoreing me and withdrawing from me will not be tolerated. And fortunatly my new Dom agree's with drawing is NOT an apropriate method for us. quote: ORIGINAL: Aine Ideas that I personally think would work well for anyone, not just masochists are things like lack of physical contact with their Dominant, silence from their Dominant,

Daddysredhead -> RE: Punishing Masochists (12/10/2006 8:10:59 PM)
Daddy used to have a sub who was a pain slut, so "corporal punishment" wouldn't work with her. He had several ways of punishing her when she went over the edge. He did various things, some made an impression on her and discouraged bad behavior, such as "no contact" for a week - no phone, e-mail, visits, etc... nothing. That made a pretty big statement to her and hurt worse than a paddle.

DiurnalVampire -> RE: Punishing Masochists (12/10/2006 8:16:28 PM)
I had a pain slut one time. Never again. I never enjoyed what he wanted, he didnt enjoy waht I wanted, and when he misbehaved it was entirely too difficult to reprimand him. You have to find someones buttons to punish them properly, masochists or not. I have never physically punished Angel, even though he isnt a maso. I have things that work much better, combinations of humiliation and mental control. Its al a matter of knowing thwta will get your point acros and making sure they know thats what you are doing. If they know its a punishment, it will work as one. DV

Aine -> RE: Punishing Masochists (12/10/2006 8:38:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FelinePersuasion Actually not to get off topic here, but in my relation ships deciding not to contact me for punishment is not allowed, and is grounds to break my trust in my dom and make him a single dom. In my relationships it's a serious offense to withdraw any contact with them, And it makes a behavior worse not better. I had a dom who's method of dealing with things was simply not to deal, and left to brude I became pychically ill from the stress mentally and emotionally of being unable to stop crying for days and days, the fear of being released over a simple slip up yada yada. so I make it quite clear up front ignoreing me and withdrawing from me will not be tolerated. And fortunatly my new Dom agree's with drawing is NOT an apropriate method for us. quote: ORIGINAL: Aine Ideas that I personally think would work well for anyone, not just masochists are things like lack of physical contact with their Dominant, silence from their Dominant, An honest misunderstanding of my statement. My apologies for not being clearer. I'm not saying in the context of those that don't live together. I'm talking 24/7 type contact (not to be mistaken with 24/7tpe). I'm not talking no phone calls, no online contact. I'm talking playing on those things that the sub craves/needs the most. Showing the dissapointment, verbally making it clear about that disappointment and leaving the sub to think about what it was that they did. You can be in the same room and still deny any kind of physical contact, conversation, kinda like how a child is sent to the corner to think about what they did wrong. I'm not saying stop communication. Communication is key, especially in this type of situation. But that initial communication regarding the transgression and discussion of what needs to be done to correct the situation, giving the sub time to think/write about what happened and what they need to do to correct their behavior, and THEN coming back to communication, conversation, physical contact and finally getting past the problem and moving on with life. And trust me, this can all happen within the span of less than half a day. In no way was I thinking about what most people might have gotten from that statement, stopping communication with no communication, leaving the sub to think they were abandoned. I for one, would NEVER condone that in my relationships as well. edited because I have a crappy and tempermental spacebar Also to add that my last vanilla relationship had a lot of times much like what you described. It's not healthy in any way. And if I felt like I was being subjected to that again, in or out of D/s...I'd tell whoever was doing it to either wise up and act like an adult or to fuck off.

LeMis -> RE: Punishing Masochists (12/10/2006 8:39:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LotusSong I discaplined my sub once having another domme met the punishment. He was going to take it until he passed out (he said). Friend Domme took him to task and ADVISED him strongly to safeword and then go find his Mistresse "..if he still had one" This took place at a gathering at my home. I had retired to my dungeon in back of the house where I sat in the dark, waiting. He found me and knelt. Slave and I had a ritual where by we would begin every meeting with me putting his collar on him and in the end.. removing it. I had removed his collar before the pain part of it. He found me holding it when he knelt at my feet. I told him he will either represent us with dignity or he can pack his bags. I tossed it on the floor before him and as I left the room, I told him it's his choice. Put it on and join me once he has chosen or simply walk out the door. It was no more than two minutes and he was again seated on the floor by my side. His head was down and when I reached to lift it to see his eyes.. I saw a pair of dialted pupils with fear in them. I told him it's ok. Afterward, we talked and he said the worse part was putting his collar on by himself. It was the loneliest he had ever felt. WOW, reading this brought tears to my eyes and a heavy heart. Thanks for sharing.

DominaSmartass -> RE: Punishing Masochists (12/10/2006 9:17:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LotusSong quote: ORIGINAL: DominaSmartass quote: I discaplined my sub once having another domme met the punishment. He was going to take it until he passed out (he said). Friend Domme took him to task and ADVISED him strongly to safeword and then go find his Mistresse "..if he still had one" Thanks for sharing this story. I am just a little confused about the first part here, not sure exactly what you are saying, though I'd like to. Would you mind elaborating? I would also really like to know more about what you were referring to when you said you'd never do this again - that it was early in your dominance. I am early in my dominance and I'd like to learn from others' mistakes. I would really appreciate it if you'd say more. Thanks. Earlier in the day, he had met for a lunch after a work trip.He reveal an activity that I felt was unbecoming of my slave. I was hurt and embarrased by what he did. He looked shocked.. he didn't see the connection. That evening, there was a planned get together of my Domme friend's and their subs. What he didn't understand in the vanilla venue earlier in the day.. I was going to express in the D/s venue that evening. I double team with thia friend at times. When it comes to paddeling, she has the mean equipment to do it. She also has a stronger arm. My having him be discaplined by another with me out of the room hurt him. I knew that. My friend and I had layed everything out carefully beforehand. Early in my dominance meant we had only been together about 3 years at that point. We'd see each other about once a month. Even after that time.. there are things you don't know about a person. I didn't realise how deeply he cared about me as person. Up until then, it was all play. Knowing his heart and the person he is after that, I realized that physical pain is taken as a personal challenge between he and the implement. If I wanted to get through to him, I had to hit the emotional buttons. I did it way too well. The activity I felt so embarrassed by would be seen as nothing to me this day. I condiioned it out of him. (please don't ask what it is. I'll never tell) Thanks for explaining, I get what you were saying now. My problem is that I am a sadist and I think I would get pleasure out of seeing someone punished, even if not in the play sense, but for real. I actually have witnessed something similar to what you described, one domme allowing another to punish her slave for something he'd done. I was there and it did turn me on immensely. And theoretically, I don't think that's right. I don't want to be turned on if I have to punish someone, I want to be turned on when I play with my masochist :) I know precisely what you mean about him seeing it as a "personal challenge" I've seen subs who think that a scene involving pain is a battle of wills between themselves and the implement, or even the dominant. They will refuse to safeword no matter how bad the scene gets for them because they either want to show their strength or prove something. Or maybe they want to be able to endure whatever the dominant dishes out. Either way, I think this mentality can be sort of scary. At least if you know this is the case you can play accordingly but it would be bad to play with someone in this mentality when you don't even know it and think the lack of safeword using is simply because they don't need it.

Mavis -> RE: Punishing Masochists (12/11/2006 4:35:54 AM)
yanno, i often read "my worst punishment is just knowing i have dissapointed Master, Mistress, Dom, Domme" and i just cannot relate to that. i hate knowing i have dissapointed the Hims, but i am pretty realisitc.. i have dissappinted Them, and others, countless times, and i will do so again. It's not a fearful, disgusting, scarey or uncomfortable thing for me even. Dissapointing our loved ones .. just.. is. i need consequence. Natural consequence is a good reminder for me, and physical or not, something that brings cathartic release helps me move from one place to another in ways that "having dissappinted" never does. i suppose to a Dominant ear, that sounds like a laisse' faire attitude, "Oh, dissapointed You say? Welp, been there, done that!".. but it's honest. if humans really quaked at angering our loved ones the way most submissives claim to, there would be no divorce, no dissention ever, and all Dominant partners would live and die happy with the first sub or slave they took on. How fantasy is that?

SusanofO -> RE: Punishing Masochists (12/11/2006 5:40:12 AM)
I am not sure I am a masochist (I think in some ways, I might be an emotional masochist, (but not really, because I need to know the other person really, truly cares about me too much for that. I dunno how one tells if they are one, really, it's all so subjective). But - Anyway, to answer the question - I think if someone really wanted to punish me, they could ask me to participate in something on my "Tolerates" list (which has increased, after more thought). I really am not a fan of: Watersports, Knifeplay, or Face-Slapping. I don't actually hate or fear any of those things enough to make them hard limits, but don't like them (or the idea of them) - they either disgust, hurt, or scare me enough to not want to do them unless "necessary". If the other person did enjoy them, however, and just wasn't doing them with me because I merely tolerated them and they didn't want to "push things", then if they wanted to punish me, maybe they could "indulge" in them, I suppose. Either that, or else get into a discussion w/me about how they believe God doesn't exist that goes on for hours and hours (that, for sure, would almost make me want to off myself). Hehe. (Been there, done that. About fifty times has been enough of that, though). I know! Maybe they could slap me hard on the face, in church, while waving a huge, sharp Chef's knife at me, and saying: "You don't need to believe in God, or the Devil. I am your Devil. I am your God "(or something like that). As a Pisces, this would work well with the martyr complex I apparently have, too (according to the BDSM horoscope site I saw on here two days ago). On second thought I am not sure that would work. I have a tendency to laugh out loud (no kidding) when I am really scared, sometimes. The priest in the church tabernacle might be offended, if one was there (and I seriously wouldn't want to do that - we'd have to "tread lightly" there)...but maybe it would work - and make more of an impact (being a sort of "triple whammy") and thus maybe be a "time-saver", too. And yes, I am joking. - Susan (aka Audrey II - (Mavis is Audrey I)

MsOpal -> RE: Punishing Masochists (12/11/2006 6:58:01 AM)
I do not "quake" and my mistakes seldome "anger" Argent. That does not mean I feel good if I mess up. I am an adult and "punishment" is not going to make me behave any differently, but then I do not misbehave on purpose or to get attention, I hate bratty behavior so I do not engage in it. In our relationship Argent values obdience and does not want to ahve to enforce it. There have been a few times when I honestly forget to do something or realized I had not done something correctly and yes, for me, in those times, knowing that I dissapointed him or felt like I had let him down in some way, my own feelings were far worse than anything a punishment would have made me feel. We both enjoy "pain" as a sadist and a masochist, so we use that for 'enjoyment' and have agreed that pain as in a punishment spanking or caning would just not work. We also agree that humiliation has no place on our arrangement. We do use rewards for something well done or pleasing. This is only us and what we have come to realize works and does not work for us. As for no dissention ... not! I am expected to speak freely, with respect, if I do not agree whether it is about a household decision or about a "D/s" decision, knowing that my opinion will be listened to and considered, but the end decision is not mine to make. Since we have been together over 27 years the way we have worked things out for us does seem to work for us. It will not be the way everyone works things out, but my feelings when I know I have disappointed him are not some fantasy. Each person, couple, relationship needs to find it's own balance and it takes trial and error and much patience and communication to find the right balance for each. Just my feelings ... MsOpal

SweetSarijane -> RE: Punishing Masochists (12/11/2006 9:27:45 AM)
Just because someone is a masochist however heavy a one, doesn't mean they can't be effectively punished with pain. There is a difference between pain in play and pain in punishment. That said, I am an adult and as such don't feel that punishment is necessary so much as having what I did wrong brought to my attention and discussing it with my Dom so we are both on the same page. For me that is what will help correct it more than a spanking or corner time or what have you ever would. Bringing it to my attention and telling me why it was wrong and how it affected Him as well as discussing ways to keep it from happening in future will enable me to self correct and adjust or change the behavior.

Devilslilsister -> RE: Punishing Masochists (12/11/2006 10:08:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FelinePersuasion Actually not to get off topic here, but in my relation ships deciding not to contact me for punishment is not allowed, and is grounds to break my trust in my dom and make him a single dom. In my relationships it's a serious offense to withdraw any contact with them, And it makes a behavior worse not better. I had a dom who's method of dealing with things was simply not to deal, and left to brude I became pychically ill from the stress mentally and emotionally of being unable to stop crying for days and days, the fear of being released over a simple slip up yada yada. so I make it quite clear up front ignoreing me and withdrawing from me will not be tolerated. And fortunatly my new Dom agree's with drawing is NOT an apropriate method for us. quote: ORIGINAL: Aine Ideas that I personally think would work well for anyone, not just masochists are things like lack of physical contact with their Dominant, silence from their Dominant, Same here. Things just get worse. I take on the attitude of "screw you if you want to be like that - do i look like i care?" i throw up walls, insulate myself in them and i convince myself very well that i dont care. To me that is "emotional hurt" and i deal very poorly with it. Emotional hurt - is the quickest way (IMO) to get some one to say "go F yourself" be it in manner, voice, attitude or obedience.

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