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Self labeling. - 2/17/2005 9:14:08 PM

Bwana55419

Posts: 22
Joined: 1/1/2004
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I keep running into statements like a real master does X, a real slave does Y. It is worse than trying to get Christians to reach a consensus on the Bible, and they have the benefit of just having the one book.

It feels like so many are caught up in the rules and procedures that they forget that in the end they are dealing with real people who’s thinking they will never truly comprehend. The world is full of shades of gray, and you would think of all the people in the world people on the fringe should understand this concept.

If someone wants to be lead around on a leash, drink piss from someone’s ass; and still say they are a Dom; I am wholly supportive. It is how they perceive reality that is important not anyone else.

Post #: 1

RE: Self labeling. - 2/17/2005 9:38:03 PM

MidnightWriter

Posts: 131
Joined: 2/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bwana55419

I keep running into statements like a real master does X, a real slave does Y. It is worse than trying to get Christians to reach a consensus on the Bible, and they have the benefit of just having the one book.

My standards are simple. When someone trots out the "REAL Dom" or "REAL Sub" labels when they're trying to encourage a particular behavior, that's an attempt to dominate via straw man - a "community standard" that is really imaginary.

Such attempts to dominate are almost always without prior negotiation, and without consent. The proper response is to laugh them off of the stage.

A real dominant does whatever it is that they wish, within the realm of consent. A real submissive does whatever their dominant wishes, within the realm of consent. If they have no dominant, they must be in charge of themselves.

I have no idea what the amazing soy substitute dominants and submissives do - I've never met one.

(in reply to Bwana55419)

Post #: 2

RE: Self labeling. - 2/18/2005 3:57:15 AM

ShiftedJewel

Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
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And "real" men don't cry............ I really do hate labels. I asked a gay friend once "If I'm straight, what does that make you?" She said "bent". I laughed till I damn near cried. And I agree Bwana, I love my shades of gray and to those that think it's all just black and white, remember.... don't take life so seriously, you'll never get out of it alive.

Jewel

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Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

(in reply to Bwana55419)

Post #: 3

RE: Self labeling. - 2/18/2005 5:20:01 AM

EmeraldSlave2

Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bwana55419
If someone wants to be lead around on a leash, drink piss from someone’s ass; and still say they are a Dom; I am wholly supportive. It is how they perceive reality that is important not anyone else.

If there's anything worse than throwing about "SSC" in bdsm, it's throwing around the words "real" and "true."

It amazes me how people exclaim how happy they are that they've found bdsm and can be who they've always wanted, and then turn right around and start boxing themselves and everyone into what you "can" and "can't" do. I've heard it all from how the Owner isn't a real dom because he lets me have sex with others, to I'm not a real slave because I don't always wear the collar.

But it's not going to stop, so we go on.

(in reply to Bwana55419)

Post #: 4

RE: Self labeling. - 2/18/2005 8:07:31 AM

ProtagonistLily

Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
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quote:

I keep running into statements like a real master does X, a real slave does Y. It is worse than trying to get Christians to reach a consensus on the Bible, and they have the benefit of just having the one book.

It feels like so many are caught up in the rules and procedures that they forget that in the end they are dealing with real people who’s thinking they will never truly comprehend. The world is full of shades of gray, and you would think of all the people in the world people on the fringe should understand this concept.

If someone wants to be lead around on a leash, drink piss from someone’s ass; and still say they are a Dom; I am wholly supportive. It is how they perceive reality that is important not anyone else.

Well, I never met a "Real" Dom or sub I ever liked, and I've been around a while in the scene. What it says to me, more than anything, is this is a person with 'issues'. I've always sort of felt that "Dominance" and/or "submission" was like pornography...I know it when I see it. Being told by some yutz they are "real" tends to make me immediately suspect.

There are things I do in the name of "Kink" that others don't and vice versa. Do these practices hold a secondary legitimizing factor? Not where I was raised in the lifestyle. If what you do makes you happy, cool. What I do makes me happy and I really defy anyone's criticism. Anyone who wants to judge me by what I do, rather than who I am, has no business around me anyway. That's simply not how I operate.

Bwana, I hear your frustration and share it. Unfortunately, the societal subset of kinksters, both in 'online-only' and in the Real Life scene, are just that; a subset of society at large. You find the same divas, the same real people and the same people with issues that you do elsewhere.

The trick is, being comfortable in who and what you are and letting these "Real" people fester in their own insecurity.

Lily

_____________________________

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

(in reply to Bwana55419)

Post #: 5

RE: Self labeling. - 2/18/2005 8:44:07 AM

Darthbetta

Posts: 314
Joined: 12/16/2004
Status: offline

well said

Some people need to take the blinders off, take a step back, and re evaluate their own frame of minds as to their "rules".

I recently was called " Unorthodox" and "out of controll".... yet in reality I was having a very "random pattern" of spanks with a spoon on my womans fine darrieare. I was acting silly, and we were both having a great time.

apparently that was " OH NOES !!!!! THEY ARE NOT BEING PROPER !" and making a "mochery" fo the BDSM lifestyle.

ummmmmmmmm HELOOOOO... if you can't laugh , don't bother to cry into your own black kettle

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

Post #: 6

RE: Self labeling. - 2/18/2005 9:09:10 AM

krikket

Posts: 1183
Joined: 11/17/2004
From: Washington, DC Metro Area
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Couldn't agree more. In fact when i hear/read the words "true" or "real" i stop listening/reading PDQ. Personally i love the shades of gray, or any other color, for that matter. It's what gives us the texture and taste of someone, of a relationship, and keeps me interested. i don't live a cookie cutter life, and won't want to be made into one -- it's really as simple as that.

Cheers
jimini

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by A. Nin

When your heart speaks take good notes.

(in reply to Bwana55419)

Post #: 7

RE: Self labeling. - 2/18/2005 9:28:35 AM

RealityFix

Posts: 156
Joined: 8/12/2004
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I think "shades of grey" is just another way a modern society of mediocrity attempts to use rationalizations to justify "doing your own thing".

You can use all sorts of trite arguments to try to rationalize why a dog might actually be a cat.

But it's still a dog,and no amount of idiotic justifications will make it other then that.

< Message edited by RealityFix -- 2/18/2005 9:32:24 AM >

(in reply to krikket)

Post #: 8

RE: Self labeling. - 2/18/2005 9:46:50 AM

EmeraldSlave2

Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityFix
But it's still a dog,and no amount of idiotic justifications will make it other then that.

However, we're talking orientations- which can only be known innately. You can't look at a person on the street and say "he's a dom!" and expect everyone else to agree with you- there is no justification for that. There's not even a genetic difference that we know of.

Unless you set up a set of characteristics which define "dom" and "sub" and get everyone to agree on that set of charactertistics, it pretty much IS up to each person. It would be silly to expect others to just agree with your own self-label, but that doesn't mean you're wrong and they are right.

One of my favorite jokes is that you aren't a real slave until you've been told at least 5 times that you aren't a real slave. :)

(in reply to RealityFix)

Post #: 9

RE: Self labeling. - 2/18/2005 10:43:58 AM

Voltare

Posts: 841
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Santiago, Chile
Status: offline

As this arguement seems to dominate the boards lately, it seems a bit like an angry mob with torches moving in a direction to burn.... what?

On the majority of occasions that I have heard 'a True _____ does/doesn't do _____' are usually precautionary statements or generalizations, such as "A true Dominant doesn't have to have to go around telling everyone how dominant they are, they simply show it" or "real slaves have feelings too." At the same time, in private, I might discuss with friends people that I think are good at their art (i.e. I think that Mz XXXXX is a good Domina) or not so good (slave X should really be holding her owners leash.) These sorts of criticsm aren't appropriate in public, I think, but it's human nature (and not necessarily a bad thing) to identify the qualities and skills in different people that we like or do not like. I can confidently say that I have known a few bad Dominants, and a few bad slaves, and that I have known people who are clearly not interested in the lifestyle, but rather are simply looking for an online fantasy, or a real life way to inflict pain on others (serious emotional, mental, and physical) as a sociopath.

Labels only mean what we want them to mean. When I use the word slave, it will obviously have a different meaning then when a southeast asian whore house owner uses the word. Usually, when people use the terms, a few minutes of conversation will demonstrate what they really mean by it (i.e. 24/7 collar, cage, life of misery and solitude, or just a weekend a month of heavy play.)

Stephan

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(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

Post #: 10

RE: Self labeling. - 2/18/2005 11:44:35 AM

knkywch

Posts: 53
Joined: 7/23/2004
From: Cal-iFORN-eye-yay
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityFix

You can use all sorts of trite arguments to try to rationalize why a dog might actually be a cat.

But it's still a dog,and no amount of idiotic justifications will make it other then that.

Well, but then we back up into the vague and mysterious realm of language and naming and of perception. The words "cat" and "dog" are assigned symbols for a set of characteristics (that we communicate ALSO using words which are symbols). I agree that what is... IS. However, the concept of objective is always obscured by the subjective filter of each person's world view.

We may both be looking at the same thing, but experience it differently based on a multitude of variable things such as history, chemistry, biology, level of understanding, and so forth.

I do agree with the original post and am also leery of those who think that their rules and labels are the right ones and anything else is wrong. AND, on one level, I feel glad and relieved when these undamentalists spout such tripe... helps me to know who they are so I can steer clear of them.

Regards,
kw

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I don't think I'm gay. I don't think I'm straight. I think I'm just slutty. Where's MY parade? -Margaret Cho-

(in reply to RealityFix)

Post #: 11

RE: Self labeling. - 2/18/2005 11:08:42 PM

Bwana55419

Posts: 22
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

The issues I have are not with those who claim to be a “real Dom”, but simply those who profess to know the “True” definition.
If someone has proof, instead of conjecture that their point is correct I wish they would share it; instead of spouting off with puffery.

I don’t want anyone’s support for doing my own thing, and I am happy with my mediocrity. I do my “own thing” sans label.

(in reply to knkywch)

Post #: 12

RE: Self labeling. - 2/18/2005 11:15:05 PM

GentleLady

Posts: 356
Joined: 2/1/2005
Status: offline

I enjoyed Your post Darthbetta. I dislike rules even though I know that some are needed for the smooth running of society in general.

I am Me...I am a human being who breathes in and out (mostly), feels a heartbeat (usually), has emotions, thoughts, and ideas. I look at My body and see it labeled as female gender. I think that qualifies Me to believe that I exist. Any other 'labels' I choose to place on Myself are ones I am comfortable wearing. Others are welcome to place any 'labels' (and their restrictions) on Me that they wish to. This does not obligate Me in any way to following those rules or believing in their validity. I have decided that I have value for who I am and I am the only One that matters to.

I cannot even colour within the lines much less stay within the box.

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All things are possible to those who have patience, try, and are willing to learn.

(in reply to Darthbetta)

Post #: 13

RE: Self labeling. - 2/19/2005 1:10:26 AM

OddManOut

Posts: 5
Status: offline

As with most things I've seen where there are too many participants to ever agree on clear definitions, things seem to seperate themselves out into classes. The way I look at it is not disimilar to most social groupings. You have elitest (those that tend to follow rules supplied from a book of etiquette), the middle class (those who simply pick and choose the things that might enhance their life), and a lower class (those usually unassociated to the others in any manner). It's the only way I've been able to gauge what kind of person I happen to standing next to at the time. These are obviously very crude examples and it may still be making labels but I think we need a certain amount of that thinking in order to know where our own boundries are.

< Message edited by OddManOut -- 2/19/2005 5:14:59 PM >

(in reply to Bwana55419)

Post #: 14

RE: Self labeling. - 2/19/2005 8:30:25 PM

FangsNfeet

Posts: 3758
Joined: 12/3/2004
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My submissive only has one lable. MINE!

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 15

RE: Self labeling. - 2/25/2005 11:52:07 AM

BeachMystress

Posts: 2156
Joined: 4/3/2004
From: Naples Island- Long Beach CA - Southern California
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I do agree that some people get so caught up in other's perceptions of how things should be done that they forget the basic rule (after SSC) that this is burger-king-Dominance. *hums the have it your way theme* It makes me sigh when I hear about things like Darthbetta described. Why does anyone think that BDSM has to be done a certain way? Personally, I am a Dominant. What that means isn't that I follow rules that others declare. It means I make my own rules. If others don't like my rules, they are free to deal with that in their own lives. I'm not going to alter how I do things to make them happy or to support their ideas of how BDSM is done.

Now, when I am in a public space, of course I conform to the posted dungeon rules. I am a guest, and when we are a guest, we respect our host. That is called manners. That doesn't mean I'll live my life outside their space by posted rules. It means I play well with others. *gives self a big ole gold star on the report card next to plays-well-with-others and puts a frown face by runs-with-scissors.*

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*Do not threaten the weak. Intimidate the strong. ~ Stevenson*
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(in reply to Bwana55419)

Post #: 16

RE: Self labeling. - 2/25/2005 1:51:10 PM

mantis65

Posts: 456
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

I think "shades of grey" is just another way a modern society of mediocrity attempts to use rationalizations to justify "doing your own thing".

You can use all sorts of trite arguments to try to rationalize why a dog might actually be a cat.

But it's still a dog,and no amount of idiotic justifications will make it other then that.

Ok dogs not a cat but ….a Doberman isn’t a pug either.
Within the breeds of dogs it’s very diverse there’s no single canine creature that is the one true dog.
The closet is the wolf and there are different breeds of wolves also.
In nature life forms that aren’t diverse have a habit of going into extinction.

This whole argument is really for the Dominant and the submissive themselves to worry about.
It’s for the people like Darthbetta and his sub it’s really up to them to decide (mostly for him to decide …but you know what I mean).
He seems to have a made the horrific sin of having “fun” while doing something.
Everyone has ideas on what works best for them.
Trying to impose the way it oughta be on others is just futile.
Even if you think their wrong in what their doing doesn’t mean they will change just for you.
There’s always going to be people that you may find doing something you feel is wrong but who are you to them? Unless it’s a conflict between the Dom and sub they aren’t going to change just to make some observer of them happy.
Or at least they shouldn’t.

Anyway Darthbetta I hope you at least used the one type of spoon that is allowed.
And that spoon has to be forged in a volcanic forge on GOR! All other spoons are unworthy!!!! hehe
mantis

< Message edited by mantis65 -- 2/25/2005 1:56:41 PM >

(in reply to BeachMystress)

Post #: 17

RE: Self labeling. - 2/25/2005 6:58:07 PM

MsLisa

Posts: 67
Joined: 11/28/2004
Status: offline

A real dominant does whatever it is that they wish, within the realm of consent. A real submissive does whatever their dominant wishes, within the realm of consent. If they have no dominant, they must be in charge of themselves.

Fabulous statement...very well said

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(in reply to Bwana55419)

Post #: 18

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