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Atonement... - 12/13/2006 1:53:44 PM

Bearlee

Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
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Last week I attended a MasT (Masters and slaves Together) meeting where the topic of discussion was: Discipline & Atonement.” Atonement; an even more interesting word than discipline, at least in my book.

I’ve always struggled with ‘Discipline’ as a consequence for bad behavior. I had not considered that it also means ‘training that corrects, molds or perfects’. Merriam-Webster’s Online Dictionary also describes it as ‘a) control gained by enforcing obedience or order b) orderly or prescribed conduct or pattern of behavior c) self control.

Okay… that, I can sink my teeth into. Discipline as punishment makes no sense to me. If a person has agreed to be submissive or slave to another…it seems to me s/he would strive to do as the Dominant/Master said or wanted; just to please. I have no patience with purposefully messing-up to cause the need for punishment. It’s just not the way I’m wired.

However, it was explained to me that many Dominants find that submissive/slaves sometimes unconsciously break rules. Perhaps to ensure boundaries are in place, perhaps to discover the mettle of their master; can s/he effectively control me? When folks misbehave for the fun of ‘punishment’; that is a different game for me entirely. If I want to play, I’ll ask. I just don’t understand covert behavior…which is why I just don’t get ‘punishment for adults’. If I do something that displeases the one who owns me…I expect to get “a talking to.” Punishment for me has bad connotations. Period

Discipline, for awhile, was in the same bag as punishment for me. I’ve since learned the difference; discipline is training…I like that part.

And then there is Atonement. According to the afore mentioned dictionary (as I understand it), atonement can mean reconciliation or the ‘reparation for an offense or injury: Satisfaction.’ And ‘satisfaction is (for our purposes): a : the payment through penance of the temporal punishment incurred by a sin
b : reparation for sin that meets the demands of divine justice.

Yummmmmmmmmmm! Isn’t that just something perfect for a subbie to sink their teeth into?

So, if (somehow) I manage to displease my Dominant…who chooses to discipline me…that person will train/correct/mold me to the degree that my self control becomes a pattern of behavior that pleases him/her. Perfect, no?

Now, displeasing my Dominant cause’s great discomfort to me…being simply corrected may not absolve me of that wrong; at least in my mind. I want atonement! I need atonement, in fact.

I remember once, being told to sit facing a wall for a period of time, so that I could consider my transgression and to then, write a paper discussing what I had learned. For at least half of the time I sat facing the wall, I felt victimized; that my Dominant had misunderstood me…afterall, I would not purposefully do anything wrong! But the longer I sat there, the more I realized what had actually taken place. I had displeased; period. Once I understood that, I could go on to write what I had learned in the process…and my paper became my atonement. It was a valuable lesson for me.

Suppose my ‘bad’ behavior was cutting vegetables for soup. If my Dominant has a particular liking for softer vegetables; my cutting them larger to keep them crisp would not please him/her. That I am a cook and have been ‘taught’ crisp, firm veggies are the best, means nothing if my Owner prefers them soft!

For me, atonement becomes not only the lesson learned, but my request for forgiveness and proof that I understood what/how/why I had displeased. All in all, it was a positive experience…which I think all training/discipline should be.

What does atonement mean to you? Have you experienced atonment? Does it have value for you?

Curious,
beverly

Edited to add those pesky paragraph breaks!!!

< Message edited by Bearlee -- 12/13/2006 1:56:21 PM >

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RE: Atonement... - 12/13/2006 2:13:00 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bearlee
I’ve always struggled with ‘Discipline’ as a consequence for bad behavior. I had not considered that it also means ‘training that corrects, molds or perfects’.

Really? It's been brought up a few times in all of the punishment/discipline discussions. I know that's pretty much exactly how I have defined and explained it.

quote:

. Discipline as punishment makes no sense to me. If a person has agreed to be submissive or slave to another…it seems to me s/he would strive to do as the Dominant/Master said or wanted; just to please. I have no patience with purposefully messing-up to cause the need for punishment. It’s just not the way I’m wired.

True, this doesn't mean punishment can't be effective.

quote:

However, it was explained to me that many Dominants find that submissive/slaves sometimes unconsciously break rules. Perhaps to ensure boundaries are in place, perhaps to discover the mettle of their master; can s/he effectively control me?

Blech, this I won't stand for and avoid people who display this sort of insecurity and inability to directly communicate. I understand that behavior can show things that a person isn't even really aware of, but to excuse bad behavior by pulling the "I'm just testing you" card doesn't fly with me.

quote:

I just don’t understand covert behavior…which is why I just don’t get ‘punishment for adults’. If I do something that displeases the one who owns me…I expect to get “a talking to.” Punishment for me has bad connotations. Period

Sounds good for you.

quote:

What does atonement mean to you? Have you experienced atonment? Does it have value for you?

Curious,
beverly

Atonement in these terms is fairly meaningless to me. I'm just not the type to become guilty easily. I mostly feel this way when I realize I've hurt someone's feelings unintentionally and truly want to somehow make up for it.

Otherwise, I have no need to be beaten or endure something in order to feel cleansed or purified or un-guiltified. I know LOTS of subs enjoy punishment for this very reason- the catharsis and closure. But it's just not something for me.

I employ punishment, I'm fine being punished, but no need for atonement.

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RE: Atonement... - 12/13/2006 2:21:31 PM

Bearlee

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...but that's just it; I do NOT behave that way....to get attention or to play. So...if somehow I do something that displeases, punishment, as in a beating, would make no sense (to me). To be challenged to go think about what happened, then to write what I'd considered (especially if I GOT IT)...creates the 'atonement' or apology that I'd need to just let go of it. Otherwise, I tend to mull over and over; how I'd screwed up and I'd want the Dominant to understand it wouldn't happen again. And why. And that I was sorry I'd done it...even if I didn't mean to.

Something like that.

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RE: Atonement... - 12/13/2006 2:26:30 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bearlee

...but that's just it; I do NOT behave that way....to get attention or to play. So...if somehow I do something that displeases, punishment, as in a beating, would make no sense (to me). To be challenged to go think about what happened, then to write what I'd considered (especially if I GOT IT)...creates the 'atonement' or apology that I'd need to just let go of it. Otherwise, I tend to mull over and over; how I'd screwed up and I'd want the Dominant to understand it wouldn't happen again. And why. And that I was sorry I'd done it...even if I didn't mean to.

Something like that.

That makes perfect sense to me. Punishment really should be a last resort and only used in rare and extreme circumstances IMO.

While I don't NEED that catharsis, sense of forgiveness or closure that so many subs do in this sense, I understand that they do and can certainly provide it for them if necessary.

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"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Atonement... - 12/13/2006 2:36:42 PM

Bearlee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

While I don't NEED that catharsis, sense of forgiveness or closure that so many subs do in this sense, I understand that they do and can certainly provide it for them if necessary.

Yes, that's it! Closure!

Thanks LA...

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RE: Atonement... - 12/13/2006 2:58:44 PM

Devilslilsister

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i think all the words work great. Glad you found the words that work best for you. Punishment and atonement work good for me. Punishment because i screwed up. Which i am prone to do. People screw up and to me there is a cause and reaction. I'm also the type that does alot on impulse. Which gets me in alooooooot of trouble. One of these days i may actually stop and think before i react. Atonement works well too. When i've screwed up (because i didnt stop and think) and i realise my error i generally feel bad and like to do something to make up for it.

Discipline on the other hand - never had a taste for the word. Dunno why

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RE: Atonement... - 12/13/2006 3:19:16 PM

MasterFireMaam

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This is all about symmantics for me. I do not like the words punishment or attonement. That I need to punish someone means that either I am not treating them like a responsible adult or they are not acting like one (or both). That annoys me. That I am offereing attonement, to me, speaks of religion and I am not my slaves' God or Goddess. I understand, in my head, that attonement can be a way to show that you're really sorry, but my knee-jerk reaction is still one of dislike of the idea.

Discipline, however, works for me. Most of the time, we try to rely on self-discipline. One of the things I offer as a Master is guidance. In order to receive that guidance, the slave commits to obeying through a contract. It is up to me, in some instance, to remind them of the commitment. That is discipline.

Master Fire

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RE: Atonement... - 12/13/2006 4:17:08 PM

LadyHugs

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Dear Bearlee, Ladies and Gentlemen;

Atonement in my mind's eyes I see, is the person to whom has caused ill and or injury, is asking for forgiveness, closure and start with a clean slate per se.

I also see atonement as independent and yet, may also join as 'hand and glove' with discipline/punishment in some respects.

As a Dominant, in my mind's eyes I see; that the degree of error dictates my response and adjudication in seeking an apology which might go well under the terms and understandings of 'atonement' and or all the way from harsh physical punishment. But, it cannot always be declared in such a black and white manner, unless it is a black and white 'law' or 'rule' set forth under my House. But, with any given scenario; there are 'ifs' and 'exceptions' and the like to temper the entire adjudication of the alleged misdeed and or misconduct.

I find slaves often punish themselves far harsher then I could ever do.
So, sometimes a look of disappointment would behave more like I beat them to a bloody pulp; yet--not a hand was applied to them.

In my mind's eyes I see, not all slaves will give atonement. There are those who will and or, some that will with some cases where punishment is applied will sometimes offer atonement and at times not, even though the infraction may be similiar. In my mind's eyes I see depending entirely on the emotional, spiritual, mental and slave heart at that moment. If a slave is strongly seeing in their mind's eyes they see that they are justified, they will not wish to atone; as they are not seeking forgiveness, especially when they feel they are 100% correct. I agree to that and understand that. However, if they are incorrect, in my mind's eyes I see more likely atonement will manifest before, during and or after the punishment.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

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RE: Atonement... - 12/13/2006 5:03:21 PM

pixelslave

Posts: 1444
Joined: 8/19/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bearlee

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

While I don't NEED that catharsis, sense of forgiveness or closure that so many subs do in this sense, I understand that they do and can certainly provide it for them if necessary.

Yes, that's it! Closure!

Thanks LA...

Some might also view atonement as being akin to making amends, one of the steps in a 12 step program such as AA.

I once had a discussion with a dominant who shared with me that some of the subs she'd played with found atonement for other things they'd done (that were not related to her) through their play, and released it in that manner. It was a cathartic experience for the subs, but not in terms of the Domme or the sub's relationship with her.

- pixel

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RE: Atonement... - 12/13/2006 5:12:57 PM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bearlee

Last week I attended a MasT (Masters and slaves Together) meeting where the topic of discussion was: Discipline & Atonement.” Atonement; an even more interesting word than discipline, at least in my book.

I’ve always struggled with ‘Discipline’ as a consequence for bad behavior. I had not considered that it also means ‘training that corrects, molds or perfects’. Merriam-Webster’s Online Dictionary also describes it as ‘a) control gained by enforcing obedience or order b) orderly or prescribed conduct or pattern of behavior c) self control.

Okay… that, I can sink my teeth into. Discipline as punishment makes no sense to me. If a person has agreed to be submissive or slave to another…it seems to me s/he would strive to do as the Dominant/Master said or wanted; just to please. I have no patience with purposefully messing-up to cause the need for punishment. It’s just not the way I’m wired.

However, it was explained to me that many Dominants find that submissive/slaves sometimes unconsciously break rules. Perhaps to ensure boundaries are in place, perhaps to discover the mettle of their master; can s/he effectively control me? When folks misbehave for the fun of ‘punishment’; that is a different game for me entirely. If I want to play, I’ll ask. I just don’t understand covert behavior…which is why I just don’t get ‘punishment for adults’. If I do something that displeases the one who owns me…I expect to get “a talking to.” Punishment for me has bad connotations. Period

As someone else noted, I think it is coming down to semantics. You speak of receiving a "good talking-to". That in itself is what some would consider discipline. Others would consider it punishment. In a thread on punishment lately, it was asked whether or not there should be consequences for bad behavior. Consequences can be seen as lessons learned or as discipline or as punishment or a combination of many things.

quote:

Discipline, for awhile, was in the same bag as punishment for me. I’ve since learned the difference; discipline is training…I like that part.

It can be. Though many dominants consider the discipline to be training in nature, it is done in such a way that not only is the required training being registered by the submissive but the fact that they are having to go through it is punitive.

quote:

And then there is Atonement. According to the afore mentioned dictionary (as I understand it), atonement can mean reconciliation or the ‘reparation for an offense or injury: Satisfaction.’ And ‘satisfaction is (for our purposes): a : the payment through penance of the temporal punishment incurred by a sin
b : reparation for sin that meets the demands of divine justice.

Yummmmmmmmmmm! Isn’t that just something perfect for a subbie to sink their teeth into?

So, if (somehow) I manage to displease my Dominant…who chooses to discipline me…that person will train/correct/mold me to the degree that my self control becomes a pattern of behavior that pleases him/her. Perfect, no?

Now, displeasing my Dominant cause’s great discomfort to me…being simply corrected may not absolve me of that wrong; at least in my mind. I want atonement! I need atonement, in fact.

I remember once, being told to sit facing a wall for a period of time, so that I could consider my transgression and to then, write a paper discussing what I had learned. For at least half of the time I sat facing the wall, I felt victimized; that my Dominant had misunderstood me…afterall, I would not purposefully do anything wrong! But the longer I sat there, the more I realized what had actually taken place. I had displeased; period. Once I understood that, I could go on to write what I had learned in the process…and my paper became my atonement. It was a valuable lesson for me.

Suppose my ‘bad’ behavior was cutting vegetables for soup. If my Dominant has a particular liking for softer vegetables; my cutting them larger to keep them crisp would not please him/her. That I am a cook and have been ‘taught’ crisp, firm veggies are the best, means nothing if my Owner prefers them soft!

For me, atonement becomes not only the lesson learned, but my request for forgiveness and proof that I understood what/how/why I had displeased. All in all, it was a positive experience…which I think all training/discipline should be.

What does atonement mean to you? Have you experienced atonment? Does it have value for you?

Curious,
beverly

Edited to add those pesky paragraph breaks!!!

I like the idea that there is some sort of demonstration that the lessons I've endeavored to teach with my discipline/punishment/correction have been ingrained and understood.

(in reply to Bearlee)

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RE: Atonement... - 12/13/2006 5:21:28 PM

catize

Posts: 3020
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quote:

However, it was explained to me that many Dominants find that submissive/slaves sometimes unconsciously break rules. Perhaps to ensure boundaries are in place, perhaps to discover the mettle of their master; can s/he effectively control me?

That statement strikes me as so much psycho-babble. If I am washing dishes and drop a cup, is it because unconsciously I want to test the law of gravity?
As flawed humans we all make mistakes. Freud said, in response to the question was his cigar a phallic symbol, “Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.” And I maintain that an honest mistake is just what it seems; an error and nothing more.

quote:

Now, displeasing my Dominant cause’s great discomfort to me…being simply corrected may not absolve me of that wrong; at least in my mind. I want atonement! I need atonement, in fact.

There are very few submissives who will not at some point displease their dominant. I would also maintain that a dominant at times will displease their submissive. (Back to that flawed human thing) It is a matter of realistic expectations of ourselves and each other.
There is, in my mind, a big difference between an “Ooops” and deliberate disobedience. The former is a given; the latter highlights a bigger problem in the relationship than any punishment can fix.
If I do my best to abide by the rules to which I have agreed, and if that best is not enough for master, I would think a more productive outcome would be achieved if we discussed it and explored solutions to the problem.

quote:

What does atonement mean to you? Have you experienced atonment? Does it have value for you?

Atonement and reparation do not need to be dramatic to be effective. A simple “I’m sorry” seems adequate to me.

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RE: Atonement... - 12/13/2006 5:40:18 PM

LordODiscipline

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bearlee
What does atonement mean to you? Have you experienced atonment? Does it have value for you?

Atonement is generally personally invoked and/or ascribed punishment accompanied by sincere contrition and deep desire to never do thet (whatever) again.

It can also be implemented by another person

~J

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