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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/21/2006 8:31:59 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		That's inaccurate.  First I go through facts, on the off chance that someone might want to listen to them; then, when I start getting called an ideologue and a Nazi, I have a way of becoming sarcastic.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

You, for example, seem to react in a very emotional manner to any viewpoint other than your own, and then use your talents for sarcasm, obfuscation and ridicule to attempt to demean and belittle others and shut down the conversation.

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/21/2006 8:34:04 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline 		NeedToUseYou,

Really, really excellent, common sense post. 

Taking off on a tangent (well, maybe not with my and meatcleavers above developing discussion about "justice"), I wanted to comment on this paragraph:
quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

The reason the generic "company" is a sociopath is because the investors want it to be a money making sociopath. They simple guage it by return on investment. They generally don't look at how the money was made, they simply look at how much money was made.


I think this is a true statement for the most part.

Which leads me to asking the question: what ways can we, as a society, try to ensure morality in the actions that people and corporations take?

meatcleaver is touching on the concept of "evil" and "justice" in his above posts, and I think that is another fruitful area of discussion.

I could envision a capitalistic society in which there was no morality, and little justice (maybe I read too much science fiction.  Currently reading Richard Morgan's "Kovac" trilogy).

I think the most attractive "free" society, in which morality and justice are reinforced along with the freedom of inquiry and the freedom of economic activity and property rights, is one in which there is a supporting code of ethics, a morality, a system of beliefs that is related and reinforcing in that society.

In Western society, that morality has been provided by Christianity, for the most part.

I've had discussions about whether or not humanism can substitute for Christianity, in becoming that moral force in civil society, but I'm not convinced it can be.

Christianity has also been the philosophical breeding ground for science and for capitalism.  Taken together, capitalism, Christianity and science are the three legs that form the basis of the modern Western world. 

The question becomes whether or not the two off-shoots of the Christian tradition (capitalism and science) can be successfully transplanted to social environments that aren't from a Christian background.

The jury is still out in my mind, although Japan, South Korea and several other Asian societies seem to be successful so far.  In the rest of the world, the picture isn't as rosy.  I wonder if the US were to withdraw from the world into isolationism again, whether or not the world economic order would survive, or collapse into Mercantilism.

Plenty of stuff to chew over.

FirmKY


_____________________________

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/21/2006 8:36:06 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		An emissions tax would FORCE people to be responsible for their own emissions.  But conservatives don't want to hear about that.  They hear the word "tax" and their first instinct is to run for the hills.  Well, correct that: their first instinct is to recast the debate in moralizing terms and explaining why their opponents are evil ideologues.

Conservatives always talk about "individual responsibility."  What grotesque hypocrisy.  Green policies are a way of re-introducing individual responsibility into a world contaminated by empty rhetoric.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

I have a question for the greens. How many of you have solar powered homes or wind powered, or have a hybrid vehicle or one that runs off bio-fuel ? And these things besides the hybrids have been around for going on 20-30 years!

I bet maybe one might have a hybrid, maybe. Doubtful anyone here has done anything at all personally.

So, if that's the case, what the hell difference is there between a capitalist eating up the resources and and a theoritical "green". I'd say absolutely nothing.

So, I have to ask what is the point here? If we as individuals aren't taking responsiblity for the situation, why would corporations do anything? I mean seriosuly do we hold them to a higher moral standard than ourselves. LOL, that would imply alot about us. And actually some companies are doing at least something that is more than 99% of the population.


< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 12/21/2006 8:37:46 AM >

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/21/2006 8:38:24 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Oh, and guys--spare us the mutual-admiration society crap.  We already know that you agree with each other.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

NeedToUseYou,

Really, really excellent, common sense post. 

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/21/2006 8:40:18 AM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
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From: None of your business
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Oh, and guys--spare us the mutual-admiration society crap.  We already know that you agree with each other.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

NeedToUseYou,

Really, really excellent, common sense post. 



Actually, we don't entirely, I think global warming is happening without a doubt in my brain. I just don't really care if someone else doesn't think so.

We agree I think about  capitalism not being evil by default, though.

edited to add the not.

< Message edited by NeedToUseYou -- 12/21/2006 8:42:09 AM >

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/21/2006 8:41:50 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		L&M,
What is your stance on the solution that would have the greatest immediate impact on burning fossil fuels - nuclear power? It works in most of the other 'western' countries.

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Profile   Post #: 206
RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/21/2006 8:42:20 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		He does too.

Amazing, come to think of it, that you guys are in the MODERATE section of the right wing...

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

Actually, we don't entirely, I think global warming is happening without a doubt in my brain.

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Profile   Post #: 207
RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/21/2006 8:45:05 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		It's either that or figuring out how to bury greenhouse-gas emissions from conventional power plants.  But either technology is about 20 years away.  Let's argue about the problem for the next 20 years and wait for another generation of energy CEO's to retire on their golden goose.

Anyway, I also think solar and wind energy are going to grow and improve in the coming decade or two.  Many energy companies are already investing in wind because it makes sense from a dollars-and-cents standpoint.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

What is your stance on the solution that would have the greatest immediate impact on burning fossil fuels - nuclear power? It works in most of the other 'western' countries.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/21/2006 8:45:41 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Law without justice is an evil. Freedom doesn't exist and what we call freedom is an accommodation between the rulers and the ruled. Law is and has been used for the appropriation of land and wealth, for the protection of owners at the expense of those that have nothing. Without justice, law is oppression.


*sigh*

meat, I think you and I live in the same physical world, but an entirely different mental one.

From your above paragraph I take:

1.  Evil exists. 

What is evil, then, to you?  Some sort of definition or examples?


I was being lazy, in emphasizing law without justice is draconian and oppressive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

2.  Freedom doesn't exist. 

Is that really what you mean?  Has it ever existed?  Under what conditions could it exist?


Read Sartre, I don't have the time or the will to explain why freedom doesn't exist but anyone with a modicom of education should be able to work it out. What we lazily call freedom is a consensus, an accommodation so people can co-exist relatively peacefully.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

3.  All laws are evil. 

I'm not totally sure you mean this, but I read your words several times, and this is the only conclusion that currently makes sense to me.  Are you an anarchist?


Without justice, law is oppression.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

4. Capitalism lead to the rule of law, but the rule of law is an evil thing. 

Is this an accurate statement of your belief?



Capitalism didn't lead to the rule of law, the appropriation of land and land ownership requires law.


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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/21/2006 8:46:03 AM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

An emissions tax would FORCE people to be responsible for their own emissions.  But conservatives don't want to hear about that.  They hear the word "tax" and their first instinct is to run for the hills.  Well, correct that: their first instinct is to recast the debate in moralizing terms and explaining why their opponents are evil ideologues.

Conservatives always talk about "individual responsibility."  What grotesque hypocrisy.  Green policies are a way of re-introducing individual responsibility into a world contaminated by empty rhetoric.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

I have a question for the greens. How many of you have solar powered homes or wind powered, or have a hybrid vehicle or one that runs off bio-fuel ? And these things besides the hybrids have been around for going on 20-30 years!

I bet maybe one might have a hybrid, maybe. Doubtful anyone here has done anything at all personally.

So, if that's the case, what the hell difference is there between a capitalist eating up the resources and and a theoritical "green". I'd say absolutely nothing.

So, I have to ask what is the point here? If we as individuals aren't taking responsiblity for the situation, why would corporations do anything? I mean seriosuly do we hold them to a higher moral standard than ourselves. LOL, that would imply alot about us. And actually some companies are doing at least something that is more than 99% of the population.



My overall objection to a "green tax" is that it would have the most impact the the poorest people, or the smaller companies. The ones that could be put out of transportation entirely as an individual, or out of business as a company. A very large corporation or very wealthy individual, would more than likely be either circumvent the policy by moving to another country and produce there, and wealthy person isn't going to be prompted to change there habits by 10 dollars here and there.

It seems to unduly focus on the least powerful as opposed to the powerful which could just move elsewhere.

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/21/2006 8:52:04 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

That's inaccurate.  First I go through facts, on the off chance that someone might want to listen to them; then, when I start getting called an ideologue and a Nazi, I have a way of becoming sarcastic.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

You, for example, seem to react in a very emotional manner to any viewpoint other than your own, and then use your talents for sarcasm, obfuscation and ridicule to attempt to demean and belittle others and shut down the conversation.



Well,

This is an example of one of marc's and my issues with you, LaM:
LaM

I start getting called ... a Nazi,

marc

Now don’t flip out, I’m not accusing you of being a nazi,

As for being called an ideologue ... well, you could take that from what he wrote, but I'm not sure that's an insult.  Or if it is, that it is on par with being called a nazi.

This is an example of what I see with your comments, sometimes, in these type of debates: you look for, and focus on the negative, react emotionally, and then counter attack a preceived injustice.

*shrugs*

We all do that occasionally.  It's a normal human reaction.  Sometimes you have to.  But it seems as if that is your main method of discourse.

Don't get me wrong.  I think you are a very intelligent person, and in person, we'd probably get along fine, and have some rousing arguements.  But that style tends to lead to less than enjoyable and open discussions in this medium.

FirmKY


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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/21/2006 8:52:22 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		I disagree, because greenhouse emissions are highly correlated with wealth.  Per capita, the poorest people pollute far less than the wealthiest.  That goes for both individuals and corporations.  Of course, one of these days, the tax code is going to have to deal with offshore operations.

But offshore loopholes in the tax code are a cuddly pet of the same right-wing administration that's opposed to any reform in environmental policy.  So, I'm sorry to have to bring this up, but it's a little hard for me to take conservative concern for "the poorest people" very seriously just a couple of years after they rammed through one of the most one-sided tax breaks in American history.  Or I suppose you didn't agree with that one?  It's like Milli Vanilli.  NO ONE EVER went to Milli Vanilli concerts.  Well, they seemed pretty jammed at the time...

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

My overall objection to a "green tax" is that it would have the most impact the the poorest people, or the smaller companies. The ones that could be put out of transportation entirely as an individual, or out of business as a company. A very large corporation or very wealthy individual, would more than likely be either circumvent the policy by moving to another country and produce there, and wealthy person isn't going to be prompted to change there habits by 10 dollars here and there.

It seems to unduly focus on the least powerful as opposed to the powerful which could just move elsewhere.

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
Profile   Post #: 212
RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/21/2006 8:55:11 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Right.  Let me call you a Nazi.  But don't flip out, I'm not really calling you a Nazi.  How dare you flip out when I say that your thinking is just a step away from the Holocaust???  I'm only being calm and rational.  You're a big emotional ideologue.

You really don't recognize all this for the bullshit that it is?  Instead of discussing facts with me (since he can't), he's gotten me to discuss the absolutely meaningless question of whether he called me a Nazi.  Classic change-the-topic-when-you're-getting-your-ass-handed-to-you strategy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

This is an example of one of marc's and my issues with you, LaM:

LaM

I start getting called ... a Nazi,

marc

Now don’t flip out, I’m not accusing you of being a nazi,

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/21/2006 8:56:21 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

Actually, we don't entirely, I think global warming is happening without a doubt in my brain. I just don't really care if someone else doesn't think so.



Actually, I don't believe I've said that I don't believe in global warming.  I think I said that it is happening, didn't I? (rhetorical questions: I did say that).

FirmKY

edited: spelling


< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 12/21/2006 9:08:08 AM >

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/21/2006 9:00:12 AM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
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From: None of your business
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I disagree, because greenhouse emissions are highly correlated with wealth.  Per capita, the poorest people pollute far less than the wealthiest.  That goes for both individuals and corporations.  Of course, one of these days, the tax code is going to have to deal with offshore operations.

But offshore loopholes in the tax code are a cuddly pet of the same right-wing administration that's opposed to any reform in environmental policy.  So, I'm sorry to have to bring this up, but it's a little hard for me to take conservative concern for "the poorest people" very seriously just a couple of years after they rammed through one of the most one-sided tax breaks in American history.  Or I suppose you didn't agree with that one?  It's like Milli Vanilli.  NO ONE EVER went to Milli Vanilli concerts.  Well, they seemed pretty jammed at the time...

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

My overall objection to a "green tax" is that it would have the most impact the the poorest people, or the smaller companies. The ones that could be put out of transportation entirely as an individual, or out of business as a company. A very large corporation or very wealthy individual, would more than likely be either circumvent the policy by moving to another country and produce there, and wealthy person isn't going to be prompted to change there habits by 10 dollars here and there.

It seems to unduly focus on the least powerful as opposed to the powerful which could just move elsewhere.



Well, since the criteria for how these taxes would be laid wasn't said, I just went off my gut instinct. Which is probably tax gas, tax cars by make and model, tax on electricity usage, tax by industry. That is the only way I can see to do it without creating a super massive bueracracy. And I seeing a .50 cent per gallon tax increase having a real life impact on a person making 20000 and no impact on someone making 200000.  Same with electricity, and industries that were taxed to heavy for there environmental impact would move.

So, the objection still is and legitimately so in my view, the ways I see it being devised would more than likely only have a substantial impact on the poor.

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/21/2006 9:02:54 AM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

Actually, we don't entirely, I think global warming is happening without a doubt in my brain. I just don't really care if someone else doesn't think so.



Actually, I don't believe I've said that I don't believe in global warming.  I think I said that it is happening, didn't I? (rhetoical questions: I did say that).

FirmKY



Maybe I got you confused, it sorta blends into two waring factions after awhile and they blur a bit, on who exactly said what. LOL.

Sorry.

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/21/2006 9:04:17 AM   
FirmhandKY


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Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Right.  Let me call you a Nazi.  But don't flip out, I'm not really calling you a Nazi.  How dare you flip out when I say that your thinking is just a step away from the Holocaust???  I'm only being calm and rational.  You're a big emotional ideologue.

You really don't recognize all this for the bullshit that it is?  Instead of discussing facts with me (since he can't), he's gotten me to discuss the absolutely meaningless question of whether he called me a Nazi.  Classic change-the-topic-when-you're-getting-your-ass-handed-to-you strategy.



No, LaM, you are seeking out insults in a calm debate about ideas.  You seek the conflict, and always find it.   Then you counter-attack.

"The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves .."

Just look at how you reacted in the above post:
recognize all this for the bullshit

absolutely meaningless question

getting-your-ass-handed-to-you strategy

All are highly emotional words and phrases.  All attack the person rather than his argument.  None are conducive to a real discussion.

FirmKY


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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/21/2006 9:04:56 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		NeedstoUseYou:
I have been off the grid for 20 years now 100% solar.  One dedicated electric car, a sedan that runs on homemade biodiesel, a pick up truck that runs on homemade methane.  As for the market no one handles my money except me.
thompson

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/21/2006 9:06:21 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		General point.

The real problem for the west is that it is always concerned with short term profits when it comes to energy instead of creating strategic policy. Before Thatcher destroyed the British coal industry (20 years ago), it was reckoned clean coal fired power stations were less than twenty years away. Gas suddenly became cheaper, research and development was dropped and coal was dumped in favour of gas. I'm not saying clean coal fired power stations would have came about, I don't know how realistic it was in the first place, I'm just illustrating the lack of strategy in western countries. Now with dependency for energy on Russia growing, we are back to talking about sinking new mines in Britain to diversify energy. So there is one government department talking about an expanding an energy that will pollute while another department talks about reducing pollution and greenhouse gases. Talk about heads up arses. Where is the nearest brick wall we can all smash our heads against?

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 12/21/2006 9:08:42 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/21/2006 9:09:15 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		General Motors pulled the EV1. People staged a protest- arrests were made.

How does this happen.

Gluttony and greed is nothing new to mankind. but in an ear of mass communication- a thrust for the public good ought to be a force to make such happen.

Westerners have been conditioned to be CONSUMERS. Not Citizens.  It is a no brainer to know that this is UNSUSTAINABLE.

The Soviets once said they would sell us the rope to hang oursleves. Seems we not only bought the rope- but the patent and copywrite to it!! 

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