RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda.

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NorthernGent -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/29/2006 1:08:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Weasel words such as "could have", "might have", "is possible", "claimed" and such do not a "confirmed report" make. Also, anything in the UK Guardian newspaper is automatically placed in the "doubtful" category. It seems to be one of the most anti-US and pro-conspiracy newspapers in Europe. FirmKY Firm, for clarification so we all know where we stand on this point, The Guardian is far from anti-US. I know because I read it regularly. The review sections regularly include articles and interviews on/with influential Americans from those involved in civil rights movements to the likes of Bernie Sanders. In actual fact, The Guardian bends over backwards to show a side of the US that explores beyond the face we are presented with much of the time i.e. a nation ran by imperialists hell-bent on exploitation and destruction (there are sound political reasons for doing this). If you said The Guardian is anti-Bush and the neo-cons then you would be correct. The again, the whole world is anti-Bush and the neo-cons so The Guardian isn't exceptional in this regard.

NorthernGent -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/29/2006 1:23:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx Are you saying it is right and proper for the US government to actively engage in the overthrow of a soverign nations government baised on the perceived zeitgeist of the period? hmmm ... Yes. [:D] and I bet you wonder why 9/11 happened. So, I guess what you mean is, that the 3000+ people who were murdered on 9/11 ... deserved it? FirmKY Firm, talk about putting words in peoples' mouths. Not mine and I'm sure MC can speak up for himself but come on that is a very lazy post to say the least. Most would say it is another example of a government going about its business and innocent people dying as a result. Take a poll outside of the US and you'll find many people believe the roots of what happened in New York lie in US foreign policy. It's hardly radical thinking and I'll hazard a guess that many in the US feel the same way.

luckydog1 -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/29/2006 1:26:36 PM)
So Meat , can we assume you are in favor of revolution? If so what socio economic system are wanting to revolt for? As viable modes I really only see 3, Capitalist industrialist, Marxist industrialist, or Sharia Islam. A "Revolutionary with no plan or orginization(cause)". That's been a Corparate Icon of Sexy since James Dean.

Real0ne -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/29/2006 1:40:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne Did i get the quoting right LOL Yes i agree just look at the responses to the taxes thread... everyone offers a comment of defeat and their done with it. Nothing more than lip service. seems fitting to say we get what we deserve hey... Absolutely. We elect them and have the power to remove them but instead choose to ignore their excesses (even when they're killing people in our name). ya but its ok because our constitution gives us the right to do that!!!! Especially in the name of peace!!!!

Real0ne -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/29/2006 1:43:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx Are you saying it is right and proper for the US government to actively engage in the overthrow of a soverign nations government baised on the perceived zeitgeist of the period? hmmm ... Yes. [:D] and I bet you wonder why 9/11 happened. So, I guess what you mean is, that the 3000+ people who were murdered on 9/11 ... deserved it? FirmKY Firm, talk about putting words in peoples' mouths. Not mine and I'm sure MC can speak up for himself but come on that is a very lazy post to say the least. Most would say it is another example of a government going about its business and innocent people dying as a result. Take a poll outside of the US and you'll find many people believe the roots of what happened in New York lie in US foreign policy. It's hardly radical thinking and I'll hazard a guess that many in the US feel the same way. well ky seems to think its right and proper for the US government to actively engage in the overthrow of a soverign nations government baised on the perceived zeitgeist of the period same dif

NorthernGent -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/29/2006 1:43:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne Did i get the quoting right LOL Yes i agree just look at the responses to the taxes thread... everyone offers a comment of defeat and their done with it. Nothing more than lip service. seems fitting to say we get what we deserve hey... Absolutely. We elect them and have the power to remove them but instead choose to ignore their excesses (even when they're killing people in our name). You only have to satisfy enough people to keep you in power and at the moment in Britain that is around 1 in 4. However, you can vote the shit out of office only to get new shit, you can't vote in a new socio-economic system, for that you need a revolution. Only a fool believes a new socio-economic system can be voted in and even if one was, the troops would be on the street inside 24 hours protecting the vested interests. There are examples of political movements in Britain (19th and 20th centuries) that have caused real change and improvements. If enough people want change then a political movement can make it happen. The government are supposed to be our servants which brings me back to my point that we have the power to enable any sort of government we want (which tells the story of why this Labour government are acting like conservatives).

NorthernGent -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/29/2006 1:49:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster Eh, I'm not too impressed with the evidence for that, and Hoover was hardly a disinterested investigator. Now Silvio Berlusconi, on the other hand... quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Was Kennedy in cahoots with the mafia? Didn't Hoover have a long file on Kennedy detailing all his dodgy dealings? I read it in a book by Donald Wolfe about the Kennedys, Marilyn Monroe and a few other bits and pieces. He seemed to have done a fair amount of research. So, it's no more than speculation then?

juliaoceania -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/29/2006 2:03:17 PM)
quote: Most would say it is another example of a government going about its business and innocent people dying as a result. Take a poll outside of the US and you'll find many people believe the roots of what happened in New York lie in US foreign policy. It's hardly radical thinking and I'll hazard a guess that many in the US feel the same way. This American feels that way, but I am not very nationalistic, other than trying to improve my country from the inside in my own small way. It takes objectivity, heart, and ability to form opinions with an open mind to realize that even on the national scale we reap what we sow... or Karma if you will. Being at peace means trying to view things from the perspective of people who have a grievance with you.

Real0ne -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/29/2006 2:04:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Was Kennedy in cahoots with the mafia? Didn't Hoover have a long file on Kennedy detailing all his dodgy dealings? kennedy's are the mob! Joe kennedy, jf's daddy made his money running illegal booze, then onward to better things by swindling the stock markets! LOL The mob put jfk in office, the chicago one was the one who tiped the scales i forget what his name was marciano or something....

losttreasure -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/29/2006 2:29:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Put simply, there's nothing wrong with enterprise and people making a success of their lives but can you honestly say with a straight face that one man having the combined wealth of 110 million people (many of whom can't afford a home or health care) is an acceptable state of affairs? NG, let me ask you, please... at what point would you say a person has too much money? Just where do you draw the line and say that this fellow may work and earn this much, but no more... no matter how valued his work is, no matter how far reaching in scope? And in the case of Bill Gates... no matter that he grew a business that today employs over 71,000 well-paid people worldwide on a full-time basis, not counting the endless numbers of people who are partially employed directly, or contractually through other businesses who provide raw materials, components, R&D, packaging, and manufacturing services? What value would you put on Bill Gates' contribution to society... purely from an economic stance?

meatcleaver -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/29/2006 2:44:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 So Meat , can we assume you are in favor of revolution? If so what socio economic system are wanting to revolt for? As viable modes I really only see 3, Capitalist industrialist, Marxist industrialist, or Sharia Islam. A "Revolutionary with no plan or orginization(cause)". That's been a Corparate Icon of Sexy since James Dean. I was just pointing out the short comings of western democracy, you only change the arses on the seats in a capitalist democracy and nothing else. Western elections are a way of blowing steam and change very little. As Tony Benn, a British politician pointed out, every major reform was won by the people outside Parliament (and I bet this is the same in the US too. Civil rights spring to mind.) and only rubber stamped and claimed by the politicians afterwards. If you want meaningful reform you have to fight for it. That doesn't mean with guns and molotov cocktails or any sort of violence but it does usually mean making sacrifices of some kind.

meatcleaver -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/29/2006 2:48:32 PM)
Don't forget that most of the rich and the establishment figures in whatever country you care to choose got their money dishonestly and its to them the majority kow tow to. Do you really think they deserve some sort of respect? Do you really think their wealth should be protected by the state when they most probably stole it in the first place? Someone in one of the threads mentioned the Kennedys got their money through illegal booze and I think you could go through a whole bundle of well known American names and find the same. I know the British establishment gained all their wealth dishonestly. I can't be bothered to go from country to country but we all know its true.

losttreasure -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/29/2006 3:22:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: losttreasure As I've said, there will always be inequities in life. We learn to accept and live with what we have, and not lament that others might be more fortunate. If we're smart, we learn to take what we have and make the most of it. What is life if you can't enjoy it? Accepting what you have is grand if you're in position to say "this is my lot and I'm more than happy with it". I would define British Conservatism as aiming to maintain the status quo and maintain a social structure of haves and have nots. Why should the have nots accept their lot when we have a monarchy who do nothing for their obscene wealth and luxury and we have prominent businessmen not paying their taxes. Ditto the US. Why should the 700,000 to 2 million homeless plus those who can't afford basic necessities such as health care have to accept it? Are you saying you believe this is the best the human race can do? Absolutely not. But, you will find that I am a capitalist with regard to humanity... give us freedom to grow, and we will. [;)] The really important part of my quote above was, "If we're smart, we learn to take what we have and make the most of it." Accepting what you have doesn't mean you cannot improve upon it if it is within your power to do so. It does mean, however, that you'll be a lot happier if you aren't pre-occupied with the fact that there are people who have more than you... be it more money, more intelligence, more talent, or more beauty. It's simply a more peaceful philosophy. In terms of equity in wealth distribution, the United States, in a list of 126 countries, is only a little higher than the middle of the pack in terms of its gini coefficient. In other words, compared to the US, a little less than half of the countries have a wider gap between the poor and the rich, and a little more than half of the countries have a higher level of equality. Does that make us good? No. But it does indicate that with all the variety of political and economic systems in the world, we aren't doing that bad. And considering our age and the fact that we have one of the highest standards of living across the board, I'd say we're doing something right. Is the United States perfect? Far from it. But my point all along has been that even with all our faults, we're a sight better off than many. Just give us time and we'll work out the kinks... we're only a little over 200 years old, after all. Of note, the country with the best gini index was the small Shi'a Islam country of Azerbaijan. Of course, as the per person gross national income, adjusted for purchasing power parity, was just $3,390 (US) in 2003, I wouldn't exactly call it a model for the rest of the world. If you are interested, you can read more about Azerbaijan here, here, and here. Those are reports from the World Bank, United Nations, and World Health Organization, respectively. None of them paint a very pretty picture.

luckydog1 -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/29/2006 4:07:17 PM)
In a democractic system you would expect ideas to percolate up to the gov. But in the US Civil rights cases, I would disagree. First emancipation was an un popular move in a war, enacted through Martial law. Brown v Board of education was a Court ruling, and was enforced by millitary troops in many places, I assume you approve of the use of the military in such a manner. The civil rights amendments were passed by the Congress. Ironically civil rights were pushed mainly by the Capitalists and Christians, who seem to be loathed by you. I can accept that revolution does not have to mean violence, but you have asserted that violence would be used to stop change, so it seems neccessary in order for the revolution to suceed. That is if you want more revolution than a different ass in the seat of power, technically an election,, which you already stated would not change anything. You will also have to use violence to controll everyone that does not agree with your revolution. But what form of revolution? What cause are you rallying to? What sort of sacrifices are you talking about? Posting on line because its fun? Going to Chile to hang out and get inspiration? Honestly with the time we have all spent reading/commenting on this thread, we could have gotten a part time job and bought a solar panel. That would do more to help the world than wasting electrcity and resources to bitch on line. But I am a Capitalist, so choose to spend some of my profits and time on this. What are the Anti Capitalists excuses, how can you justify this sonombulistic waste of time?

Real0ne -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/29/2006 5:55:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Don't forget that most of the rich and the establishment figures in whatever country you care to choose got their money dishonestly and its to them the majority kow tow to. Do you really think they deserve some sort of respect? Do you really think their wealth should be protected by the state when they most probably stole it in the first place? Someone in one of the threads mentioned the Kennedys got their money through illegal booze and I think you could go through a whole bundle of well known American names and find the same. I know the British establishment gained all their wealth dishonestly. I can't be bothered to go from country to country but we all know its true. yep and therein lies the problem... and many others come from the old courty. in effect with exceptions to the bill gates types the ruling elite are for the most part criminals who got away with it and now at the helm of the nation! Helps me to sleep well at night LOL

Marc2b -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/29/2006 8:38:18 PM)
quote: So you don't think the richest 1% in the US that own 40% of all the wealth of the USA have an unequal influence on decision making there? No. quote: You don't think government is overly sensitive towards their interest? No. quote: Do you really think the government cares as much for a grease monkey as conniving fraudster that has accumulated millions of dollors in wealth? No. quote: Do you really believe your vote is as good a millionaire's who is funding the politician you are voting for? Yes. Assuming both are counted equally. quote: Doesn't look that good does it but at least if you don't interfer in their wealth making you can pollute to your heart's content and buy all the trash you need. I am curious as to what you are basing these presumptions about me on. Correct me if I am wrong but you also seem to have a mind set that anyone who has accumulated wealth is automatically a criminal of some sort.

Marc2b -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/29/2006 9:33:08 PM)
Just some comments and questions. quote: 5. Eliminate property taxes on all property that is used directly by the owner. In other words a persons primary residence wouldn't be taxed, but a apartment complex would. This would make ownership much better than renting, and more affordable. Promoting wealth accumulation of the lower/middle class. I have no problem with eliminating property tax but in your scenario apartment dwellers would be the ones paying property tax, via their rent. It seems to me a trifle unfair that people who can’t (or choose not to) own a home have to pay property taxes while the landlord doesn’t. quote: 6. Legalization of Pot and other minimally harmful drugs. This would free up tons of prison space, collect some taxes. The savings could be put into treatment and enforcement activities for hard drugs. Amen! Preach on brother! And remember, pass the dutchie on the left hand side! quote: 7 Mandatory Teaching of Individual rights and freedoms starting at around 4th grade and mandatory testing each year after as a prerequisite for passing to the next grade. I would add to that economic instruction. The level of economic intelligence in this country is appalling. Emphasis in the high school years should be placed upon home economics. I’m not talking about how to bake cookies but rather how to maintain a household budget, how to balance a checkbook, etc. quote: 9.Automatic work availability for those that can work. Whether it be cleaning ditches, or answering phones... etc.... No one should starve or be without work if they want it, but no one except for the mentally disabled or completely physically disabled should get money for not working. A choice... not just distribution. If a person is able to work and declines the work provided then they get nothing. I have a problem with this one. Just how do we ensure that the jobs are there? Jobs exists for one simple reason: somebody wants something done and are unable or unwilling to do it their self, so they offer to pay others to do it for them. Jobs can’t be legislated into existence. quote: 10. Universal education availablity. Capped at level to be reveiwed annually. With the basis being a mid-tier state school. Both rich and poor would get this credit. The problem with education isn’t it’s availability but rather what’s being taught. Therein lies the rub since different people have different views on what their children should be taught. I would continue to make a public education readily available but give everyone the right to opt out and home school their children (a right many don’t have). quote: I guess what I'm saying is I don't look at a Bill Gates and think he has to much money. I look and say why don't those people have more money. Someone once said (and I forget who so all due credit to whoever credit is due) that the best way a person can fight poverty is to not be poor their self. quote: Instead I think it works much better when the poor can keep more money that they work for... Amen again.

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/29/2006 11:16:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b Just some comments and questions. quote: 5. Eliminate property taxes on all property that is used directly by the owner. In other words a persons primary residence wouldn't be taxed, but a apartment complex would. This would make ownership much better than renting, and more affordable. Promoting wealth accumulation of the lower/middle class. I have no problem with eliminating property tax but in your scenario apartment dwellers would be the ones paying property tax, via their rent. It seems to me a trifle unfair that people who can’t (or choose not to) own a home have to pay property taxes while the landlord doesn’t. quote: 6. Legalization of Pot and other minimally harmful drugs. This would free up tons of prison space, collect some taxes. The savings could be put into treatment and enforcement activities for hard drugs. Amen! Preach on brother! And remember, pass the dutchie on the left hand side! quote: 7 Mandatory Teaching of Individual rights and freedoms starting at around 4th grade and mandatory testing each year after as a prerequisite for passing to the next grade. I would add to that economic instruction. The level of economic intelligence in this country is appalling. Emphasis in the high school years should be placed upon home economics. I’m not talking about how to bake cookies but rather how to maintain a household budget, how to balance a checkbook, etc. quote: 9.Automatic work availability for those that can work. Whether it be cleaning ditches, or answering phones... etc.... No one should starve or be without work if they want it, but no one except for the mentally disabled or completely physically disabled should get money for not working. A choice... not just distribution. If a person is able to work and declines the work provided then they get nothing. I have a problem with this one. Just how do we ensure that the jobs are there? Jobs exists for one simple reason: somebody wants something done and are unable or unwilling to do it their self, so they offer to pay others to do it for them. Jobs can’t be legislated into existence. quote: 10. Universal education availablity. Capped at level to be reveiwed annually. With the basis being a mid-tier state school. Both rich and poor would get this credit. The problem with education isn’t it’s availability but rather what’s being taught. Therein lies the rub since different people have different views on what their children should be taught. I would continue to make a public education readily available but give everyone the right to opt out and home school their children (a right many don’t have). quote: I guess what I'm saying is I don't look at a Bill Gates and think he has to much money. I look and say why don't those people have more money. Someone once said (and I forget who so all due credit to whoever credit is due) that the best way a person can fight poverty is to not be poor their self. quote: Instead I think it works much better when the poor can keep more money that they work for... Amen again. Well as far as the property tax goes, that is sorta the logic, in that if it's cheaper long-term as much as possible to buy more people would be apt to buy there own home. And since the tax would only be investment/income properties I don't see a contradiction. I would think for this to properly work one would have to open up more loan programs for the lower class, maybe. I do think home ownership is the most basic aspect of building a strong middleclass though, and some way should be devised to encourage it as much as possible. If there are no property taxes though on commercial property, then the owner in that case would not have an incentive to utilize the land and in theory could sit on it indefinitely waiting for a housing boom or development, to the detriment of pretty much everybody. As long as there is some kind of tax on property solely used to derive income it will more than likely be sold, or used in most cases. As far as the work availability, that is pretty easy. The work may not be necessarily effective, or even completely necessary. But creating work for money is not the hardest thing, and the parks always need cleaned, Sidewalks swept, walls painted, etc.... The point is really that the concept of work for money should always be present, not money for sitting on butt... Basicly if the government can give money out already, does it really much matter if the work being done is technically the most efficient or needed work? It wouldnt cost much more. And one wouldn't have to deal with the approval process present today. Sure, on the education thing, I was assuming that the cost would be based on a state school, and a credit could go to any school that would qualify. The state thing is just for establishing a base line cost for the benefit.

meatcleaver -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/30/2006 2:17:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent There are examples of political movements in Britain (19th and 20th centuries) that have caused real change and improvements. If enough people want change then a political movement can make it happen. The government are supposed to be our servants which brings me back to my point that we have the power to enable any sort of government we want (which tells the story of why this Labour government are acting like conservatives). 1 in 4 voted for the Labour Party in the last election so no real mandate, only the usual anemic one. However, the biggest peace time demonstration could not stop Blair taking us to war in Iraq. Which suggests to me that only violent confrontation will make the government listen which is probably true. Things have to be pretty desperate for someone to put their (nominal) freedom at risk to violently confront the government. The anti-war demonstration proved, the British government doesn't listen to the will of the people. Its not a case of people getting the government they want, its a question of whether people want to risk prison to try and get a decent government. It is the electoral system that allows this where in German or France, the government party con expect to get wiped out in an election for something similar which is why Britain and not France and Germany is the country at war in Iraq. It is Parliament that refuses to reform the electiral system, not the voters.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/30/2006 2:49:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY So, I guess what you mean is, that the 3000+ people who were murdered on 9/11 ... deserved it? Firm, talk about putting words in peoples' mouths. Not mine and I'm sure MC can speak up for himself but come on that is a very lazy post to say the least. Most would say it is another example of a government going about its business and innocent people dying as a result. Take a poll outside of the US and you'll find many people believe the roots of what happened in New York lie in US foreign policy. It's hardly radical thinking and I'll hazard a guess that many in the US feel the same way. Northern, I don't see it as lazy at all. What I'm trying to do is point out the consequence of that kind of thinking. "We deserved it" is the logical conclusion of his position, but it doesn't sound so good, so he is avoiding saying it. Avoidance doesn't help solve problems. Avoiding the logical conclusion of the belief that US foreign policy somehow makes killing 3000 + civilians acceptable isn't - unfortunately - radical. It's all too common. Doesn't make it right. I've had several post touching on the tip of this issue, since thompsonx brought it up, and it's really off-topic, so I won't go into it any deeper unless pressed, but it's certain a topic worth discussing, in another thread, if we can keep all the one line, snide remark posters at bay (not talking about you, just to be clear). FirmKY

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