RE: things are changing...and the v-nillas are scared (Full Version)

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meatcleaver -> RE: things are changing...and the v-nillas are scared (12/17/2006 5:10:01 AM)

First. It was in a magazine. Having once done some freelance work for a woman's magazine of this sort, I wouldn't give the findings of any research they do head space. They are usually put together by three women and a cat. There is a publishing house down Farringdon Road in London (not named because I don't want to be sued), they have about six floors of offices in an old warehouse building and in each office a different magazine (mainly women's magazines) is put together by a typical team such as the said three women and a cat or two women, one gay and a cat.

I think it goes without saying that most men like their women feminine, there aren't that many men that prefer the bricklaying dyke brand of woman. However, I do prefer my women fiesty but what I can't stand is feisty women that having met their match, retreat behind  the submissive woman facade to avoid being treated in a reciprocal way by men .




catfood -> RE: things are changing...and the v-nillas are scared (12/17/2006 5:34:08 AM)

after changing my shorts due to pissing myself laughing....

wow, what an article.  such an entertaining jumble of paranoia, conspiracy theories, topped with a total lack of structure to his argument.  this guy has a PhD?  in english lit, no less.  apparently he was on leave for the "how to write a logical, intelligible paper" segment of grad school.  utter balderdash on the whole.  he forgot to add that women are agents of satan...

i think the assumption that three women and a cat wrote this is insulting....to the cat.  my cats are much smarter than this. as for the women, welll, we all know (or were told in this riveting article) that they were probably busy pleasuring themselves with vegetables, hence the poor writing.






maitreDuAcier -> RE: things are changing...and the v-nillas are scared (12/17/2006 6:09:28 AM)

LaTigresse observation seems to correlate with my experience.  What I hear from women (especially in their twenties and early thirties) is that they want a man who will grow up, put on their big boy pants and take care of the household.  They want a man that makes decisions and a man they can trust to make the right decisions.  The man-hating rabid independant emasculating feminist I find rarely.
Feminizing men?  I wish more men knew how to groom and dress themselves well.  The problem with the metrosexual movement is that it went  for Carson Kressley instead of Humphry Bogart.  Bogart took the time to look good while he was roughing people up.




MaryT -> RE: things are changing...and the v-nillas are scared (12/17/2006 6:47:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mechbot972007

Respectfully-
many relationships are about power...who has it and who will submit to the one yelding it.  Read the following then let me know what you may think about it..

Time to Be Men Again



I find the article as repulsive as I would find the same tenor and assumptions regarding race instead of gender.  Since when is BDSM about dictating how "everyone" should live?

MaryT




Rover -> RE: things are changing...and the v-nillas are scared (12/17/2006 7:11:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlesarbonn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssScarlet

Just an FYI...even if the link had not been provided, as long as credit is given to the original author there are no copyrighting laws being broken.
Mistress Scarlet


Actually, that's not correct.  You do not have a right to reproduce articles simply by giving credit to the author.  Here are a few links relevant to the topic:
 
http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html
 
http://www.whatiscopyright.org/
 
http://www.copyright.gov/
 
John


§ 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use38 Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include —  (1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; (2) the nature of the copyrighted work; (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work. The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.



Fair use allows reproduction of short excepts.  The OP pasted (nearly) the entire article.  That is why Moderator Eleven correctly truncated (shortened) the copy and paste.  Collarme understands the law as it applies to online reproductions. 
 
This topic is covered in your own copy and paste as follows:

quote:


(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole;


No one has the right to reproduce in whole, or in large part, another person's copyrighted work.  With or without attribution.

In fact, a successful copyright infringement lawsuit was brought against a magazine for reproducing a mere 300 words from a 200,000 word manuscript.  Simply because those 300 words were of central importance to the manuscript itself.
 
John




Lashra -> RE: things are changing...and the v-nillas are scared (12/17/2006 11:33:48 AM)

I don't think the vanilla's are scared and the women who are happy with their lives as career women aren't scared either. I think people should realize that if everyone had equal rights and were allowed to be themselves, the world would be a much happier place and we would all get along better.
But human beings as they are will always find something to bicker about and the hunger for control seems to be never ending. I will never understand why "some" men/women feel that they must control "all" men/women, I can only attribute it to a deep seated insecurity. Luckily in My life, I control what goes on and will always do so until the day I stop breathing.

~Lashra






Nosathro -> RE: things are changing...and the v-nillas are scared (12/17/2006 12:06:47 PM)

Tal and greetings
 
Suddenly I am reminded of a novelity song by Leonard Nimoy, called "Highly Illogical" a part goes something like this:
 
"They fall in love, they marry,
She changes his clothes, the way he combes his hair,
She gets him to change his job,
Then she complains he is not the man she married"
or something like it.
 
I wish you well
 
Nosathro
 




mechbot972007 -> RE: things are changing...and the v-nillas are scared (12/18/2006 11:08:52 AM)

weres zuzu's pedels...reading this tread i feel like i was in a warp of time..i do want to say that im sorry for the infringment on the writters rites...it was done without mallace...want to say thank you to those who tryed to put a spin on my error i know it was a dog...i also wanted to say that im not a 16yr prodick of the higher school system..hell most of the time..i can't even spell good...but my reading is getting better...

i posted (re-posted the org work) because i thought this was a subject that would show the rings (when you cut a tree and reed the rings as to its history) with in the BDSM and the vinilla lifestyles and that even tho each group is at the polar opisets of the other, they have alot in common.  Many of my friends think BDSM is one thing...that thing turns out to be a very narrow view.  The article that i posted also has a very narrow view of one that many may mistake as the view of many vinilla's. 

lol...i think its funny that i thought because we had shared the whip (getting or giving) that "we" were on the same page...this posting shows that the bad and the good of the vinilla lifestyle is deeply entrinched within even this "sub" cultural..

well...thank you
hope all have a great h-day (to some the h= hell or holy  :-)
Respectfully,
chris




drawntothedark -> RE: things are changing...and the v-nillas are scared (12/18/2006 11:51:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Not to bunch anyone's boxers here but something I hear from many (straight) women is the shortage of men willing and able to step up to the plate and be the dominant one in the house. Too many wanting the good stuff and not willing to work at doing the tough stuff.



That is what I was going to say.

They love you "submitting" sexually, but let a problem arise, a real problem, and most will tuck their tails between their legs and run. Which is why I love D/s!




Pixiepunk -> RE: things are changing...and the v-nillas are scared (12/18/2006 11:55:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mechbot972007

weres zuzu's pedels...reading this tread i feel like i was in a warp of time..i do want to say that im sorry for the infringment on the writters rites...it was done without mallace...want to say thank you to those who tryed to put a spin on my error i know it was a dog...i also wanted to say that im not a 16yr prodick of the higher school system..hell most of the time..i can't even spell good...but my reading is getting better...

i posted (re-posted the org work) because i thought this was a subject that would show the rings (when you cut a tree and reed the rings as to its history) with in the BDSM and the vinilla lifestyles and that even tho each group is at the polar opisets of the other, they have alot in common.  Many of my friends think BDSM is one thing...that thing turns out to be a very narrow view.  The article that i posted also has a very narrow view of one that many may mistake as the view of many vinilla's. 

lol...i think its funny that i thought because we had shared the whip (getting or giving) that "we" were on the same page...this posting shows that the bad and the good of the vinilla lifestyle is deeply entrinched within even this "sub" cultural..

well...thank you
hope all have a great h-day (to some the h= hell or holy  :-)
Respectfully,
chris


*blinks eyes*




CandleInTheWind -> RE: things are changing...and the v-nillas are scared (12/18/2006 12:00:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VelvetVise13

Regardless of the copyright debate, back to the issue at hand - my personal opinion is that there must be a dominate party in every relationship.  Just as there is only one CEO in any corporation, there should only be one CEO in a relationship.  If everyone is yelping for complete equal rights there will be anarchy because some of us are just naturally born leaders.

I happen to be in a relationship with a man that is a natural leader.  Even though I am very strong and in control of a lot of things in my life, when it comes to he and I in our personal life, he's the dominate party.  I am appreciative and accept that.  Because I respect and trust him, I can submit to him.

It doesn't demean me in any way for him to maintain dominance over me.

I read an article a while back that said American women in the 50's had a happier home life, more and better sex than women today.  I'm not suggesting we go back half a century because I for one don't think I could pull off that June Cleaver thing, but it does make you wonder how, as a female, you can have the best of both worlds.



Velvet....

I have this inate feeling that The only thing that all this called equality gave a woman was more things that were are expected to do...  I personally would love to go back tot he days of worrying about what to make my man for dinner...and not being expected to be all to everyone.   I personally would love to be able to be the soft and emotionally squishy one and leave the disciplining of the unmentionables to the lord and master of the house....  I wouldnt mind lobve honor and obey as long as he is willing to cherish  till death do us part..

but that is just my nickels worth

but as you said not everyone is of the donna reed persuasion...




LotusSong -> RE: things are changing...and the v-nillas are scared (12/18/2006 12:59:44 PM)

Ah the 50's.. A time of mind numbing boredome for the wife and a husband who came home and fell asleep on the couch after supper.




Rover -> RE: things are changing...and the v-nillas are scared (12/18/2006 3:09:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mechbot972007

lol...i think its funny that i thought because we had shared the whip (getting or giving) that "we" were on the same page...this posting shows that the bad and the good of the vinilla lifestyle is deeply entrinched within even this "sub" cultural..



Chris, I think you're under the mistaken impression that Henry Makow is a lifestyler.  To the best of my knowledge he's not (though someone may have information to suggest that he is... I don't claim to know first hand).  By my estimation, an objective evaluation of his work would suggest that he is simply an avid conspiracy theorist and ardent hater.
 
http://thetruthseeker.co.uk/columnist.asp?ID=4
 
Though each of you can read his work and decide for yourselves.
 
John




OnyxGoddess -> RE: things are changing...and the v-nillas are scared (12/18/2006 5:25:41 PM)

The 50's....segregation of the races and a time where you could still beat your unmentionables as a form of punishment and not have DCF beating down your door.  People still respected the law and had some scrupples.  Let's not forget...sex was never discussed at home, homosexuality was the ultimate no no and bdsm...well you just didnt say you did those things.  
 
~O~
 
by the way I didnt think this thread was about proper citation or use of a source. 




CreativeDominant -> RE: things are changing...and the v-nillas are scared (12/18/2006 5:33:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Not to bunch anyone's boxers here but something I hear from many (straight) women is the shortage of men willing and able to step up to the plate and be the dominant one in the house. Too many wanting the good stuff and not willing to work at doing the tough stuff.

I honestly am not man bashing, I have many friends that are male.[:D]  I just wonder if with the change in women's education, their awareness of the world in general and just their over all confidence in their own abilities and power if the barre of their expectations of a dominant partner has been raised and men are struggling with that. Sort of along the lines of the theory of, educating the citizens of a country and they begin demanding more of their political leaders, kinda thought.


LaT, I think you have a valid point.  Many men today are not willing to step up and be the leader in the relationship.  Many are too self-absorbed or unwilling to let go of their friends to build something more than friendship with one.  But, let's be fair about this...~ puts on F. R. suit, just in case~...I came up in the late 60's - early 70's.  It was a time when "I am woman, hear me roar" was not only being used as a tagline, many women took it as their personal mantra.  And part of that mantra became the 'need' for men to be sensitive to the woman's wants and needs and desires AND an awareness of how badly women had treated men in the past and how we were to be viewed with at least one jaundiced eye in case we showed any sign of trying to 'control' them or, as Lotus put it, put the boot to their neck once more.  So...you had a bunch of men trying to out-Alan Alda Alan Alda.  I was guilty of it myself for awhile until I could just not stand at least stating my viewpoint.  Even in my marriage, I tried to be sensitive and understanding and be "equals" in my relationship.  It didn't work...not for me and not for many others, men AND women.  Many women found that these men had gone overboard and viewed them as weak because they never stood up for themselves (never mind the fact that, many times ((though not all)), when they did...it was seen by many of these women as the men trying to control or 'put the boot to the neck'). 

I came out of the wreckage of my marriage with one clear viewpoint.  As someone else noted, there has to be a leader in the relationship.  That is going to be me.  I have no desire to stop any woman, submissive or otherwise, from achieving her goals.  But I will be damned if they are going to walk over me or cast me aside or view me as the enemy (since I am male) to do so.




LaTigresse -> RE: things are changing...and the v-nillas are scared (12/18/2006 6:55:44 PM)

Please forgive me if my train of thought is hard to follow. I am still in process. CD's post got me started thinking.

In the time frame of the 60's and 70's when women began to come into their own, demand and begin to get more equality I can understand how it would have been very difficult for men. Like I said, I am close to alot of guys....brothers, son, ex and current spouse, co-workers........etc etc etc. Being an avid observer of human beings I have gained some small insight at how most men tend to think. (please note I said most....and that is based upon my own observations) Men like to have a plan, a course of action. They quite often do not like change. Hell, re-arranging the furniture can throw some guys for a loop.I can only imagine how difficult that time period must have been for some guys after generations of being told what being a man was all about then BAM!!! the rules all changed.

And then, I started thinking, what about the women. The submissive women. What inner turmoil they must have felt. To be told that they were supposed to want this whole new set of rules, this new freedom. And yet, to have so much of it be a contradiction to their very nature. As time as gone on it is almost as though there is a reverse predjudism towards women that want the "old" role in a relationship.

As a dominant woman I realized when I first came to collarme that I was guilty of some of those feelings. I have also seen other dominant women say that to see a woman submit or bottom to a man is difficult for them. Perhaps for me it is slightly different, being only specifically interested in a submissive woman so it may not be so much a stretch as it could be for a straight dominant woman, I don't know.

I know that I had to really think this thru. To come to the conclusion that the roles in a relationship should never be determined by gender but by what lies in the heart as being right for that individual. The joy is in finding a partner that fits their hearts role with yours.

My feelings towards straight submissive women have certainly changed, as have my feelings towards straight dominant men. For that I am really glad, it is freeing. I have learned to see the value in each of us taking our own path and then pursuing it to be the best us we can be. To stop trying to fit a mold yet not stagnate or be lazy and take what we perceive as the easiest route.

In taking this little thought process I was thinking of the difficulties of each. There really isn't any role in this that is easier than the other. There is however, many that will be nearly impossible if they are not true to ourself.




MaryT -> RE: things are changing...and the v-nillas are scared (12/18/2006 8:13:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Please forgive me if my train of thought is hard to follow.



It was not hard to follow and made a lot of sense to me.  [:)]

MaryT




Amaros -> RE: things are changing...and the v-nillas are scared (12/18/2006 8:29:24 PM)

Sounds to me like the guy can't get laid. The dynamic, up until the sexual revolution of the Sixties and Seventies was based primarily on the economic dominance of men. First you have to understand the historical background.

To begin with, all patrimonial cultures, based on inheritance through the first born male heir, tend to be somewhat misogynic, and demand chastity from women - before DNA testing, there was no way to be assured that your firstborn son was actually yours, unless your mate had been under nonstop scrutiny from pretty much the day she was born to the day she died (usually during childbirth). In certain Muslim cultures, the suspicion of women crosses into outright neurosis, while others go so far as to try to remove any possibility a woman might stray for pleasure, by performing clitorodectomies.

In Western civilization, we developed the dichotomy of the Virgin/Whore - the former the receptacle of all that is good and chaste, the other a demonic seductress. This abstraction carried, and still carries, enormous political weight, while in the practical sense, it was convenient for men to have a virgin to bear and raise the children, and whore on the side for recreation.

The fallout of this, echoing the clitordectomy, is that it was highly suspicious for a woman, a wife at least, to take pleasure in sex at all, i.e., by the same logic, if she takes pleasure in sex, there is no guarantee she'll only take it with her husband, so there was no pressure on men to perform or even consider his wife’s pleasure, quite the opposite: women not only had no souls, which justified treating them like breeding stock, but they were considered incapable of orgasm, and thus one need not feel any remorse for not giving them any - sex is for procreation, etc., etc. Prostitution, meanwhile, continued to mysteriously thrive.

Jumping all the way ahead to the Sixties, the sexual revolution was more or less a direct result of women going to work during the war effort of WWII - they had always worked of course, but generally within the confines of the nuclear and more common extended family of the predominate agrarian social economy that prevailed up until after WWII. In this system, the family was run much like a business - everybody either worked together or everybody starved.

The urban-industrial political economy that had been slowly growing however, operated by a slightly different set of rules, one in which women were almost entirely dependent on men economically, and this was typically enforced through social controls: very difficult for a woman to gain economic independence on her own merit, and social scrutiny demanded obedience to the husband - even if the woman happened to be the dominant person in the dyad, income was mainly dependent on the husband, and if it appeared that he was "weak", the resulting loss of social status might well be reflected in a loss of economic status.

Hence, the urban-industrial political economy spawned the "nag", an ambitious woman with no way to persue her ambition save through her possibly less ambitious husband, alongside the demure and chaste "virginal" wife.

This demographic shift had in truth begun much earlier, following the civil war - with so many men dead and families broken, entire populations uprooted, women were forced to find work outside the home in any capacity they could, in order to keep their children fed - usually as domestics, and they were "kept in their place" - with this small degree of economic independence, did not come social mobility.

Similarly, an almost underground "cult" of feminine sensuality had been slowly gaining ground, probably since the enlightenment, among the bourgeoisie, the Romantic movement of the Eighteenth century was one of the earlier outward manifestations, echoing the romanticism of the Cathari of the Langdu'oc, violently crushed by the Roman Church in an earlier age.

In this century, this cult of sensuality became associated with the progressive movement, which included feminism, so at the same time women gained some measure of economic independence with accompanying status - Rosie the Riveter was a hero, not drudging dyke - and the patriarchal grip loosened - not only had the men returning from WWII experienced a taste of unrestrained sexual freedom when they were sent off to war with smiles on their faces, but they returned to a world where the ratio ran towards an excess of women - at the same time, staring death in the face had left most of them little inclined toward politics, sexual or otherwise, and we got the cocktail culture of the Fifties and Sixties - these people wanted to party.

This is getting pretty long winded, but if you've been paying attention, you'll remember that the big demographic shift here is the entrance of women into the workplace - before WWII, it was a rare thing, and generally only in certain professions: teaching, some secretarial, shopkeeping, domestics, etc. - now, women war making inroads into traditionally male dominated fields - not without resistance or grumbling, but steadily and inexorably nevertheless.

The balance of power has shifted, and it's economic power - but it has only shifted so far really, as to give women some choice where they essentially had none before.

Socially, the pendulum swings back and forth, each swing precipitating a reaction formation in the opposite direction - feminism spawned "The Total Woman", whereupon feminists became radicalized, etc., etc., until you have almost entirely separate cultures in uneasy balance, with so many crossovers and variations it's almost impossible to keep track of them all: religious agrarian traditionalists, secular traditionalists, agrarian agapists, and their urban counterparts, swingers, secular virgins, gays, lesbians, etc., etc. At the same time, feminism itself has swung back and forth between extremes, from a sudden desire to enjoy sex, to being content with a modicum of respect for being mothers, as opposed to domestic drudges and breeding machines, to a total rejection of men, to porn queens, etc, etc., and this is probably what the author is complaining about - just bad timing for him - in five years it’ll all be swinging back the other direction.

The beauty, of course, is that in such a milieu, is that it's all good: there is bound to be something for everybody, the only problem being that there are always those who cannot accept that there are those who perversely refuse to do things their way - and devote their energies to attempts to distort the political-legal system in favor of some imagined ideal of perfect conformity.

Briefly aside, in truth, culture advances through a combination of both conformity and non-conformity, it isn't either/or - non-conformists innovate and advance, while conformists consolidate and stabilize - politicians and businessmen just sit around and figure out how to profit from it and take credit for it.

The irony here, is that these conformists are typically not secular conservatives, but religious conservatives, and the irony is that it's primarily the profit driven capitalism that religious conservatism has sold out to that assures women are going to remain a permanent part of the workforce - which thrives on cheap labor - and thus, no longer subject to the economic extortion that was able to enforce the Virgin/Whore mythology.




SirLordTrainer -> RE: things are changing...and the v-nillas are scared (12/19/2006 2:37:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

Whenever I see something like this.. I'm reminded of the kindergarten boy  mentality.  "You don't play FAIR!.. I'm the daddy and YOU'RE the mommy and  (stomping foot) YOU Have to stay home and I get to go to work!"  "Why can't you just obey me and leave it at that?"
 
 
Really, we're a pretty agreeable bunch when you take your foot off the back of our necks.


I prefer My boot on her back but that's just Me..




LotusSong -> RE: things are changing...and the v-nillas are scared (12/19/2006 4:16:50 AM)

Betty Friedan has since apologized.. what more do you want? :)




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