Why is it so hard?

Why is it so hard? (Full Version)

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Aine -> Why is it so hard? (12/16/2006 10:23:35 PM)
Considering the current temper of topics lately, which in some ways I'm glad I've missed in the attempt to fix my network, I've come across a question in my head that I've been pondering while browsing a few of the threads. Why is it so hard for people to put across their opinion and/or ideas as it pertains to -them-, rather than making sweeping statements that either deliberately or inadvertantly put everyone else of a differing opinion/idea in the "wrong"? Why is it so hard for someone to merely say: "This is what I think simply because it is how I choose to be/live/work/think, and it has no bearing or is any better or more "right" than those that do things different from me."? Why is it so hard for people to accept that people do things differently and be ok with that? Why do they have to get so confrontational when trying to express their ideas? Why can't they take a more laid back tone, offer their ideas to others without immediately turning to insults and thinly veiled anger? I understand that people get heated over things. It's human nature. But honestly....sometimes do you step back and wonder at yourself, and ask yourself why you let yourself get so deeply involved in something that tends to be essentially useless? Instead of making the effort to perhaps try to turn the focus of the fighting into something more like a debate, something where ideas can be well heard and spoken about in a useful manner? In a way that leaves you feeling perhaps a little enlightened. These are things that I've been wondering about for a long time now and have myself tried to accomplish for myself in my dealings with other people. Rather than feeding conflict and turning blue over something that isn't going anywhere, either step back and let things drop, or make a conscious effort to turn it into something useful. It's hard. It takes a lot of effort at first to change the ways we've done things for however many years. But I've come to see in my day to day life, things are calmer, friendlier and a lot less stressful when I make the effort. Just some random thoughts.

crouchingtigress -> RE: Why is it so hard? (12/16/2006 10:49:49 PM)
Wayne Dyer once told me...."i would rather be free then right"......and i gave that some thought...you know how sometimes something is so profound that you sit with it for weeks even months and slowly it starts to change your life in a way that you can never go back? well that was me...i realized that week/month that nothing was worth my enslavement emotionally to a particular POV...that everything in this world is mutable and transient and that i would be so much happier if i stayed fluid and malliable..... and that is the goal...to be happy....when you are on your death bed you dont look back and say gosh i am so glad i was right all that time...you say gosh i am so glad i was happy.... i hope folks wake up and see that they are puppets on a string when they get all mired in one true wayisms...and rightousness. even the domliest dom becomes a puppet...which is obvious to every one but himself: as we see on here so many times. being fluid and malleable is the real control, if you study Tai chi, Akido, or Tao....you realize that true power comes from yielding to force and allowing the other person to use their own momentum to tumble themselves on to the floor...

Aine -> RE: Why is it so hard? (12/16/2006 10:54:23 PM)
That's a good way of looking at it. Thank you for sharing it, it will give me more reason to think on this and really try to come to some of my own conclusions or realizations. Vien Danke

Emperor1956 -> RE: Why is it so hard? (12/16/2006 10:55:14 PM)
Aine, you are making one significant assumption: that people type on here in a way that resembles their "real" lives. Let me make myself clear: I'm not saying people lie online (tho some do) and I think most of us are pretty much WYSIWYG, but this form of discourse leads to a distortion of personality. For example, I'm not near as flip in real life, not nearly as sarcastic or as likely to "lay down the line" as I am on these Boards. Others I'm sure are more or less cautious, more or less arrogant, more or less articulate (tho god forbid some who are less articulate elsewhere!) etc. And, there is also the great likelihood that many on here just don't give a damn what they say. E.

bignipples2share -> RE: Why is it so hard? (12/16/2006 10:55:19 PM)
I think if you don't take the flack as personal, you're doing okay. I did take some of the flack personally, at one point. I think only because I felt that if I didn't, others would be afraid to speak up for who they were and what they were searching for. I know I've changed since I've been here and yes, I have conflicts about many things. The small bit of flack helped with that too, not that I liked it, or appreciated it at the time. I think it's a good thing to hear all sides of the story/debate/anger/pats on the back. Everything has cause and effect. Even if you don't use everything out there that's said, you have a stronger conviction as to why you don't agree with it, stand your ground on your beliefs, or change over to a new way of thinking. Other sides of the equation, no matter how they're presented, offer a different perspective and move you from singular thoughts. ~Big

SusanofO -> RE: Why is it so hard? (12/16/2006 10:56:24 PM)
Wise words indeed, crounching tigress. - Susan

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Why is it so hard? (12/16/2006 11:04:40 PM)
Because people want what they do to be better- to have more meaning, and they can't reconcile that two things can be both amazing and yet completely different at the same time. As the Alanis line goes "Did you just call her amazing? Surely we both can't be amazing?"

Aine -> RE: Why is it so hard? (12/16/2006 11:05:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Emperor1956 Aine, you are making one significant assumption: that people type on here in a way that resembles their "real" lives. Let me make myself clear: I'm not saying people lie online (tho some do) and I think most of us are pretty much WYSIWYG, but this form of discourse leads to a distortion of personality. For example, I'm not near as flip in real life, not nearly as sarcastic or as likely to "lay down the line" as I am on these Boards. Others I'm sure are more or less cautious, more or less arrogant, more or less articulate (tho god forbid some who are less articulate elsewhere!) etc. And, there is also the great likelihood that many on here just don't give a damn what they say. E. That is definitely something I have a tendancy to forget. I completely agree though. No matter how much any one of us will protest to the contrary, most to all of us revel in the freedom of safety in this forum. We can act however we wish without worrying about it one whit. And I'm certainly guilty of it. Not at all times, but in my snarky moments...yeah, it's because of the lack of personal, face-to-face confrontation. But in general...I'm relatively the same, perhaps a bit more reserved. (people can read that however they wish and take it however they wish in direct corrolation with my further up the page remarks in this post) But for those times that people are "striving" to have a civilized debate of ideas....or claim to be, this is where my wonderings come from. How often do these threads manage to ever stay on topic and out of the realm of flame wars? Rarely. (I'm discluding the fun, witty and good-natured thread jacks lol)

bignipples2share -> RE: Why is it so hard? (12/16/2006 11:06:51 PM)
I'll also add that I belive online communities help to toughing a person up for those conflicts that are faced offline. Here you can get angry, you can speculate before you answer that person, take the time to take your foot out of your mouth and respond reasonably. There are going to be many responses to whatever you say online. Some of those are going to make you mad, make you hurt, but they're also going to make you deal with. There's alot to be said of dealing with those who are mean to you. I think it can aide in healing your hurts, make you understand that you're an individual who can deal with problems, teach you how to deal with those problems and the persons who are unruley and provoke you. I think you can take those lessons to offline and resovle conflicts there, once you're learned to deal with them here. Of course, I said this, so this is a pov.

Aine -> RE: Why is it so hard? (12/16/2006 11:14:00 PM)
What you've just added is part of what had made me make the previous statement: "These are things that I've been wondering about for a long time now and have myself tried to accomplish for myself in my dealings with other people. Rather than feeding conflict and turning blue over something that isn't going anywhere, either step back and let things drop, or make a conscious effort to turn it into something useful. It's hard. It takes a lot of effort at first to change the ways we've done things for however many years. But I've come to see in my day to day life, things are calmer, friendlier and a lot less stressful when I make the effort." Having grown up as a child of the booming internet age and having spent much time online (heheh sometimes I think entirely way too much time) the things you've brought up are certainly things that I've learned, experienced and observed and over time, translated it in any way useful into my own personal life and my daily dealings with others.

bignipples2share -> RE: Why is it so hard? (12/16/2006 11:50:11 PM)
I've seen many a cowering person, not in this lifestyle, nor wanting to be in this lifestyle, become a wonder to behold, just by being able to cope with something online. It's truely marvoulous to see them go from hiding in a corner, being beaten down, then to being able to face lifes harsh realities, first on the net, then take it offline and and cope in general with what it slung at them. There are many who achieve their 'backbone' on the net and take it offline and finally be able to 'flip someone the bird' when it's deserved. It's so nice to see someone who couldn't stand up for themselves, fiannally realize that hey, I can do this. Therefore, all the comments are relevant, the good, the bad and the ugly. Oh, and please keep up the funny! They all have merit. ~Big

LaTigresse -> RE: Why is it so hard? (12/17/2006 6:15:06 AM)
Aine, I can only speak for myself but when I see someone like you describe I immediately think....insecure. Then a whole bunch of less flattering things come to mind. Because of my job I spend alot of time dealing with alot of different people. Unfortunately the cross section here tends to reflect a cross section of human kind everywhere. Similar to what LA said, and with the addition of most people's fear of things that are different or outside their box of "normal". As human beings we tend to strike out at those that are, or think, differently than us. I often discuss some of the political threads I read on here with the people in my real life that are actually quite involved, through their employment, in some of the topics and find alot of humour in the skewed "facts" presented that some people base their arguments on. We discuss the issue based upon their personal knowledge (at least what they are able to share) and find it interesting that some people are able to find information and facts to backup their outrageous points regardless of how inaccurate they really are. It is sometimes almost scary, rather like Charles Manson's ability to use the bible to justify his actions and thoughts. I refuse to argue with someone that is just being stubborn and pigheaded. Although I do on occasion find a perverse pleasure in poking sharp sticks just to see them squeal (one of my weaknesses...for Jali's thread) Occasionally I do see a really good debate that is kept to a standard of mutual respect without all the mudslinging, those are the rare treasures.

Serenityy -> RE: Why is it so hard? (12/17/2006 6:21:19 AM)
I think, that for many, their opinions are so personal to themselves, that when they are challenged, they automatically assume a stance of defense. It's inherent within all to defend that which we believe; sometimes to the point of losing all objectivity.

TreSwank -> RE: Why is it so hard? (12/17/2006 6:27:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aine Why is it so hard for people to put across their opinion and/or ideas as it pertains to -them-, rather than making sweeping statements that either deliberately or inadvertantly put everyone else of a differing opinion/idea in the "wrong"? If human beings were guided by rational impulses - the kind that speak up at just the right moment to say "Let's look at BOTH sides of this issue, guys" - there would be no need for prisons, or a criminal justice system for that matter. People are shaped by internal emotional reactions to external stimuli, and different molds are gonna clash over simple issues. Hell..............it entertains the shit out of me.

bandit25 -> RE: Why is it so hard? (12/17/2006 6:28:10 AM)
I've had some very similar thoughts, Aine. In fact, there are times that I write a reply to a particular thread and then hit the cancel button. I think...what's the use? I don't know why people debate certain topics to death. Makes no sense to me at all. We're all going to do whatever we are going to do. I agree that a lively discussion is good...can make one consider povs that one hadn't; however these endless debates on whether submission is a gift...what makes a true slave...what makes a true master...what is D/s...are a waste of time. Don't get me wrong. I love reading other people's points of view...I agree with you, tho, that they are sooooooo confrontational. Your submission is a gift? OK. Yours (pointing to another) isn't? OK If that works for you and yours, great. And whether or not one can "prove" (whatever the hell that means) if submission is a gift or a state of mind or a condition, well, who the hell cares?

juliaoceania -> RE: Why is it so hard? (12/17/2006 7:14:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bandit25 I've had some very similar thoughts, Aine. In fact, there are times that I write a reply to a particular thread and then hit the cancel button. I think...what's the use? I don't know why people debate certain topics to death. Makes no sense to me at all. We're all going to do whatever we are going to do. I agree that a lively discussion is good...can make one consider povs that one hadn't; however these endless debates on whether submission is a gift...what makes a true slave...what makes a true master...what is D/s...are a waste of time. Don't get me wrong. I love reading other people's points of view...I agree with you, tho, that they are sooooooo confrontational. Your submission is a gift? OK. Yours (pointing to another) isn't? OK If that works for you and yours, great. And whether or not one can "prove" (whatever the hell that means) if submission is a gift or a state of mind or a condition, well, who the hell cares? I find myself hitting cancel all the time lately. I think perhaps I have said it all anyways[:D] I have to say that on a personal level I do not feel like arguing things with people that will never see the world the same way as myself, and that is ok that they will not. If everyone thought the same way as me it would be boring.. It takes too much energy to argue things, and I would rather just not go there. I have been reading the boards for the last few days from my Daddy's place, and not taking part of the discussions as much. I have to say seeing people snark each other on different threads is not fun... but there usually is a weekly trainwreck around here, and I plan on never being part of one again. I have other things to be doing[:D]

LaTigresse -> RE: Why is it so hard? (12/17/2006 7:29:44 AM)
Now I know I am not alone in the cancel button thing.

slavejali -> RE: Why is it so hard? (12/17/2006 7:47:35 AM)
quote: Why do they have to get so confrontational when trying to express their ideas? I think, as I read on here recently, that people type as they "think". There is no process in between like they would have in face to face communication. When you're looking at someone it might occur to you to think " Should I say this or that"?...on here people just type thoughts as they come. In a way, I don't think thats necessarily a bad thing if you see it from the perspective that people are just working through their thoughts, and we all know how nuts and amazing and strange the mind can be [;)]

crouchingtigress -> RE: Why is it so hard? (12/17/2006 8:48:00 AM)
i think there is great value to listening and learning the skill set of listening.....there is a concept called "active listening"....this concept comes for the book "non-violent communication" the concept is revolutionary.... *one point the author makes is that real listening should make you tired , it takes that much focus and attention* to detail.. when i am on line i am doing 3 other things at once...i dont think i listen very well....and i dont think others do either..... the fascinating thing for me is that is we all did invest in this skill and learn the techniques how different our life experience would be...**

juliaoceania -> RE: Why is it so hard? (12/17/2006 9:29:16 AM)
quote: *one point the author makes is that real listening should make you tired , it takes that much focus and attention* to detail..** I have noticed that when we have moments where we do not agree (myself and Sinergy) it takes more effort on my part than any other relationship I have thus far tried to have. I spend much of my time trying to bite my tongue, wait my turn, actively hear what he says, acknowledge this in a positive way... it is exhausting! I think most of us (from my experience) have not been taught this skill growing up which means we must acquire it later in life, which is is hard to break established habits. But oh the growth of doing so! I have learned so much lately which I am truly grateful for. These are things I am trying ever so hard to take into all of my other interactions.

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