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Padilla Update - 12/18/2006 2:04:32 AM

Chaingang

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This case is of special interest to me as Padilla is a U.S. citizen that was denied every fundamental right after he was declared an "enemy combatant" - a designation that could apparently apply to anyone. It's very troubling. Jurisdictional challenges are pretty much a thing of the past after the Noriega case. Now, even asserting the status of a U.S. citizen is iffy. In other words, the laws says whatever they say it does as suits their convenience - one day U.S. law extends all over the world, the next it applies only to those who are not enemy combatants. The law has become a total whore.

Previous discussions on the case (my own):

"Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire"
http://www.collarchat.com/m_526474/mpage_4/key_/tm.htm#531600

"Terrorist Threat = Propaganda"
http://www.collarchat.com/m_535527/mpage_2/key_/tm.htm#548109

---

Latest editorial of value:

"Routine and systematic torture is at the heart of America's war on terror"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,,1970084,00.html

Is Padilla really that dangerous? Far from it: his warders describe him as so docile and inactive that he could be mistaken for "a piece of furniture". The purpose of these measures appeared to be to sustain the regime under which he had lived for more than three years: total sensory deprivation. He had been kept in a blacked-out cell, unable to see or hear anything beyond it. Most importantly, he had had no human contact, except for being bounced off the walls from time to time by his interrogators. As a result, he appears to have lost his mind. I don't mean this metaphorically. I mean that his mind is no longer there.

My comment:
I suspect the insane rarely bring suit against the state. This case is a loser for the feds, it's time to "destroy" the evidence - the victim himself.

---

More generally, here is Amnesty International's page on the U.S.:

"United States of America"
http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/usa-summary-eng

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The political position of the U.S. grows more shameful and barbarous with each passing year. I am decreasingly proud to be an American when I consider the literal horrors committed in my name every day. When will it end?

< Message edited by Chaingang -- 12/18/2006 2:08:11 AM >

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RE: Padilla Update - 12/18/2006 9:27:14 AM

pahunkboy

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IMO- he is guilty. on the other hand charge him- as it sets a bad precedent. look at his eyes..... i mean really look into his eyes......

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RE: Padilla Update - 12/18/2006 9:30:49 AM

farglebargle

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Imagine you're picked up one day jogging, without your wallet, and they call you undocumented.

Exactly HOW would you get a hearing to determine your real status?

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RE: Padilla Update - 12/18/2006 9:34:58 AM

pahunkboy

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my finger prints are laready in the system. big bro is well aware as to who i am.

it DOES set a bad precedent.

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RE: Padilla Update - 12/18/2006 9:48:03 AM

farglebargle

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quote:

my finger prints are laready in the system. big bro is well aware as to who i am.

And getting them to check your fingerprints, rather than just tossing you on the bus heading to Tijuana, is done exactly how?

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RE: Padilla Update - 12/18/2006 10:09:40 AM

pahunkboy

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this whole thread,one would have to consdier the prison industry in general. 2 million, 2x the number then in the 80s. it leads to a prisoner rights discussion which is a debate no one can ever really resolve.

when you enter the criminal justice system you are finger printed and photographed. i like to browse thru the mug shots of celebrities.

the powers that be here- often have already decided what they want to do with the person. the whole rights thinng is a formality.

being deported would be better then most prisons in the US. we have a few country club prisons for notorios/affluent guys.

this guy can always be credited with time served.

why would the govt find a totally innocent person and declare him an enemy combatant. they surely have something on the man.

luckily here in the USA, a resident can prettty much tell if they are a candidate for the police kicking in the door at 4 am.

let me say this. the system is always right. smile be courteous, dont make waves, and you will be fine.

a true enemy combatant - well- we never formally declared war. so it is an oximoron.

still, im sure teh feds have something on the guy.

we havent slid into soviet style anarcky ......[yet]

[being at large in tj would be better then prison]

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RE: Padilla Update - 12/18/2006 10:17:09 AM

farglebargle

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quote:

when you enter the criminal justice system you are finger printed and photographed.

Do undocumented aliens enter the criminal justice system?

I know they have lost the right to a Writ of Habeas Corpus, so it's pretty clear that there isn't ONE cut and dried process.

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RE: Padilla Update - 12/18/2006 11:04:45 AM

pahunkboy

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Padilla is not undocumented. he is classified enemy combatant.

why this one man? there are 2 million in the prisons. 2 million with their own stories of how they ended up there. many with a 2nd tier public defender.

if you care so much about this guy, go on a hunger strike..... ???

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RE: Padilla Update - 12/18/2006 12:31:47 PM

farglebargle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Padilla is not undocumented. he is classified enemy combatant.

why this one man? there are 2 million in the prisons. 2 million with their own stories of how they ended up there. many with a 2nd tier public defender.

if you care so much about this guy, go on a hunger strike..... ???

When one of us is in chains, none of us is free.

That's why Due Process and Equal Protection used to be so important.

Remember, the rich get richer and the poor get babies. It's not Black/White Legal/Illegal Gay/Straight or any of that other bullshit... It's about US vs. The Man.

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RE: Padilla Update - 12/18/2006 1:21:17 PM

pahunkboy

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all of this on on the Bush legacy. time will tell how bad or good bush was. most see him as bad. a stopped clock can be right 2x a day.

i dont view the padilla case as an immediate threat. he is to take a number and stand in line. hopefully in 08, some sanity is restored to the govt.

if this is your top concern, fine. but i can think of so many other items that are more of a threat than this.

as i say, prisoner rights is a tricky subject.

let take free speach zones. might that be more important??

how about the protestors in DC that were exposed to some sort of germ ?

it is a package deal. from day 1, I did not want bush in office.

since it is all connected to oil. how is this. give up your use of energy. live like the amish for 6 months. then tell me about it. your consumption of energy makes blood on your hands just as mine.

use a library to get online.

if you live the western way of life- you are in the mess.

we just had an elction. we thru out most of the bushites.

if one man can stand up on a line of tanks as in Tienneman square- what can you or I do as individuals?

even tho the war on terror has run amok, I still beleive in the US way of life.

Im sorry to thos who get caught in the chaos- the cross fire. but did I turn offf my electric? no.

what can one man or woman do? the state is right. the peon is wrong. period.

our efforts would be better spent getting us all off of our oil monkey. going solar, wind.

choose your battl;es carefully. most people havem bills to pay and could care less over padilla.

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RE: Padilla Update - 12/18/2006 5:38:12 PM

Chaingang

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
still, im sure teh feds have something on the guy.

Yup, perfect for the jury pool. And exactly what is wrong with the justice system.

You can't convict someone because you think the guy's eyes look spacey, or he twitches in his seat, or because he looks odd to you, or because the feds must have something on him otherwise he wouldn't be on trial. The standard is "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" and not one of "presumed guilty." Actual evidence is required to prove the former and a good citizen would protect his indicted fellow citizen from a mere presumption of guilt.

You are all over the map on this one, pahunkboy.

The justice system is broken not because it couldn't work but because the average citizen no longer applies the actual agreed upon standard of guilt. The average juror just wants to go home after the free lunch but also before the weekend break.

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RE: Padilla Update - 12/18/2006 5:56:01 PM

Chaingang

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
i dont view the padilla case as an immediate threat. he is to take a number and stand in line. hopefully in 08, some sanity is restored to the govt.

Dead wrong. That's not how it works.

What they do to the least of us they can then apply to us all because the precedent has already been established. The violation of rights achieved today are very rarely given back freely, they must usually be fought for tooth and nail every step of the way by those of us that have been paying attention and support groups like the ACLU (among many others).

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BTW, the energy issue will be solved within the next five-ten years. The question is whether it will be allowed to be solved by the wealthy elite that actually run the show. Power and continued wealth - and not your energy independence - are always the deciding factors.

If you really want to stop corporate/big oil control of the legislature you have to get behind campaign finance reform and cut the purse strings (or maybe just force it offshore?).

< Message edited by Chaingang -- 12/18/2006 5:57:59 PM >

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