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What do you think the TOUGH STUFF is? - 12/18/2006 12:01:42 PM   
Emperor1956


Posts: 2370
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline 		In another thread (that disintegrated into a lot of catcalling -- I'd hope the same doesn't happen here) LaTigress posted the following:

quote:

  Not to bunch anyone's boxers here but something I hear from many (straight) women is the shortage of men willing and able to step up to the plate and be the dominant one in the house. Too many wanting the good stuff and not willing to work at doing the tough stuff.

I honestly am not man bashing, I have many friends that are male.  I just wonder if with the change in women's education, their awareness of the world in general and just their over all confidence in their own abilities and power if the barre of their expectations of a dominant partner has been raised and men are struggling with that. Sort of along the lines of the theory of, educating the citizens of a country and they begin demanding more of their political leaders, kinda thought.



Which got me thinking.  The first part that struck me was "the shortage of men willing and able to step up to the plate and be the dominant one in the house. Too many wanting the good stuff and not willing to work at doing the tough stuff. "

What is the tough stuff?  At the risk of generalizations and quoting the Wrong Guy:  What do women want?  Specifically, in a (male) partner.

E.


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RE: What do you think the TOUGH STUFF is? - 12/18/2006 12:15:02 PM   
drawntothedark


Posts: 572
Joined: 10/19/2006
From: Arkansas
Status: offline 		Well, I can only answer for myself.

First I want to start by saying, I'm not knocking anyone elses beliefs.

A man to me should be responsible. He cares enough that your driving on bald tires. He cares enough to have them fixed. There is money in the account because he holds himself and you responsible for the household good and does save money.

He respects the boundries that two people have. I'm not poly, so Poly would not count here. He is not comparing you to younger, prettier, etc. etc. (even subtly) he has chosen you and in his eyes he has chosen well. He does not oogle other woman.

Other people respect him as honest and true to his word. He is nice to his mother. If he tells you something you can bank on it.

He enforces the laws of the home. He does not wait around for you to. (Ex. Little Tommy hit Little Jane on the head with a hammer, instead of turning the T.V up so not hear them scream, he comes to your side to help handle the offender and comfort the wounded)

He holds himself up to the same expectations he puts on others.

He grew up along time ago, and so doing learned that yelling and temper tantrums are things the kids do and not a grown ass man.




(in reply to Emperor1956)
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RE: What do you think the TOUGH STUFF is? - 12/18/2006 12:33:54 PM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline 		This topic is to tough for me at the moment, going to wait and see how it pans out. I think I need to know what the good stuff is before I could work out what the tough stuff is.

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RE: What do you think the TOUGH STUFF is? - 12/18/2006 3:12:08 PM   
LTRsubNW


Posts: 1604
Joined: 5/6/2006
Status: offline
quote:

What is the tough stuff? 


Daily trying to figure out my ex.

< Message edited by LTRsubNW -- 12/18/2006 3:16:57 PM >

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RE: What do you think the TOUGH STUFF is? - 12/18/2006 3:22:58 PM   
KeirasSecret


Posts: 415
Joined: 8/17/2006
From: central NH
Status: offline 		Hmmm….all I want for Christmas is a man?

Let’s see, because of the men I’ve previously had in my life, my expectations are fairly low.


He would put the needs of the family he has made for himself first, before others or play time for him. ie: paying bills, home repairs, ext.
Being sober would be the norm instead of the exception.
He would spend time with the kids even if that meant he was doing something they wanted to do and not necessarily something he wanted to.
If I am working he would help out with household chores. If I am not he would remember that I need to get out of the house too. Even if that meant he was staying home with the kids while I’m out.
He would be considerate enough of me, to do things on occasion that I like to do regardless of whether or not he likes to. ie: going out dancing, and this does not mean finding anyone, but me, to dance with.
He would be more creative when approaching me for sex then, “Hey! Wanna go do it?
Last but certainly not least, sex would consist of more then five minutes of in and out then, “You can finish that on your own right? Star Trek is on. He should at the very least stick around until I am done also, preferable helping.



    I think that about covers it, but I reserve the right to add if needed.

    Thank you in advance Santa,

    < Message edited by KeirasSecret -- 12/18/2006 4:16:57 PM >

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    RE: What do you think the TOUGH STUFF is? - 12/18/2006 3:27:29 PM   
    Mercnbeth


    Posts: 11766
    Status: offline
    quote:

    The first part that struck me was "the shortage of men willing and able to step up to the plate and be the dominant one in the house. Too many wanting the good stuff and not willing to work at doing the tough stuff. "

    What is the tough stuff? 

    Accepting responsibility and being responsible, having and maintaining integrity in the face of an easier option, giving and demanding respect; all not "tough" but missing in a world were considering the feelings and perspective of others supersedes truth or even law. Pragmatic application of consequence for actions both good and bad seems to also be in short supply. The goal is not to be firm but to compromise to avoid conflict. Maintain the quiet at all cost until it does become "tough". Than its a self fulfilling prophecy, "tough" to stay - its easy to leave.

    The fact that it may be more prevalent in this lifestyle is a function of the lifestyle itself. The blossoming of access to BDSM, D/s, and all it encompasses didn't create a blossoming of dominant men anymore than it created more submissive woman. This is just another venue to try to find somebody, anybody, to 'hook up'. For men, superficial as they are, they view this as an opportunity. Submissive woman! "Wow - get on your knees bitch!" Making it past lifestyle adolescence they may hold off on that thought until the second date, but there is no natural dominant nature. The act can last for a time. However acting is 'work', it gets tiring, it gets old, it gets tough. So you see the; "Why isn't my Dom/Master like he was when we met?" or "How do I manipulate my Dom/Master to discipline me like he used to?" Why? How? The answer is the same - he or she is no longer acting, he/she no longer wants to.

    There is an aversion toward using the words "true" or "real" to as an adjective in front of the labels Dom/Master/sub/slave. Most times the adamant position of being true or real is inversely proportion to their real and true nature. However when contemplating a relationship is should be a requirement that you are representing and seeing a "true", "real" person. All it takes is time to make sure the you've seen the 'act' and are now seeing the person.

    There is no "shortage of men", or woman for that matter, that would meet the standard, but their availability is limited. They are confident with themselves. They usually have very specific and detailed requirements of who they consider for a relationship. They rarely compromise, and are usually intolerant of behavior contrary to representation. If you seek a dominant personality, you'll know you've found one when they don't put up with 'testing' or 'bratty-ness'. They'll pass the 'test' and most likely pass on you. Sure they'll listen to you but maybe it will be more than you want them to. They'll hold you to what you say, but more importantly they'll only trust it if it is also what you do. 

    Do women want that? Are they willing to invest the time to wait for it? I don't think it is a question of not knowing what they want. Rather, I believe, most settle. It results in getting something they know they don't want but tides them over, or serves a current purpose, or achieves a short term monetary or social goal. They buy the act, and most of the time know its an act, because men are just not that good at acting.

    The attitude is really not gender specific. It's just that woman are more likely to whine about it. 

    (in reply to Emperor1956)
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    RE: What do you think the TOUGH STUFF is? - 12/18/2006 3:48:52 PM   
    LaTigresse


    Posts: 26123
    Joined: 1/15/2006
    Status: offline     		Merc, so very well put. Thank you for writing that.

    To me, it was a collection of qualities that I found elusive. For a long time I thought it was my problem, that my expectations were just too high. Then I began to realize that regardless of knowing someone with those qualities I wanted to BE someone with those qualities.

    It reminds me of an old saying that goes something like this "you can talk the talk but can you walk the walk?". I see alot of self proclaimed dominants that are great at talking the talk but their actions speak alot more loudly....they are staggering around like drunken fools.

    I know I stumble, alot. I think we all do on our journey. In this particular instance I think the intent and constant striving to get there is equally admirable as long as the same mistakes are not made and lame excuses used.

    And yes, like previously mentioned, I see alot of honestly weak individuals that like to think they are dominant because of their perceptions. That whole "I don't want to have to answer to anyone for my shit so I want to run around beating my chest (and sub/slave) and bellow and anyone that dares challenge me!" mentality. To me, that is just a cop out.


    _____________________________

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    Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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    RE: What do you think the TOUGH STUFF is? - 12/19/2006 11:49:58 PM   
    Vendaval


    Posts: 10297
    Joined: 1/15/2005
    Status: offline     		Being a responsible and well behaved adult.
    Being accountable for behavior, both action and inaction.
    Understanding that his behavior impacts his partner(s) and
    any dependents.  Setting a good example.  Being able to
    admit to mistakes, learn from them, and improve future
    actions.   Controlling his temper and impulsiveness.
    Being sober, reliable, a good listener and modest.


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

    What is the tough stuff?  At the risk of generalizations and quoting the Wrong Guy:  What do women want?  Specifically, in a (male) partner.

    E.



    _____________________________

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    http://KinkMeet.co.uk

    (in reply to Emperor1956)
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    RE: What do you think the TOUGH STUFF is? - 12/20/2006 12:11:01 AM   
    meatcleaver


    Posts: 9030
    Joined: 3/13/2006
    Status: offline     		I'm afraid I've had one too many relationships with women to even want to be a member of the same household as one, there is just no pleasing them. You take responsibility you're a fascist, you let them make decisions you're weak. Of course this has nothing to do with dominance or not and everything to do with the politics of a relationship going wrong. However, I wouldn't give house space to another woman until I've figured out why women can't give a straight answer to a straight question. Women just don't speak the same language as men so why live with someone when you both speak different languages?

    Excuse me, I've got a stray dog to feed.

    < Message edited by meatcleaver -- 12/20/2006 12:12:46 AM >

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    RE: What do you think the TOUGH STUFF is? - 12/20/2006 1:31:54 AM   
    FelinePersuasion


    Posts: 4792
    Joined: 11/20/2004
    Status: offline     		meat I am easy to please. Spend every week with me once per week, call me a few times and cuddle me lol.

    (in reply to meatcleaver)
    Profile   Post #: 10
    RE: What do you think the TOUGH STUFF is? - 12/20/2006 1:47:44 AM   
    Quivver


    Posts: 1953
    Joined: 11/27/2004
    Status: offline     		I sum up what I want in my signature line. 

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    RE: What do you think the TOUGH STUFF is? - 12/20/2006 1:49:42 AM   
    Voltare


    Posts: 841
    Joined: 1/1/2004
    From: Santiago, Chile
    Status: offline     		I tend to avoid the threads in the Gorean forum on 'naturalism' - that men should be x and women should be y because they can be volitile.  Why the need for across the board generalizations about gender and roles? 

    drawntothedark's makes a great example of the tires on the car.  Here's the grand sum of what the average man knows about tires:  Take it to the shop, have them change it. 

    For those who want to know more about 'how much' and 'balancing', here's the necessary steps:

    Google:  'simple tire guide'

    Fourth link down: 'Goodyear Tires | Tire Buying Made Easy | Tire Safety' leads to a page with this link:

    http://www.goodyeartires.com/pdf/buying_guide.pdf

    Takes less time to read the manual than the car trip to the shop.  For those who want a more complete explaination, shockingly, Wall-Mart has a good explaination here:

    http://www.walmart.com/catalog/catalog.gsp?cat=538435

    I don't see any activity here that should be uniquely male, nor female, and I wouldn't think twice about sending gretchen out to get the tires changed.  The issue of ensuring there's enough money to purchase said new tires would seem to fall on the shoulders of both their shoulders. At the beginning of the month, gretchen and I sit down with our paychecks (in Chile, people are paid once a month, not twice) and decide what we have to do with it.  We set aside rent, food, households needs, bills, etc, and then decide what to do with what's left.  Obviously it's what works for us.

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    RE: What do you think the TOUGH STUFF is? - 12/20/2006 2:44:55 AM   
    slavejali


    Posts: 2918
    Status: offline     		 
    quote:

    Women just don't speak the same language as men so why live with someone when you both speak different languages?


    Have you ever read the book "Men are from Mars, Women are from Veunus"?


    _____________________________

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    Different Strokes for Different Folks

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    RE: What do you think the TOUGH STUFF is? - 12/20/2006 5:06:18 AM   
    NeedToUseYou


    Posts: 2297
    Joined: 12/24/2005
    From: None of your business
    Status: offline     		It's just as likely these women that are complaining are "bad" women. In all honesty, people rarely see fault in themselves, and if they do it generally takes a very long time to admit they are the problem. It's likely some of these men that dated these women were "bad" but just as likely some of these women saying how bad the man was really have their own problem causing behaviours.

    I don't take such claims by either sex seriously anymore.



    (in reply to Emperor1956)
    Profile   Post #: 14
    RE: What do you think the TOUGH STUFF is? - 12/20/2006 5:20:56 AM   
    Serenityy


    Posts: 97
    Status: offline     		What do women want, specifically, in a partner?
     
    If I was to remove the aspect of TPE from the relationship, I would say, that for me, I want a man who is honorable, loyal, responsible, respectful to both myself and others, able to show emotion and not afraid to do so, strong not only physically; but also mentally, emotionally, and intellectually, secure and self-confident, not afraid to be challenged by a woman, willing to stand firm on his beliefs no matter what, has the ability to make a point without having to 'hammer' it home, knows what compromise is and is willing to use it when necessary, has a sense of humor and the ability to laugh at himself in certain situations; and last but not least, is comfortable in total and complete silence with his partner.
     



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    RE: What do you think the TOUGH STUFF is? - 12/20/2006 6:32:02 AM   
    meatcleaver


    Posts: 9030
    Joined: 3/13/2006
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Serenityy

    What do women want, specifically, in a partner?
     
    If I was to remove the aspect of TPE from the relationship, I would say, that for me, I want a man who is honorable, loyal, responsible, respectful to both myself and others, able to show emotion and not afraid to do so, strong not only physically; but also mentally, emotionally, and intellectually, secure and self-confident, not afraid to be challenged by a woman, willing to stand firm on his beliefs no matter what, has the ability to make a point without having to 'hammer' it home, knows what compromise is and is willing to use it when necessary, has a sense of humor and the ability to laugh at himself in certain situations; and last but not least, is comfortable in total and complete silence with his partner.
     


    You mean you want a cardboard cut-out of superman?

    < Message edited by meatcleaver -- 12/20/2006 6:34:13 AM >

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    RE: What do you think the TOUGH STUFF is? - 12/20/2006 7:24:18 AM   
    Serenityy


    Posts: 97
    Status: offline
    quote:

    You mean you want a cardboard cut-out of superman?

    Goodness, No. Superman would be too perfect

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    Profile   Post #: 17
    RE: What do you think the TOUGH STUFF is? - 12/20/2006 8:47:04 AM   
    losttreasure


    Posts: 875
    Joined: 12/17/2005
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Serenityy

    What do women want, specifically, in a partner?
     
    If I was to remove the aspect of TPE from the relationship, I would say, that for me, I want a man who is honorable, loyal, responsible, respectful to both myself and others, able to show emotion and not afraid to do so, strong not only physically; but also mentally, emotionally, and intellectually, secure and self-confident, not afraid to be challenged by a woman, willing to stand firm on his beliefs no matter what, has the ability to make a point without having to 'hammer' it home, knows what compromise is and is willing to use it when necessary, has a sense of humor and the ability to laugh at himself in certain situations; and last but not least, is comfortable in total and complete silence with his partner.
     


    Excellent, Serenityy.   

    What I would add is that he is human... not always perfect and willing to admit when he's wrong, and flexible enough to allow me the same.  The willingness to work hard toward his goals, and the desire to grow and learn are important, too.  Above it all, he has a positive outlook... he knows and likes who he is and knows what he wants... he enjoys living today and looks forward to tomorrow... and he doesn't let the "tough stuff" keep him down or change who he is.

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

    You mean you want a cardboard cut-out of superman?


    I don't think that's such a tall order.  If it is, then I've been extremely lucky. 

    (in reply to meatcleaver)
    Profile   Post #: 18
    RE: What do you think the TOUGH STUFF is? - 12/20/2006 8:54:32 AM   
    drawntothedark


    Posts: 572
    Joined: 10/19/2006
    From: Arkansas
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Voltare

    I tend to avoid the threads in the Gorean forum on 'naturalism' - that men should be x and women should be y because they can be volitile.  Why the need for across the board generalizations about gender and roles? 

    drawntothedark's makes a great example of the tires on the car.  Here's the grand sum of what the average man knows about tires:  Take it to the shop, have them change it. 

    For those who want to know more about 'how much' and 'balancing', here's the necessary steps:

    Google:  'simple tire guide'

    Fourth link down: 'Goodyear Tires | Tire Buying Made Easy | Tire Safety' leads to a page with this link:

    http://www.goodyeartires.com/pdf/buying_guide.pdf

    Takes less time to read the manual than the car trip to the shop.  For those who want a more complete explaination, shockingly, Wall-Mart has a good explaination here:

    http://www.walmart.com/catalog/catalog.gsp?cat=538435

    I don't see any activity here that should be uniquely male, nor female, and I wouldn't think twice about sending gretchen out to get the tires changed.  The issue of ensuring there's enough money to purchase said new tires would seem to fall on the shoulders of both their shoulders. At the beginning of the month, gretchen and I sit down with our paychecks (in Chile, people are paid once a month, not twice) and decide what we have to do with it.  We set aside rent, food, households needs, bills, etc, and then decide what to do with what's left.  Obviously it's what works for us.

     
    Yes, but you sit down togther. You do in a way over see the way the money is spent. In my experience with certain (not all) vanilla men........that does not happen. What happens is "Honey I forgot to write down check number 341. I think we are over drawn." or " New tires, you don't need new tires, just make sure you drive real slow around corners"
     
    I do not think it's anyone responsiblty solely. If I need tires or brakes or the kids have to go to the doctor than by all means who ever can attend to the problem the quickest is the best person for the job. But I would feel that my Dominate should be the voice of reason. "Baby, you cannot drive the car with tires like that, go get them fixed."
     
    I look for good examples between the sexes in my Grand parents marriage. He was always the final word. She would do as much as she could on her own but when she coudl not solve a problem she came to him for the solution or at least a suggestion. He also loved her dearly and would check her car everyonce and awhile to make sure all was fine.
     
    Now, I do not think that what works for one family will work for them all. You have to take the good with the bad, and no one is perfect.
     
    All I am saying is that (FOR ME) I have always been in the submissive state of mind, however, it's hard to be that way when your trying to submit to a immuture man child.
     
    Why am I writing in your font?

    (in reply to Voltare)
    Profile   Post #: 19
    RE: What do you think the TOUGH STUFF is? - 12/20/2006 8:58:45 AM   
    gypsygrl


    Posts: 1471
    Joined: 10/8/2005
    From: new york state
    Status: offline     		 What do women want?  What do I want? I dunno.

    I don't really expect or need a lot from a guy and try to be more or less self-sufficient. 

    Mostly, I like having someone around to talk to who seems interested in what I have to say and can comprehend some of my more twisted trains of thought/urges or at least tolerate them.  I like it when they know their boundaries and can maintain them without letting me run roughshod over them.  If they can do this gracefully and without a lot of yelling, all the better.

    I like it when they can handle themselves so I don't have to worry about babysitting them.

    But, I suppose if someone were holding a gun to my head, and told me I had to sum it all up in one word, that word would be "clarity".

    (in reply to Emperor1956)
    Profile   Post #: 20
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