Asphixiation (Full Version)

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rocker -> Asphixiation (2/19/2005 10:55:31 PM)

can A/anyone tell me anything about asphixiation?

it has come up resently and i have no experience with it and am ignorant of the risks associated with it other than the clearly apparent suffication risk.

i don't want to tell Her no but i don't want to tell Her yes either (well i do want to tell Her yes but my gut won't let me).

i geuss i'm looking for a safe way to go into this with Her if there is a safe way

any advice appreciated...
Thank You
rocker



MadameDahlia -> RE: Asphixiation (2/19/2005 11:09:58 PM)

I go with gut instinct in most things. If your gut is telling you that you don't feel comfortable with this... then she should respect you enough to respect your limits. Not wanting to/not being able to do this doesn't make you a bad sub... it makes you human.



proudsub -> RE: Asphixiation (2/19/2005 11:22:17 PM)

These threads might help you:

breath control

the thrill of breath paly

choking play, breath play, asphyxiation

breath play



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Asphixiation (2/19/2005 11:52:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rocker

can A/anyone tell me anything about asphixiation?

it has come up resently and i have no experience with it and am ignorant of the risks associated with it other than the clearly apparent suffication risk.

I'm not a doctor, first and foremost and I have no official medical training.

This is pretty much the edge of heavy risk play- because there is absolutely no physical sign that something is going wrong until things are already very wrong.

We prefer to do it by closing over the mouth and nose holes, either with a hand or while wearing a hood and closing off the holes. This is easy and immediate to release and allow air back into the body and causes no carotid artery cut-off or plaque closing issues or windpipe pressure which could cause bad damage there (which doing things like choking or hanging will do).

There's also dunking into water, but that's harder to keep a close eye on things. Sone people also use plastic bags over their heads, I consider that too risky due to the lack of immediate reversal.

As always, start out very slow and work up. Brain damage due to lack of oxygen is cumulative, so I would say it's best not to do a lot of it over one time. Have water nearby in case of headaches.

It's a serious thing, mistakes don't mean safewords and going home with an extra mark or two here.



NATI -> RE: Asphixiation (2/19/2005 11:59:02 PM)

ShadeDiva has some great -and heart wrenching- insights on breathplay in those threads that proud pulled. Well worth reading - and heeding. I am well in the 'mindfuck' camp. I steer clear of carotid artery and throat choke holds. The throat is too fragile for it.

Jay Wiseman wrote an article (I believe it's in SM101) about the dangers of breath play in which he discusses why breathplay is so dangerous. The short version of his commentary is that breathplay can interfere with the electrical impulses to the heart and there is NO WAY to tell if/when the heart is going to do this. In his book, he calls this the PVC on T phenomenon, and it can cause ventricular fibrillation.

Breath Control has A LOT of fans. And if someone can ADEQUATELY describe a safe way to address that unpredictable kicker to the ticker, I might reconsider. Haven't seen anything that satisfies me, however.



SissySlut4Goddes -> RE: Asphixiation (2/20/2005 12:13:10 AM)

i love breath play, i have done it with myself for many years. but it is very risky, and dangerous.. i would suggest that if it isn't something you have done or want to do, that you don't. most times your gut is right, not always but most times. there is so many things that can go wrong when someone else is controlling your air flow, where as at least you have some control over it if you are the one doing it. i have a Domme who wants to do it with me, but i agreed because i feel ok with it, but i understand that doing so could cause me my life if not careful. don't do it just because she wants too.. life is to valuable to throw away for anyone or anything..



rocker -> RE: Asphixiation (2/20/2005 12:59:18 AM)

Thank You for the fast replys. and especially for the links proud sub. i do love to please but i don't want to die to please, or worse live brain damaged. i think i'd rather be dead than have to live on unable to fend for myself.

She has medical experience and She is very good to me, always streatching my limits for sure, but stopping when i yell ten!

i think i need to sit down with Her and discuss my feelings and fears and also learn Hers. i really hate to say no, especially to Her, but this is a serious matter and i just don't know if i can or rather if i want to risk my life.

its not like i would get anything from it other than knowing i was pleasing Her. which is motive enough, but enough for my life???? now that is the question?

geuss only my own soul searching can answer me this one, that and open honest communication with Her. make sure She knows CPR, etc... it is the brain damage thing that scares me the most.




MadameDahlia -> RE: Asphixiation (2/20/2005 2:16:04 AM)

Please make sure she is fully aware of the risks. Make sure that you and she sit down together and read everything you can find in medical dictionaries and other sources you consider reliable.

The site below states: "The time interval of compression to loss of consciousness is approx. 10 secs if both carotid arteries are compressed and a minute if only the jugulars are compressed. The time interval from loss of consciousness to death is said to be in the region of minutes."

http://www.forensicmed.co.uk/asphyxia.htm

Every body is different. Everyone's health is different. This says a person has a few minutes between loss of consciousness and death. You may have one. You may have ten. And chances are you'd only know until you tried this. Please be careful.



Goodmix -> RE: Asphixiation (2/20/2005 5:53:53 AM)

EmeraldSlave2,
i didn't realize you were on here.
My first BESS meeting was on Breathe play, you obviously rememeber more that i did from that class.
i do remember her (the presentor) saying that a stop of blood flow will also cause someone to pass out, (that was her preferance) and in lue of a safeword, the subject should be given somthing in their hands that can be dropped in case something is wrong, and will automaticaly fall when they have passed out.

(btw, i meant to congratulate J on the med school acceptances)

Cheryl



MadameBette -> RE: Asphixiation (2/20/2005 6:07:59 AM)

You are wise to listen to your gut.
Here's a message from "Doc Charlie" to a group I belonged to in AL, and a link to Jay Wiseman's article on Breath Play.
~ Bette

Obstruction of the airway in any form can be dangerous.

There are 2 components of breathing; oxygenation and respiration.
The former involves getting oxygen into the bloodstream, the later
involves release of carbon dioxide.
The lungs are one of the main buffer systems of the body, that is, the
formation and release of CO2 reduces H+ (acid) in the blood and
can produce a CO2 narcosis which can be confused with subspace.

The pH range safe for the body is a very narrow one.
When respiration is stopped, by whatever means, there is an increase
in H+ which then enters the cells with the concomitant release of
K+ (potassium).
K+ is what is used to stop people’s hearts in lethal injection.

For people with heart problems either known (like me) or unknown
even small increases in K+ can trigger arrhythmia’s including
ventricular fibrillation.
As we do not have a defibrillator at our disposal this is a potentially
lethal situation.
While it would probably be obvious if someone was
suffering from oxygen deprivation (allowing for release of the
obstruction) the same is not true for acidosis and hyperkalemia.

Charlie

This is Jay's article:
www.io.com/~ambrosio/health/breath.html




Cyis75 -> RE: Asphixiation (2/22/2005 3:39:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NATI
Jay Wiseman wrote an article (I believe it's in SM101) about the dangers of breath play in which he discusses why breathplay is so dangerous. The short version of his commentary is that breathplay can interfere with the electrical impulses to the heart and there is NO WAY to tell if/when the heart is going to do this. In his book, he calls this the PVC on T phenomenon, and it can cause ventricular fibrillation.


If you've spent any time listening to Jay rant about breathplay and Commotio Cortis taking it all as gospel you may not do a lot of "intense" "edge play" again. I've been on forums where the debate has gotten really heated as Jay is very adament on his opinions regarding the subject although he doesn't have a medical degree himself. Our local community even had someone originally willing to have a class on breath play that ended with the presenter finally backing out because they were getting tired of the whiplash reaction coming from Jay. So any good safety advice wasn't even able to be presented, or negative unless you count the uproar created over the topic.

I personally am a believer in education and giving people the information to make their own risk assessment, as ultimately it is your ass on the line. That said I fully agree with everyone else that breath play in any form is a dangerous edge play that should be looked at very seriously before getting involved with it. My lovely kitty and I have included bits of breath play within our scenes from time to time but it is extremely limited and only enough to get the desired effect in the scene. We do so knowing the risks involved and adapt the play with that knowledge. There is also a lot of trust that's been built to get to that point where she trusts me to do this and each being able to read the other during the scene to know when it's gone to the point desired and not too far.

I definately don't recommend it for someone to just "jump into", and definately not to disregard the gut reaction. Instincts like your gut are too important to pass off trivially and disregard. What we do is risky and I don't recommend anyone doing anything that they don't understand the safety measures to take or the risks involved. To do otherwise would be to do so impaired much as if you were intoxicated.



LadySonelle -> RE: Asphixiation (2/22/2005 10:44:29 PM)

I do not do breath play. It is dangerous. Period.

That said, I was taught, years ago, by Master Donnie Rice of San francisco, to use a form of breath play that is the least harmful.

The Top sits in a confortable chair and has the bottom kneeling facing hir.

The command: "You will not breathe until I tell you to!"

That's it! The top can sit there, watch, read the funnies, whatever. The sub will hold hir breath until finally blacking out... at which time, the body, having *no* restraints upon it, the sutonomous nervous system will kick in and the sub will breathe! The time between blacking out and beginning to breathe is so swift that there is little room for damage.

I still don't feel comfortable with it, so I don't use it. But that is the way Donnie taught Me.

Lady Sonelle



siamsa24 -> RE: Asphixiation (2/23/2005 3:33:56 AM)

I have always thought that it was rather risky, but my instructer recently discussed choking in my karate class (we choke during ground fighting).
He sat us all down and informed us that we were not permitted to choke with the hands any more (with hands wrapped around the throat) because there is both a bone and an artery in the neck that can easily be broken. Either of these things being broken will cause death (there is nothing you can do about it). If this can happen in a highly controlled environment with several experienced instructers ready to stop the fight at any time and the person with the ability to tap out and with both people in the fight having many years of experience then I'm sure that it can happen in less controlled circumstances as well.
This is just something else to look in to.



ILovePain13 -> RE: Asphixiation (4/22/2005 9:59:31 AM)

I have practiced asphyxia alone and with others for a while. I have only passed out a few times and that was while masturbating or fucking while being choked by a hand, showerhose, belt tie, etc... I've never had a problem with going over board. I usually just tell a guy to choke me and when I want him to stop or lighten up I just tap his shoulder twice. One thing I've noticed is that a lot of guys will press their wrist into my collarbone which is really distracting pain. I've gotten my worst bruises fom that. Argh. Gotta keep the wrist straight. If your agaist something it's more of a matter of pressing the throat against it surface than squeezing which hurts instead of cutting off air. I've found my limits best by experimenting on my own by either fashioning something that I have to press against or pull on to cut off air. When I go limp, or pass out the tension stops and the air can go through. Ever notice that you look really high after passing out from asphyxia? It crqacks me up, red eyes, relaxed face, etc... I know its dangerous but if I'm turned on enough, someone slamming me against a wall by my neck can make me cum instantaneously with no other stimulation. Thats reason enough for me to keep going.



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