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Responsibility & Obedience - 12/21/2006 10:23:03 PM   
slavemaia


Posts: 395
Joined: 8/26/2006
Status: offline 		Recently Master and i were discussing some things that some have found create a good M/s dynamic. He came across an interesting concept that i'm curious to get different opinions about. The concept is this: Is or should the degree and depth of obedience on the slave's/sub's part be equal to the degree and depth of responsibility for the slave/sub on the Master's/Dom's part? If so, why? If not, why?

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She reaches up, not for the apple, but for what causes it to be there.
slave to love - - Chairman's maia
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RE: Responsibility & Obedience - 12/21/2006 11:23:50 PM   
darksdesire


Posts: 326
Joined: 10/18/2006
Status: offline 		What an excellent and complex question.   There are so many angles in which to look at this.  On the one hand, I take my obedience to my Master very seriously, and work very hard to not be a "conditional" slave.  He also accepted responsibility for me and I think works hard at not being a "conditional" Master.

That said, in my own relationship, I see that it seems to operate in terms of a cyclical energy...my obedience and devotion inspires and strengthens his responsibility and care of me.  And his responsibility and care inspires my obedience and devotion.  Often times that energy seems to flow between us on its own initiative, sort of effortless and easy and we are being the best of who we are together.

However, there are times when the energy suddenly gets blocked...times when perhaps I perceive something on his part that creates an insecurity within me.  At those times, my submission  goes underground, and I go into self protection mode...he senses it and pulls back in his dominance.  It doesn't happen often, but when it does, the blocking of energy between us is palpable and painful for both of us.  During those times I have arguments in my head about doing something, anything to start the positive cycle going again...and I see this as my duty, to submit even when I am insecure. 

I chose to bind myself to this particular Master, and based that choice on knowledge of who he is as a person and a Master.   I made the commitment  to obey and serve unconditionally, and ideally, I ought to do so, no matter what.  That's an ideal though, and one that I strive for, but still fall short at times, although less and less so as time goes on.. 

(in reply to slavemaia)
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RE: Responsibility & Obedience - 12/21/2006 11:32:11 PM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		In my world, this has to be true, even if we're just talking about the energy exchange between the two. If one takes more than the other gives, eventually, one will be so drained, they cannot recover. Same holds true of emotion and power.

Master Fire


_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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RE: Responsibility & Obedience - 12/21/2006 11:54:23 PM   
MagiksSlave


Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline 		Well yeah... its a give and take sort of thing if you take more then you give then the person giveing will soon be depleated. you have to replace what you take just like a bank account becuase if you dont then well there will be no money left and when you wish to perchase something you will be declined!!

and with that I am off to disney land!!!

Magik's slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.


-Rodney Atkins-



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RE: Responsibility & Obedience - 12/22/2006 4:50:02 AM   
Caitriona


Posts: 327
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

In my world, this has to be true, even if we're just talking about the energy exchange between the two. If one takes more than the other gives, eventually, one will be so drained, they cannot recover. Same holds true of emotion and power.

Master Fire



Very well said!  That's how I view my exchange with My Lord - said much more eloquently than I can at this early hour. 


_____________________________

Property of Shadowraven
Serving alongside ciarra

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RE: Responsibility & Obedience - 12/22/2006 5:13:01 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		I think that a slave should be obedient whenever and in whatever way the owner wishes to exercise authority.

If a slave wishes to have more things controlled then that needs to be openly discussed. If an owner does not wish to control more aspects of the slave's life but the slave needs them to, then I think the relationship will find itself on rocky ground.

The same is true in the reverse case. If an owner wishes to control more than the slave is willing or able to be obedient to, then they will be on rocky ground (unless the master really likes an ongoing struggle or feels that over time things will change).

Balance is what makes for good long-term relationships in my experience.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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RE: Responsibility & Obedience - 12/22/2006 6:26:20 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Technically speaking, none of us has "rights" over our partners.  A "right" is something inherent and we have no inherent "right" to control or serve anyone of our choosing.  What we have are "priviledges", bestowed upon us (consensually) by our partners.  And I believe that all priviledges come with responsibilities attached.
 
A good example is the priviledge of operating a motor vehicle, in which we are responsible for adhering to traffic laws or that priviledge will be revoked.  (Point of distinction... no one can "revoke" a right).
 
And I extend that to include my priviledges as a Dominant in a power exchange relationship.  The specific responsibilities I may have in any given relationship may differ, depending upon what we may mutually agree upon.
 
The same goes for her responsibilities associated with her priviledge of serving me.
 
Having said that, I also believe in a necessary "balance" between submission and Dominance.  One cannot require more of either than their partner is willing or able to give, without causing an irrepairable problem in the relationship.  In the example used in the OP, one cannot give more control than their Dominant is willing to accept responsibility for without causing... A.  The submissive to feel unfulfilled or, B.  The Dominant to feel topped from the bottom.

John

< Message edited by Rover -- 12/22/2006 6:31:41 AM >

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RE: Responsibility & Obedience - 12/22/2006 6:32:01 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Balance is what makes for good long-term relationships in my experience.


Yes, which means you know what is going on with the other person and gauge your expectations accordingly.



< Message edited by cloudboy -- 12/22/2006 6:39:16 AM >

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RE: Responsibility & Obedience - 12/22/2006 7:16:47 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavemaia
The concept is this: Is or should the degree and depth of obedience on the slave's/sub's part be equal to the degree and depth of responsibility for the slave/sub on the Master's/Dom's part? If so, why? If not, why?

No.  If you are totally obedient, you are not totally responsible.  Relationships require responsiblity to be held accountable on all sides at all times.  Specific responsibilities can vary and change over time depending on the context and needs that life sends us, though we are always responsible for remaining true to ourselves and our commitments.

Obedience is a constant, responsibility is a constant, but I don't think they interrelate.  Now, a master might CREATE a situation in which a slave may gain the privilege of more responsibilities as they show more discipline and a higher standard of obedience, or taking them away if they do not show such- but some responsibility always remains, no matter how disobedient you are.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_682325/mpage_4/key_responsibility/tm.htm#683960
Responsibility in Slavery

http://www.collarchat.com/m_682325/mpage_1/key_responsibility/tm.htm#682343
Responsibility

http://www.collarchat.com/m_196066/mpage_1/key_responsibility/tm.htm#196066
Responsibility to Self

http://www.collarchat.com/m_312293/mpage_2/key_responsibility/tm.htm#313609
Personal Responsibility

http://www.collarchat.com/m_458412/mpage_1/key_responsibility/tm.htm#459247
Slavery/submission and personal responsibility

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Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Responsibility & Obedience - 12/26/2006 9:35:34 AM   
classykindasassy


Posts: 291
Joined: 12/13/2005
Status: offline 		My response to the OP is that sounds like a good idea. Otherwise, like LA says, you are in over your head. I feel that there needs to be an appropriate balance of power exchanged for things to be sustainable in a relationship.

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"The less I seek my source for some definitive, the closer I am to fine." -The Indigo Girls

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RE: Responsibility & Obedience - 12/26/2006 10:33:44 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavemaia

Recently Master and i were discussing some things that some have found create a good M/s dynamic. He came across an interesting concept that i'm curious to get different opinions about. The concept is this: Is or should the degree and depth of obedience on the slave's/sub's part be equal to the degree and depth of responsibility for the slave/sub on the Master's/Dom's part? If so, why? If not, why?


this slave was sort of confused as to your OP...do you mean the degree to which a slave would obey their Master's directions and desires should or would somehow be "equal" to the degree to which the Master takes responsibility for their slave's physical/emotional/financial/spiritual well-being or the degree to which their Master takes responsibility for a slave's obedience/disobedience?
 
this slave has one earthly Master, therefore the degree and depth of her obedience to Him has no obstacle for being 100%, save the potential conscious or unconscious failure of this slave to follow through with what she has been instructed to do/not do...if this slave served wee ones or an employer or a particular religion at the same time, then she couldn't honestly make that claim, as their might be occasions when serving any of them would have to trump serving Him.
 
Master has accepted this slave for long term service, and as part of that arrangement, is responsible for this slave, physically/financially...if she has a want, an emotional or spiritual issue, she is encouraged to communicate that with Master and it is through this communication and His decisions that wants, emotional and spiritual issues are resolved for this slave.
 
this slave has one job...pleasing Master.  disobedience does not please Him...with His slave, or with Himself.  the "job" of pleasing Him includes the responsibility for all spoken words as well as destructive thoughts, the performance of daily tasks assigned by Master and to communicate with Him any and all pertinent or change in information with regards to His property(this slave as well as any of His other physical possessions that this slave is entrusted with during His absence) as soon as this slave is made aware of it herself, in a way that is pleasing to Him.

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RE: Responsibility & Obedience - 12/26/2006 11:29:42 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
this slave has one earthly Master, therefore the degree and depth of her obedience to Him has no obstacle for being 100%, save the potential conscious or unconscious failure of this slave to follow through with what she has been instructed to do/not do...if this slave served wee ones or an employer or a particular religion at the same time, then she couldn't honestly make that claim, as their might be occasions when serving any of them would have to trump serving Him.
 


I liked and appreciated your entire post, beth, but I wanted to make a comment on these particular words, quoted above.  Your words seem to imply that those who do work or have other obligations are not in 100% depth of submission or obedience to their Masters.  Perhaps this is what you believe and of course we are all entitled to our own opinions here.  I do not fault you yours but I do disagree with them.  Speaking for myself, by working outside the home I am obeying my Master, as this is what he requires of me.  He requires me to work, and to go to school, and he required me to care for my terminally ill parent.  He requires me to attend family funcitons and to help my mother as she tries to get on her feet.  This is so important to him that he will prioritize his other desires and requirements as he deems necessary, so that I can fulfill the obligations he has set out for me. He requires all sorts of things from me that do not have an immediate, direct affect on himself.

If at any time any of these obligations appear to conflict with his authority in any way, I bring such conflict to him and he decides.  This includes my job/career as well.  There have been several times when I left my boss's office and immediately contacted my Master to ask how to handle a given situation.  As with any part of my service, when I run into trouble, I ask him. 

You and I have differences in what our Master's expectations are for us.  You are in the enviable position (to me, anyway :) ) of having outside obstacles, distractions and possible influences removed from you.  I am in a position of having to multitask and manage such obstacles while not missing a beat to what he expects of me.  But I would strongly disagree with the notion that my service to him is incomplete.  He would disagree as well.  Even in my circumstance, nothing trumps his authority.

As for the OP, I understand it to mean that more I obey and deeper I submit, the more responsibility my Master has over me.  It is an interesting concept to consider, and at the outset I tend to agree.  The more that is handed over to him the more he has responsibility of.  He has taken on managing my life and therefore he is responsible for it, overall.  He decides which direction to guide me.  He makes decisions for me based on his intimate knowledge of me. I'd say that's a lot to be reponsible for.  He has required me to give all of myself, and has taken on all of me as his responsibility. 

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RE: Responsibility & Obedience - 12/26/2006 11:42:58 AM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

In my world, this has to be true, even if we're just talking about the energy exchange between the two. If one takes more than the other gives, eventually, one will be so drained, they cannot recover. Same holds true of emotion and power.

Master Fire



Very excellently put.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

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RE: Responsibility & Obedience - 12/26/2006 1:02:49 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
this slave has one earthly Master, therefore the degree and depth of her obedience to Him has no obstacle for being 100%, save the potential conscious or unconscious failure of this slave to follow through with what she has been instructed to do/not do...if this slave served wee ones or an employer or a particular religion at the same time, then she couldn't honestly make that claim, as their might be occasions when serving any of them would have to trump serving Him.
 


I liked and appreciated your entire post, beth, but I wanted to make a comment on these particular words, quoted above.  Your words seem to imply that those who do work or have other obligations are not in 100% depth of submission or obedience to their Masters.  Perhaps this is what you believe and of course we are all entitled to our own opinions here.


thank you, ownedgirlie, this slave often appreciates the contribution you make to threads from your perspective as well.  there is, however, nothing really to disagree with.  this slave was referring to her experience ONLY and in no way meant to imply with her specific choice of words(specifically using if "this" slave served instead of if "a" slave serves) that if anyone does anything any differently within their dynamic it is not to their own 100% depth.  it is merely how this slave rolls.

edited to add specifics and one more thought:
if this slave was serving wee ones or an employer or religion that would potentially clash with Master's authority, she wouldn't serve Him as a slave...a sub, perhaps, but not a slave.  to this slave, part of being a slave is 100% obedience and authority to Master, including the employment of HIS choosing, caring for the wee ones in the manner of HIS choosing, converting to HIS religion of choice...which is why, for THIS slave in her current dynamic, obedience to Him has no outside distractions, but not necessarily because of the limits He has set for this slave but her inherent limits--the inability to bear His child for example or no pre-existing religion or fondness for a career in place to have to leave behind...clear as mud?

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 12/26/2006 1:27:54 PM >

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RE: Responsibility & Obedience - 12/26/2006 1:17:16 PM   
LadyHugs


Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Dear slavemaia, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
I find responsibility and obedience fluid and alive.  At times a Master may have total and or absolute responsibility and the slave total and or absolute obedience.  Indeed, it may be balanced at that point however, in daily application in a M/s dynamic, there may be at times shared responsibility and shared obediences.  In my mind's eyes I see, it really 'depends.'
 
If both Master and slave are responsible to the safety of the bondage equipment; both are responsible.  It is important for the slave to check it as much as the Master, before using it.  At times one or the other may catch something where the other has not.  Neither are to blame but, co-responsibility makes sure that things overlooked are caught.  In co-obedience matters, the Master must be obedient to the boundaries of the relationship and or 'limits' as the slave must be obedient to the boundaries of the relationship.  It is that obedience to each other's rules of the relationship; that maintains and affirms the trust, commitment and respect for each other's roles in such.
 
There are times where the scales of responsibilities and obedience teeter-totter, as roles define which measure properly creates the correct recipe to the situation/circumstances/moment.  That is why I see it fluid or alive, as it is not 'set in stone as dead weight' but, governed moment to moment by those involved.
 
Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs
 
 

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RE: Responsibility & Obedience - 12/26/2006 1:24:03 PM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline 		I think Masterfireman and Thetammyjo have pretty much got it right from my point of view. I would also like to add that in the past for me there has usually been a sort of, well I guess the best words are, "feedback spiral". To try explain that the more submissive my partner has been, the more dominant I have been, and as a result this normally encourages even more submission and so the spiral continues. Of course there are off days where things just dont gel right, when work, family and all the other day to day stuff can interfere and upset the cycle.

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RE: Responsibility & Obedience - 12/26/2006 1:56:30 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Beth, I appreciate your reply, and thank you for it.  Sometimes even specific choices of words can be misunderstood, which is why I did not conclude what you meant; rather I said what it seemed like to me, thus realizing I could have misinterpreted.  We indeed have differences in our situations, but how wonderful it is that we are both in situations that work best for us.

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RE: Responsibility & Obedience - 12/26/2006 7:07:50 PM   
slavemaia


Posts: 395
Joined: 8/26/2006
Status: offline
quote:

this slave was sort of confused as to your OP...do you mean the degree to which a slave would obey their Master's directions and desires should or would somehow be "equal" to the degree to which the Master takes responsibility for their slave's physical/emotional/financial/spiritual well-being or the degree to which their Master takes responsibility for a slave's obedience/disobedience?


In regard to the link W/we were discussing, yes the slave's obedience would be equal to the Master's ability/willingness to be responsible for the slave's physical/emotional/financial/spiritual well-being.
 
Although i initially agreed with your statement that a slave having an employer or wee ones would "trump" the Master's authority, i don't agree now since any responsibility the slave handles is the property of the Master. i work fulltime and i see this as just as much a service to my Master as waiting on Him hand n foot since my income decreases His need to support me.
 
i guess it's all a matter of how much direct control a Master wishes to have on the slave - i.e. time availability and full attention. my question was more about a Master being willing and able to accept full responsibility for any obedience demanded or expected from a slave. For example, if Master were to tell me not to go to work one day, i would think He would be willing and able to handle the results of that direction. If not, then i believe that would put this slave in jeopardy in some form.
 
Hope that's a bit clearer.

_____________________________


She reaches up, not for the apple, but for what causes it to be there.
slave to love - - Chairman's maia

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Responsibility & Obedience - 12/26/2006 9:28:51 PM   
whisperedsighs


Posts: 349
Joined: 11/12/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavemaia

Recently Master and i were discussing some things that some have found create a good M/s dynamic. He came across an interesting concept that i'm curious to get different opinions about. The concept is this: Is or should the degree and depth of obedience on the slave's/sub's part be equal to the degree and depth of responsibility for the slave/sub on the Master's/Dom's part? If so, why? If not, why?


I have to say that what killed the D/s relationship for me with one man was, he didn't take responsibility for me, and my well being.  I think he finally got the point one day when I said to him, "look, Buffy is not coming out of the tv to come cook and clean for you". 



_____________________________

oh my god that was so wrong! .... again please!

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RE: Responsibility & Obedience - 12/27/2006 1:22:05 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavemaia

quote:

this slave was sort of confused as to your OP...do you mean the degree to which a slave would obey their Master's directions and desires should or would somehow be "equal" to the degree to which the Master takes responsibility for their slave's physical/emotional/financial/spiritual well-being or the degree to which their Master takes responsibility for a slave's obedience/disobedience?

Although i initially agreed with your statement that a slave having an employer or wee ones would "trump" the Master's authority, i don't agree now since any responsibility the slave handles is the property of the Master.


thanks for the clarification.  you misquoted this slave however, so to clear things up for you this slave will repost what she said in a previous post to ownedgirlie when she erroneously made the same assumption:  this slave was referring to her experience ONLY and in no way meant to imply with her specific choice of words(specifically using if "this" slave served instead of if "a" slave serves) that if anyone does anything any differently within their dynamic it is not to their own 100% depth.  it is merely how this slave rolls.

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