RE: Humans and Greed

RE: Humans and Greed (Full Version)

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seeksfemslave -> RE: Humans and Greed (12/31/2006 1:36:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave *quote:* The only viable way to study groups of people based upon genetic similarity and have it mean something is in relation to disease, and gene flow to determine what we were doing and when. How about intelligence ? How do you define intelligence? Our IQ tests are cultural artifacts, they are culturally specific, and they do not measure intelligence in any real way. If you had every ethnic group of culturally similar people make up their own IQ tests they would most likely measure different things. Note your 1st quote specificlly mentions GROUPS, your response switches to IQ tests which are used on individuals.. Its clear enough to me that different national/ racial/ cultural groups exhibit different levels of intelligence as indicated by their scientific artistic and literary creativity and their ability to order their societies politically. Happy New Year !

juliaoceania -> RE: Humans and Greed (12/31/2006 2:10:45 PM)
Hmmmm, or do we measure it by their ability to adapt and survive as a group in their environment? Not all environments are equal to producing your "intelligent" achievements.. which that view of the world is very amusing to me in its ethnocentricity I would recommend Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel, which offers a comprehensive look at why Western culture has predominated the "achievements" you would like to give us some sort of "intellectual superiority" for attaining. It shoots every bit of that type of thinking right out of the water, but it takes courage to face the fact that you are not as superior as you would like to believe you are. Read it or don't, but this sort of debate is not the type of debate that can be solved in minute sized posts on CM. His book is 424 pages long, and is lauded by critics all over the world, as well as academics. It won the Pulitzer Prize too.

OedipusRexIt -> RE: Humans and Greed (1/2/2007 10:08:55 AM)
[/quote] Yeh its almost as funny as those who have nothing to offer at all isnt it. <chuckles> [/quote] Interestingly, there was something offered in my comment, albeit more subtle than you may be used to. Humor/irony is used to make the point that some questions are maddeningly unanswerable, and that those who claim to KNOW the answer are..... full of it.

Real0ne -> RE: Humans and Greed (1/2/2007 10:45:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OedipusRexIt Yeh its almost as funny as those who have nothing to offer at all isnt it. <chuckles> Interestingly, there was something offered in my comment, albeit more subtle than you may be used to. Humor/irony is used to make the point that some questions are maddeningly unanswerable, and that those who claim to KNOW the answer are..... full of it. yeh i got your point, which is why i said what i said.

seeksfemslave -> RE: Humans and Greed (1/2/2007 2:19:29 PM)
When I said that simple observation shows that all cultures/racial groups are not equal Juliaoceania responded quote: Not all environments are equal to producing your "intelligent" achievements.. which that view of the world is very amusing to me in its ethnocentricity I would recommend Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel, which offers a comprehensive look at why Western culture has predominated the "achievements" you would like to give us some sort of "intellectual superiority" for attaining. It shoots every bit of that type of thinking right out of the water, but it takes courage to face the fact that you are not as superior as you would like to believe you are. Since I recognise that both the Chinese and Jewish cultures are very high achieving and I am neither Jewish nor Chinese and I certainly have no particular feelings of superiority, in fact I know that I have achieved sweet FA, I think you have fired a blank there Ms JO

juliaoceania -> RE: Humans and Greed (1/2/2007 8:57:15 PM)
Tell me when you have bothered to read the book I recommended before commenting on something so diverse as the topic you believe to know so much about. Your standards are indeed culturally specific based on your own values.

meatcleaver -> RE: Humans and Greed (1/3/2007 4:55:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Since I recognise that both the Chinese and Jewish cultures are very high achieving and I am neither Jewish nor Chinese and I certainly have no particular feelings of superiority, in fact I know that I have achieved sweet FA, I think you have fired a blank there Ms JO Chinese and Jews do seem to be high achieving in immigrant situations but if you look at China and Israel, I suspect there are Chinese and Jewish refuse collectors, sewage workers, down and outs and the whole gamut of different social levels of people you will find in any other country. Look at English people around the world in immigrant situations and you will find high achievers. How many US Presidents have English names and the English aren't the majority immigrant group in the US.

Travelino -> RE: Humans and Greed (1/3/2007 5:58:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Real0ne made a point on political systems and human greed - worthy of a thread. 1) Are humans inherently greedy? I believe there was a balance at one time in history, and may be subject to opinion at any particular point in our history. quote: 2) Are politicians corrupted by power or inherent greed or something else? Politicians are people also, and are subject to human nature. Some enjoy the power they appear to have, and intentionally/unintentionally use/misuse it. quote: 3) Who is to blame for the excesses of politicians - politicians or citizens or both? I would have the tendency to believe that society is responsible for excesses or deficiencies. Marketing techniques are also an influencing factor. Ideas and philosophies are marketed all the time. To directly answer the question, both are responsible. quote: 4) Are we currently living in a passing phase of greed and corruption and in 500 years time people will look back on us as too stupid to understand the harm caused by destruction and exploitation? Yes, we are living amongst greed. I am a little unsure if there will much known about our economic state in 500 years, as there is just speculation and interpretation of how things were 500 years ago, and opinions change/differ depending on who you talk to or new information that rises to the surface. quote: 5) Is capitalism the end of political history? i.e. will it be replaced by an improved model in the future? "Capitalism generally refers to an economic system in which the means of production are mostly privately or corporately owned and operated for profit and in which distribution, production and pricing of goods and services are determined in a largely free market." ..................is one definition. Just recently, I came across some information that indicated that the concept of money has replaced the concept of self. Very interesting, as I am able to see how most people are focused on monetary gain, through decisions that they made (likely influenced by some sort of media). This focus may have inadvertently shifted ones attention from a more positive and abundant outlook to life, to an ever increasing need to satisfy ones personally contrived needs. To directly answer your question, capitalism and politics go hand in hand and will likely thrive in close proximity. Travelino.

seeksfemslave -> RE: Humans and Greed (1/3/2007 6:43:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Since I recognise that both the Chinese and Jewish cultures are very high achieving and I am neither Jewish nor Chinese and I certainly have no particular feelings of superiority, in fact I know that I have achieved sweet FA etc etc Chinese and Jews do seem to be high achieving in immigrant situations but if you look at China and Israel, I suspect there are Chinese and Jewish refuse collectors, sewage workers, down and outs and the whole gamut of different social levels of etc etc etc. But the point is that these distributions are covered for individuals by the bell shaped curves showing frequency of occurance of say intelligence (x) axis against an index of intelligence ( y) axis My point is that when judged across societies then the higher achiever's graphs would be shifted to the right. ie towards the likelyhood of achieving more. This is confirmed by then observing the achievements of for example the Indians of Sarawak, the Aborigenes of Australia and maybe the Brits. Who are the Brits I hear you ask ? Those whose antecedents go back a few generations living in the UK I say.

juliaoceania -> RE: Humans and Greed (1/3/2007 10:51:51 AM)
quote: My point is that when judged across societies then the higher achiever's graphs would be shifted to the right. ie towards the likelyhood of achieving more. This is confirmed by then observing the achievements of for example the Indians of Sarawak, the Aborigenes of Australia and maybe the Brits. Who are the Brits I hear you ask ? Those whose antecedents go back a few generations living in the UK I say. When a society has more free time with which to make things with they will have more time to invest in "achievements". The book I mentioned deals specifically with this topic and it takes a few hundred pages to lay out a very intricate case for why people living in different places have achieved different things at different times. Wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel The theory outlined Diamond argues that Eurasian civilization is not so much a product of ingenuity, but of opportunity and necessity. That is, civilization is not created out of sheer will or intelligence, but is the result of a chain of developments, each made possible by certain preconditions. In our earliest societies humans lived as hunter-gatherers. The first step towards civilization is the move from hunter-gatherer to agriculture with the domestication and farming of wild crops and animals. Agricultural production leads to food surpluses and this in turn supports sedentary societies, rapid population growth, and specialization of labor. Large societies tend to develop ruling classes and supporting bureaucracies, which leads in turn to the organization of empires. Although agriculture arose in several parts of the world, Eurasia gained an early advantage due to the availability of suitable plant and animal species for domestication. In particular, Mesopotamia had by far the best collection of domesticable plants and animals, and Europe adopted Mesopotamia's animals, plants and agricultural techniques

seeksfemslave -> RE: Humans and Greed (1/3/2007 11:20:21 AM)
First that big blank bit in the post above was somehow created by me when my tiny mind was working overtime trying work out what to say. I dont exactly know what happened but the curser shot to the end of what I suppose is the space available and that space was saved. So....all you have to do is initiate an agricultural system which in the fullness of time creates surpluses which then gives people leisure and ulimately allows things like the Web and its intricately interconnected computer systems to be created. Tosh. It strikes me that agricultural systems require forsight and intelligence to setup therefore from my viewpoint its most unlikely that the theories are true. What probably IS true is that those societies that have developed to very high levels followed this path. I note the book was written in 1997 by a prof. at UCLA. Take a chance and guess that UCLA is a hotbed of PC thinking. Is it claimed that the reason the Abo's have didgeredos and the Europeans have symphony orchestras is simply because the Abos wouldnt stop wandering around and construct a farm? Or to give comfort to the anti Westerners the Sarawakians have blowpipes and the French developed an Exocet guided missile. ?

juliaoceania -> RE: Humans and Greed (1/3/2007 11:38:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave First that big blank bit in the post above was somehow created by me when my tiny mind was working overtime trying work out what to say. I dont exactly know what happened but the curser shot to the end of what I suppose is the space available and that space was saved. So....all you have to do is initiate an agricultural system which in the fullness of time creates surpluses which then gives people leisure and ulimately allows things like the Web and its intricately interconnected computer systems to be created. Tosh. It strikes me that agricultural systems require forsight and intelligence to setup therefore from my viewpoint its most unlikely that the theories are true. What probably IS true is that those societies that have developed to very high levels followed this path. I note the book was written in 1997 by a prof. at UCLA. Take a chance and guess that UCLA is a hotbed of PC thinking. Is it claimed that the reason the Abo's have didgeredos and the Europeans have symphony orchestras is simply because the Abos wouldnt stop wandering around and construct a farm? Or to give comfort to the anti Westerners the Sarawakians have blowpipes and the French developed an Exocet guided missile. ? Since you will not bother to read exactly what the theory is, and are basically guessing, I am done here.... you can lead a man to data but you cannot make him think... or for that matter even read the link to establish what exactly the theory states.

seeksfemslave -> RE: Humans and Greed (1/3/2007 2:19:10 PM)
The first point ( in para. 2 of the theory outline ) moving from hunter gatherers to farmers, in post 50 is inaccurate then ?

juliaoceania -> RE: Humans and Greed (1/3/2007 2:24:32 PM)
The book talks about suitability for domestication of some animal and plant species compared with others based upon regions of the world. It talks about the fact that areas with animals and plants more suitable for domestication were able to farm, whereas those without abundant plant and animal species that were good for domestication tended to remain in smaller scale societies. It truly is a wonderful read, backed up with historical, biological, and geographic accuracy.... and the book was written to answer a question... Why some regions of the world have so much, and others have so little. It is the premeire explanatory model right now to answer this question. I really do not have much respect for attacking the university Dr Diamond teaches at instead of attacking his work. It is really a very intellectually lazy way to debate and does not further any sort of knowledge.

seeksfemslave -> RE: Humans and Greed (1/3/2007 2:32:13 PM)
In what way is suggesting that some departments of UCLA may be PC an attack? You dont deny the truth of the suggestion even though I openly stated it was a guess.

juliaoceania -> RE: Humans and Greed (1/3/2007 2:37:13 PM)
To bring up the university he teaches at in a way that seeks to discredit his work quite amuses me. It just shows me that holding on to your world view is so important to you that you will not look at something that may contradict your world view. That's ok, really it is. I can see everything I posted to you has been a waste of my precious time and I will not bother anymore. I tend to like to debate other people based upon what they present as evidence to support their position. You could present evidence of a sort I suppose, but your world view has not been seriously accepted by anyone I respect intellectually in many many decades. It is a passe` way of viewing the world we live in and the people that populate this world.

seeksfemslave -> RE: Humans and Greed (1/3/2007 2:46:11 PM)
Actually my World View has changed dramatically over the years. When I was a young man I used to accept what may be now identified as PC thinking ie the idea that we are all equal under the skin, that criminals need to be told that criminality is wrong and that will be sufficient, really their upbringing is an excuse, that all people will achieve and behave well given the opportunity, the problems in Africa or India were all due to the colonialists etc etc etc. Now to quote my old friend NorthernGent I see all those views as a load of old BOLLOCKS !

juliaoceania -> RE: Humans and Greed (1/3/2007 4:06:03 PM)
Wow, you really are stuck in a cave somewhere aren't you? I am so glad I was not raised to be ethnocentric or racist. I am also glad that life has not taught me to be any different. People that view the world through their own eyes based upon limited examples instead of looking at the world logically tend to be that way. It is the fallacy of going from the specific to the general without enough examples to support your conclusion. I would like to see the studies that support your assertions so I could tear them apart based upon their methodology, it was something I did in college just for the fun of it. Yes, I need more hobbies[:D]

Vendaval -> RE: Humans and Greed (1/4/2007 1:54:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Real0ne made a point on political systems and human greed - worthy of a thread. 1) Are humans inherently greedy? I would have to say, inherently selfish. Sharing and bonding with another person(s) necessitates control of one's own ego. 2) Are politicians corrupted by power or inherent greed or something else? Lust for power 3) Who is to blame for the excesses of politicians - politicians or citizens or both? Both take the blame and the shame; politicos for their power mongering and the many citizens of apathy and indulgence. 4) Are we currently living in a passing phase of greed and corruption and in 500 years time people will look back on us as too stupid to understand the harm caused by destruction and exploitation? Unfortunately, human nature does not change unless there is/are a serious and compelling reason(s) for change to ensure continued survival, both as an individual and as a species. The jury is still out on this one. 5) Is capitalism the end of political history? i.e. will it be replaced by an improved model in the future? If the current rate of environmental degradation continues, we are headed backwards to the hunting and gathering stage with pockets of horticulture/agriculture areas protected by warriors of one tribe against raiders from other tribes. Mad Max, start your engine, Vendaval

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