RE: It Pains Me To Say This (Full Version)

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MasterFireMaam -> RE: It Pains Me To Say This (12/29/2006 11:20:11 PM)

The intent behind an action defines the action a great deal. Compare the intents behind sex and rape, for example. The physical acts might be and look the same, but the intent sure as hell isn't.

Master Fire




Stephann -> RE: It Pains Me To Say This (12/30/2006 12:17:48 AM)

Sly, whatever label you identify with is peachy to us. 

My real suggestion, though, is to take a closer look at exactly what makes the 'sick fuck' tick.  We regularly dehumanize criminals.  It gives us the illusion of superiority and safety in thinking "there isn't just a line between us, there's two sixteen foot walls with electrified barbed wire."  Quietly at night, though we wonder "but for the grace of God, there go I..."

Spend a couple hours poking around crime sites (staring here isn't as good a place as any.)  Read a couple papers on criminal behavior from the net.  Try to picture the forces and motivations that drive men (almost exclusively men) to such bizzare acts.  It's not light reading, certainly not for the squeamish.  But in coming to terms with the reality, that these people have no more in common with the a BDSM 'sadist' than you do with a two headed albino.  A combination of physiological differences and psychological damage is what causes the problems.   They stop being 'sick fucks' and start becoming sick men.  Violently, morbidly, terrifyingly dangerous, sick men, but sick men none the less.   Understanding that, will show you exactly why you are not that person.

Stephan




SusanofO -> RE: It Pains Me To Say This (12/30/2006 2:26:36 AM)

Stephann: Good links! Thanks for the reference.

- Susan




soultoshare -> RE: It Pains Me To Say This (12/30/2006 9:22:40 AM)

Bravo, Devil!  reading your post made sense to me, his however seemed not only mean, but condescending.  Air your opinions as much as you want!  I too believe that it is an issue of control.  A sadist recognizzes limts of endurance and pain, and takes the appropriate steps to adjust what he's doing.....the psychopath derives his thrill by going above and beyond those limits, and doesn't feel the least bit guilty in maiming or worse, killing a person.  Hell, he'll take a trophy!  I'm not sure if i'm a masochist totally, because i do have pain tolerances, but on the one occasion my play partner stepped over the limit, he immediately stopped what he was doing and saw to me.  That's what makes him a sadist, NOT a psychopath.

Again, this is just an opinion, a view on the topic.  NOT A FACT! 

happy new year to all.....
m




Phoenix2raven -> RE: It Pains Me To Say This (12/30/2006 10:05:12 AM)

In my humble opinion the person with antisocial personality disorder cant recognise inside him/herself  that what they are doing is wrong. The lack of this crucial feeling is what separates the ethical sadist from the monster. Just the fact that anyone questions "is this right" tells me that they are not the monster on the news. 
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

This is most commonly known as "the ethical sadist" (one who values free and informed consent) versus "the unethical sadist" (one who doesn't)

I don't want to be anywhere close to an unethical sadist.




WyrdRich -> RE: It Pains Me To Say This (12/30/2006 11:03:42 AM)

         I think the sicko types know perfectly well that what they are doing is wrong.  They just don't care.




nephandi -> RE: It Pains Me To Say This (12/30/2006 12:44:49 PM)

Not always, if one is mentaly sick one can definitly hold ilusions and not know one is doing somthing wrong. When i was 9 years old i had a psychothic episode, i belived everyone was out to get me and just sat on the refrigiater screaming, i even belived the kind pet dog my family had had a coat of posion on his fur. i totaly belived that. So if i could belive our dog was psoionus, somone can definitly belive some for of abuse is just ok, pepole can definitly have dlusjions and just be sick.




theMadWelder -> RE: It Pains Me To Say This (12/30/2006 2:37:15 PM)

If I may put my two cents in.

Consent is paramount, both involved in the act/scene willingly consent to what tricks/stunts performance will be done, between the two of said participants.

I have a simple rule to go by, it is only do what I have done or had performed on myself(body)

ps, was I too pc?




Donnalee -> RE: It Pains Me To Say This (12/30/2006 5:31:06 PM)

quote:

Stephann says....Pathological desires would naturally come from similar types of experiences - though for a pathology to exist, specific events or physiological imbalances in the brain (or most likely a combination of the two) lead to pathological behavior.  Sociopaths, for example, aren't usually seen as simply being 'born' - it's the result of specific learned behaviors, either emulation of authority figures, or successfully defeating authority figures.  Lack of empathy and objectification of others, for example, would be a typical sign of a sociopath. 


My two pennies:
There is actually some interesting new research on this in the past few years using FMRI imaging, and some other types of brain peeking thats done while the subject is thinking, looking at, or talking about different things.   Whether the differences in some sociopath's brains are a function of repeated training or were there from the start isn't known.  But in some cases, there are very clear deviations in the brain that are common among those with sociopathic tics.  I wonder how that research will be used and what new discoveries lie in wait as technology gives us new ways to see things.
 
When I hear discussions like these, I think it's good to remember that the same word used in a legal, psychiatric, religious and kink discussions mean different things, and they don't cross boundaries very well.  Like the word insane.  It's a legal term, not a medical one, but used commonly in the general public.  You can be declared insane by a judge, but not diagnosed that by your doctor.
 
quote:

Spend a couple hours poking around crime sites (staring here isn't as good a place as any.)  Read a couple papers on criminal behavior from the net.  Try to picture the forces and motivations that drive men (almost exclusively men) to such bizzare acts.  It's not light reading, certainly not for the squeamish.  But in coming to terms with the reality, that these people have no more in common with the a BDSM 'sadist' than you do with a two headed albino.  A combination of physiological differences and psychological damage is what causes the problems.   They stop being 'sick fucks' and start becoming sick men.  Violently, morbidly, terrifyingly dangerous, sick men, but sick men none the less.   Understanding that, will show you exactly why you are not that person.


I think this is the best advice to anyone wondering how sick their sadistic bents are.  I've worked in prisons, including 6 months in a Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity unit (NGRI), and believe you me, those folks are humans just like me and then it goes horribly wrong. Many of them did horrible  and sadistic things, got stabilized on medication and then are ready to return to the population within a few years. 
 
 It was the folks in the regular prison (the sociopaths) that seemed less human more often.  There is a coldness there that is palpable, no matter how charming or rational they want to sound.  I never saw any of them really ponder their victim.  They certainly weren't voicing their concerns within their community for feedback.  There is a real disconnect there.
 
A sexual sadist who is enjoying the pain of their partner and enjoying inflicting it is connected.  It's a HUGE difference.  There is a before, during and after.  Thats not so much the case with the 'sick fuck'.   Although I don't subscribe to the addage that "If you're wondering if you're insane, you probably aren't."  I do think it's probably a better rule of thumb that if you're concerned about your status on the sexual sadist/ sick fuck continuem, you're probably closer to the former.
 
 
  *edited for font size error




catfood -> RE: It Pains Me To Say This (12/30/2006 5:48:51 PM)

excellent discussion here, gets the hamster on the wheel in my head.  i've pondered this one since that very first time i found myself at the handle end of a flogger, enjoying the hell out of it.  i tend to over-analyze and intellectualize bdsm to death, to the detriment of myself and my partner.  but this issue has become relatively simple in my eyes.  before i go a-whackin', a detailed discussion of the proposed activities has taken place, and an understanding of limits is there, and i am sure that the person on the other end of the whip is getting what they need, just as i am.  perhaps this sounds hokey or vague, but i am tuned in to a sub.  if the energy is not flowing, the "vibe" is wrong, the scene doesn't continue.  i get my needs filled from the exchange of that "energy."  that has always been at the core of my sadism.  i envision it as a connection between myself and her.  if that connection is not there, i may as well be chopping wood or waxing my car (with parrafin?). 

perhaps it is the fact that i do not for one second feed off someone's "pain."  i stomp on your foot (apt example, thanks), i get nothing out of it.  i whip you mercilessly, and i get your energy and the knowledge that i've taken you where you needed to go. and afterward, i get to hold you and feel a depth of tenderness i can only imagine a parent feels for a child.





adaddysgirl -> RE: It Pains Me To Say This (12/30/2006 6:48:50 PM)

i really don't know a lot about sadists but i always find the topic interesting.  So there is a question i would like to ask (and i might as well ask you [:-]).....before you got into 'the lifestyle', did you have sadistic urges?  (And this is not about nature/nurture).  i mean, say, when you were younger, did you have such feelings that may have urged you to torture animals...or inflict pain on another who was not consenting?
 
i mean, bdsm doesn't make one a sadist, does it?  So how did sadists handle those feelings before they found an acceptable outlet?
 
Daddysgirl




untamedpt -> RE: It Pains Me To Say This (12/30/2006 7:24:01 PM)

Maybe it's just me... but on the other hand of all this, i believe the big difference is in aftercare. The pain as a punishment or to give pleasure creates a huge emotional response, but aftercare provides a good direction to it. Returns my sanity and my dignity. And that i've never seen reported in psychos....




SlyStone -> RE: It Pains Me To Say This (12/30/2006 7:32:55 PM)

quote:

Matter of fact, I concluded after awhile (and I did some thinking about this, and quite a lot, about six months ago) that they (bdsm practitioners of Sadism) might actually have more empathy, since they want to take things "further" so they can "feel more". It didn't occur to me they had hardened feelings, after I really considered it in-depth - and that might be the reason they needed what others might consider some kind of provoking-pain "overdose". I concluded the opposite. Eventually. I really thought about it a lot, too.


You may be right when it comes to what you call "bdsm practioners of Sadism", I hope you are right. But  I have to disagree on one point. What you call trying to take things further so the Sadist could  feel more I would say is an attempt to take things further in an attempt to feel at all. I think Sadism is purely a selfish act and this is an internal struggle without regard for the submissive so  I am not sure that empathy is the correct term here.


Others here have talked about intent as what seperates what LA calls the ethical sadist from the unethical one  but I believe ethical or unethical it is not  about intent, because the intent of a sadist is to inflict pain on another for his/her pleasure or to fulfill his/her need, period. Again a selfish act, and I say this in all honesty as someone who has, for lack of a better term, sadistic tendencies.

What is in question I think is how "human" one is, that is what seperates me from the  psycho in the news, his lack of humanity. Maybe it's another way of saying one is able to feel empathy but I think it's even more than that, it's, is one capable of feeling at all, because I think the ability to feel is a good part of what makes us human.

So than I ask myself this question:

If you were free of the societal legal restraints and fear of the law would you do what you do if you did not have consent?

I answer no and find peace in that.







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