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It Pains Me To Say This - 12/29/2006 3:40:08 PM

SlyStone

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Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
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But I take pleasure in giving pain, twisted fuck that I am. It is not a prerequisite for a bdsm relationship and it is not something that I dwell on but there are times when I do like to inflict it and I like to see the reaction of my submissive as she takes it.

And so I wonder, what separates me from the psycho we read about in the paper who gets off on torturing women. Is it consent? Is it because she is a masochist? Is that all it is? Is the mindset the same but the fact that it is consensual all that separates?

Because I am thinking if you get off on only the infliction of pain without regard to the human being or animal on the other end than consent seems more of a convenience than a rule.

I know that for me that "more" is intent, because my intent is to fulfill both my needs, that is the pleasure I take in inflicting that pain, and the needs of my submissive, to take her to a place where nothing exists but her self and that one sensation and that one other human being causing that sensation and how it tests her will to survive and makes her feel alive and when it ends, there is gratitude that she is indeed alive. To me that is what pain is for.

For the sadist who inflicts pain without regard to the submissive, (even if he/she is a total masochist who wants/needs only this) and only to gain a release within his or her self I wonder what separates them from the guy in the news.

Consent you say? well of course there is that, but shouldn't there be more? Is there more?

Post #: 1

RE: It Pains Me To Say This - 12/29/2006 4:00:38 PM

bandit25

Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline

Not necessarily. I mean, hopefully the sadist stops short of damage..unlike the guy in the paper. Not everyone wants more...some just want pain...some just want to give pain.

(in reply to SlyStone)

Post #: 2

RE: It Pains Me To Say This - 12/29/2006 4:13:27 PM

Noah

Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

... but shouldn't there be more? Is there more?

I don't understand what you mean by that "should". Is this a question about morality or credentials or statistics or what?

(in reply to SlyStone)

Post #: 3

RE: It Pains Me To Say This - 12/29/2006 4:30:05 PM

WyrdRich

Posts: 1733
Joined: 1/3/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

Is there more?

Absolutely, Sly. I don't want to sound all meta-physical and New Agey here, but WIITWD can create a lot of energy and, if everyone involved WANTS to be there, that energy will be positive.

The sick fuck in the paper gets his kicks from negative energy. That's the difference. Just my opinion.

< Message edited by WyrdRich -- 12/29/2006 4:33:08 PM >

(in reply to SlyStone)

Post #: 4

RE: It Pains Me To Say This - 12/29/2006 4:45:39 PM

SusanofO

Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline

Ever since I joined this site last year, seems I've been falling deeper into a well where I just have no idea how to define much anymore, in terms of certain bdsm activities and where the "line" where a thing is "acceptable" or not is drawn - for anyone else, that is. My usual gut-level response to whatever (consensual) thing anyone wants to do now - no matter how far from my own exerience it may be removed seems to be - Great. Enjoy. Of course, I never cared that much to begin with.

There are people I've seen debate the whole concept of "consensuality" pretty successfully, too. Like - by the end of the debate, they've gotten rid of the idea, as far as whether it needs to always exist, or not, in a bdsm scenario. Not that I could re-construct that argument here (or want to, necessarily), but I remember reading it, and at the time, it was pretty convincing.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 12/29/2006 4:50:29 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to SlyStone)

Post #: 5

RE: It Pains Me To Say This - 12/29/2006 4:50:01 PM

Devilslilsister

Posts: 1262
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

But I take pleasure in giving pain, twisted fuck that I am. It is not a prerequisite for a bdsm relationship and it is not something that I dwell on but there are times when I do like to inflict it and I like to see the reaction of my submissive as she takes it.

And so I wonder, what separates me from the psycho we read about in the paper who gets off on torturing women. Is it consent? Is it because she is a masochist? Is that all it is? Is the mindset the same but the fact that it is consensual all that separates?

Because I am thinking if you get off on only the infliction of pain without regard to the human being or animal on the other end than consent seems more of a convenience than a rule.

I know that for me that "more" is intent, because my intent is to fulfill both my needs, that is the pleasure I take in inflicting that pain, and the needs of my submissive, to take her to a place where nothing exists but her self and that one sensation and that one other human being causing that sensation and how it tests her will to survive and makes her feel alive and when it ends, there is gratitude that she is indeed alive. To me that is what pain is for.

For the sadist who inflicts pain without regard to the submissive, (even if he/she is a total masochist who wants/needs only this) and only to gain a release within his or her self I wonder what separates them from the guy in the news.

Consent you say? well of course there is that, but shouldn't there be more? Is there more?

you are able to control it and not let it control you. You dont go running around rampaging on women, unmentionables, or men. Its not just about consent. Its about control. What seperates is the control. The psycho paths do not control it, but let it fly freely upon who ever. The sadist lets it loose in a controlled enviroment where it wont harm. While the psychopath could careless if it harms. Whether or not its for a Sadists own release, he still cares. They take care not to damage, scar, or go beyond any sane boundaries.

Its about the internal control

_____________________________

My ability to cope with BS is at an all time low - me

i may look like i'm doing nothing, but i'm very busy at a cellular level

(in reply to SlyStone)

Post #: 6

RE: It Pains Me To Say This - 12/29/2006 5:35:15 PM

Noah

Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Devilslilsister
The psycho paths do not control it, but let it fly freely upon who ever.

I can't imagine what base of evidence exists for this. On the contrary it seems to me that, often enough, psychopaths undertake their projects with absolutely ornate concern as to the choice of a victim.

quote:

The sadist lets it loose in a controlled enviroment where it wont harm. While the psychopath could careless if it harms.

Just how much have you studied pathological psychology? Why would someone go to all the trouble of torturing another person if the first person was unconcerned about harm? Harm seems in many cases to be the, or at least a primary concern.

quote:

Whether or not its for a Sadists own release, he still cares.

Everyone cares. The nature and objects of our care vary.

quote:

They take care not to damage, scar, or go beyond any sane boundaries.

Every welt and black-and-blue mark is damage. Scarification is a well-established fetish.

As for "any sane boundaries". One sane boundary would be "no pain for the sake of gratification." I think we can agree that this is a sane boundary which non-pathological sadists often go beyond.

There goes that theory.

You just go on and on, don't you? Spouting these ill-founded, poorly thought out opinions as if they were facts.

quote:

Its about the internal control

It seems to me that the only control that might be in question is internal, for either sort of sadist. It can't be denied that both kinds of sadist exercise internal control. To put it all down to control is just to ask the same question from a position one step further removed from any useful answer, as it seems to me.

(in reply to Devilslilsister)

Post #: 7

RE: It Pains Me To Say This - 12/29/2006 5:39:51 PM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

Ah, if only this issue were so simple as to simply say 'He's just a sick fuck.'

First off, this is Steve's Armchair Psychology 101 - I'm not a professional, and these are just my opinions. This topic could easily keep a team of psychologists occupied for months or years, with mounds of data to support reams of conclusions and opinions, so I'm just barely scratching the surface here. A quick read here
http://ipgcounseling.com/psychology_and_bdsm.html
and here
http://ipgcounseling.com/issues_with_kinky_clients.html
is certainly worthwhile, for a more professional perspective.

Historically, the psychological community has only recently began to establish differences between pathological and 'lifestyle' oriented sadism and kink. When I say differences, I refer to tendencies - one could exhibit both 'normal' fetish or kink interests, while still having pathological (i.e. criminal or deviant) desires.

I figure that kink derives either from specific triggers related to strong emotional events, or from a conscious exposure to kink. Essentially, one likes bondage either because they liked playing 'tie me up' as a kid, or endured physical punishment (spanking) regularly; or they like it because they have intentionally chosen to regularly watch/read bondage related material (or any number of other possible means of exposure.) A bit of sexual instinct does, obviously, come into play - thus one might be physiologically predisposed to kink.

Pathological desires would naturally come from similar types of experiences - though for a pathology to exist, specific events or physiological imbalances in the brain (or most likely a combination of the two) lead to pathological behavior. Sociopaths, for example, aren't usually seen as simply being 'born' - it's the result of specific learned behaviors, either emulation of authority figures, or successfully defeating authority figures. Lack of empathy and objectification of others, for example, would be a typical sign of a sociopath.

When pathology is compounded with kink, specific triggers for one would seemingly go hand in hand. A person with no sense of empathy, who enjoys torturing and killing animals learns to enjoy the feeling of power over the creature. When this ramps up to people, the sense of power (something kink related) coupled with the lack of empathy (a pathological symptom) becomes the recipe for a pathological sadist - someone who enjoys hurting others, especially those who do not consent. It doesn't necessarily stem from a lack of control over their life (though that's possible) - it could just as easily derive from a self-perceived sense of superiority towards humanity, a God complex, if you will. The more intelligent, the more difficult it becomes to sense these traits in a person.

For the opening poster, the very fact that you are concerned about your own behavior suggests your interests are not pathological. As a sadist, our emotional responses run very deep - and we often lack the experience and even vocabulary to understand the nature of those emotions. The most important difference between you and a sociopath, is that you care about who you inflict pain on.

If you're still not convinced, ask yourself "Do I enjoy it when I step on someone's foot?" Probably not, anymore than a dentist enjoys drilling into his patient, or a physical therapist enjoys pushing a patient on their way to recovery. They deal with pain, probably far more often than you do. It doesn't mean they enjoy it. Would you enjoy their jobs?

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to Devilslilsister)

Post #: 8

RE: It Pains Me To Say This - 12/29/2006 5:42:18 PM

SusanofO

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Joined: 12/19/2005
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Now I remember! The person who had this discussion before in another thread, said that for some Sadists that line of "consensuality" can get pretty blurry, and it bothers them not.

And right after he said that, he got jumped on like he was the re-incarnation of Adolf Hitler. But, I think he was trying to examine the issue from an intellectual standpoint. And define just how far the concept of consensuality stretches. I can't remember the base argument, but I remember buying it, at the time.

And it didn't sound "evil" - it made sense. Of course I wish I could remember exactly what was said. I can't - but "consensual" got sort of blurry, as far as what it meant in special cases...

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 12/29/2006 6:12:26 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Noah)

Post #: 9

RE: It Pains Me To Say This - 12/29/2006 6:00:42 PM

angelic

Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline

Susan, you always post with such grace. Thank you.

(Back to your regularly scheduled thread).

_____________________________

~....and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return.~ -- Leonardo de Vinci

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 10

RE: It Pains Me To Say This - 12/29/2006 6:05:18 PM

SusanofO

Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline

Angelic: I noticed you liked my nominating myself for person with the "scariest profile at CM", too - on that other thread ( yes - it's me. My fudge making and work with the homeless has terrified millions...). It's nice to have an audience. Thanks.

Yes - back to the topic at hand... Sadists are people, too.
I think there's probably a "line" somewhere that defines what is "acceptable" as far as what is considered generally to be "harmful". Not that I'd dare to venture a guess as to what it actually is. Or dare to say that consensual adults have to give a damn about some of that, really (more on that, below). Plenty of bdsm is considered "assualt" in the "legal sense" (depending on where you live). And it's not hurting anyone not consensually involved.

This may be a cop-out, but right now, in general, "harm" is determined by the laws in our country, as far as "will doing it, and getting caught, send you to prison"?

Of course, that is not an acceptable definition when one considers there are laws that make no sense - some things (I think) that are against the law maybe shouldn't be - and other things are not that maybe should be.

I Also think what is considered acceptable as far as what is considered harmful in a general sense, can be a reflection not only of "psychology" (or even biology) but also historically culturally reflected (in behavior) values. If we were all living in particular tribes in New Guinea, we could be cannibals, for instance. And that would not be considered unusual. At all.

Granted, canniablism has never been the norm anywhere on Earth (as far as I know), barring extreme circumstances - but still, the example will do to make my point.

I realize I maybe am sort of skirting the "real issue", but it's the best I can do, for now, as far as a comment.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 12/29/2006 6:50:07 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to angelic)

Post #: 11

RE: It Pains Me To Say This - 12/29/2006 6:12:37 PM

SlyStone

Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline

First of all thank you guys for your postings, all interesting and I mean that.

quote:

And it didn't sound "evil" - it made sense. Of course I wish I could remember exactly what was said. I can't - but "consensual" got sort of blurry, as far as what it meant in special cases...

I think one arguement that could be made is that a true psycho sadist would not get pleasure if there is consent, but I think that is a circular one because consent or not there is still the issue of no feeling or empathy for the submissive/object.

So either there is no such thing as a true sadist in the consensual bdsm context or the psycho sadist can exist in that dynamic in which case I ask again, what is the difference?

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 12

RE: It Pains Me To Say This - 12/29/2006 6:28:03 PM

SusanofO

Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
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Prison time? I see what you mean and what you are thinking. Maybe nobody knows. Or opinions vary (as usual). For me, any responsible Sadist must know him or herself well enough to be able to 'control' what they do. So - self control over their actual actions, no matter what is or may be, happening in their "psyche" (to me) is the main issue. I don't care what is going on up there in their head. I care what they do. I mean what is in their head is perhaps interesting from a psychology standpoint, or maybe so I could add to their pleasure (in a consensual experience), maybe - but that's it.

I do not believe that, as a rule, all Sadists, in general, utterly lack empathy. For one thing, if that were true, in my mind, they could never exhibit the kinds of social skills to get along with other people I've seen some exhibit in social situations. Empathy (to a degree) is a function of being able to be sociable. I suppose one could arge that it's "targeted sociability" so they are just "Jekyll and Hyde" characters, but I don't think that holds water if you'd look at the behavior of some Sadistic people on a daily basis. So that's one more generalization that could be rotting the whole barrel of apples.

Matter of fact, I concluded after awhile (and I did some thinking about this, and quite a lot, about six months ago) that they (bdsm practitioners of Sadism) might actually have more empathy, since they want to take things "further" so they can "feel more". It didn't occur to me they had hardened feelings, after I really considered it in-depth - and that might be the reason they needed what others might consider some kind of provoking-pain "overdose". I concluded the opposite. Eventually. I really thought about it a lot, too.

Pschologists in general, and the entire medical profession have at times been so off-base on some of the ideas they've propelled into people's heads for years it's amazing. Just in the early 1980's homosexuality, for instance, was still considered a major disorder. Masturbation used to make people blind, Etc. Sadists have no empathy.

Gee, I dunno. How many did the "experts" interview to determine this "factoid"? And how many of these folks were not from a sample of serial killers on death row? Know what I mean?

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 12/29/2006 6:59:47 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to SlyStone)

Post #: 13

RE: It Pains Me To Say This - 12/29/2006 7:17:20 PM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

Susan, you might enjoy the links up there. They were written by a psychologist who describes himself as 'queer' and 'kinked.'

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 14

RE: It Pains Me To Say This - 12/29/2006 9:15:53 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

This is most commonly known as "the ethical sadist" (one who values free and informed consent) versus "the unethical sadist" (one who doesn't)

I don't want to be anywhere close to an unethical sadist.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 15

RE: It Pains Me To Say This - 12/29/2006 9:22:05 PM

Devilslilsister

Posts: 1262
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline

quote:

You just go on and on, don't you? Spouting these ill-founded, poorly thought out opinions as if they were facts.

Now that was just mean Noah, do you feel better for putting me down?

Yes i do tend to go on and on. It’s a bad habit of mine. Something i try to work on at times and other times i just let go and enjoy myself not worrying whether my going on and on is pissing on another’s boots. Like with Master i try and keep it to a few sentences, but with the masses it generally doesn’t matter too much.

My opinions are my opinions - whether they are ill founded or poorly thought is all a matter of perspective. Compared to some they are not and compared to others like you, they apparently are. I will not shut myself up so those that find my opinions poorly thought out and ill founded can be happy. You can ignore me if you please.

I do not remember stating they were facts. If you think my word is good enough to be a fact that is also your issue not mine. i am generally humble enough to know that they are not and should not be taken as so. This is why i usually attach a personal story for the things i say, so others can see where i am coming from. It is why i do not state quotes from dictionaries or other factual sources to back myself up.

The control idea seemed like a good one. I unfortunately did not see your theory on what the separation is. Could you please enlighten all of us? My apologies for spouting my opinion on a forum such as this. Hopefully it hasn’t ruined your night and you are able to move forward. Please, in the future if you find my posts so horrid ignore them or block me

::sigh:: edited for spell check -i spelled "opinion" horribly wrong

< Message edited by Devilslilsister -- 12/29/2006 9:53:53 PM >

_____________________________

My ability to cope with BS is at an all time low - me

i may look like i'm doing nothing, but i'm very busy at a cellular level

(in reply to Noah)

Post #: 16

RE: It Pains Me To Say This - 12/29/2006 9:40:01 PM

shatteringlilium

Posts: 35
Joined: 10/19/2005
From: BFE, Washington
Status: offline

First of all, Noah -

Don't be such an asshat, if you don't know how to debate something without throwing a stone at someone, keep your OWN opinions to yourself. She didn't say she was stating a fact - not even close. She was expressing an opinion just as much as you were. People like you make me want to hurt people.

In the UNethical sadist wort of way

As for the original poster -

Whether or not there is a difference is had to define. You have to look at a myriad of different spectrums, all of which have been brought up - spiritual, psychological, emotional, scientific, logical, whathaveyou.

From a spiritual standpoint, as was said before, the difference is your infliction of pain only on the consenting and only to the extent that they too find pleasurable; feeding off of pain-derived positive energy, whereas a no-limits sadist who is doing it for their own enjoyment is feeding off of pure negative energy caused from consuming the pain of the UNwilling. If you will.

From a psychological standpoint, I can't say much. I never took psychology. But there are different pathologies to each entity.

From the emotional standpoint, you're better than the "un"ethical Sadist, largely in the fact that you express concern that you are "like" them and that you are tainted in a not-so-okay way.

From the logical or scientific standpoint (which I suck at going into), it's also got to do with brain chemistry, how you were made. That sort of stuff.

Also, rememebr - masochists are not looked at in any more of a positive light as sadists. There are those who resort to self-infliction or act in a destructive manner recklessly; they are different from those who only participate in BDSM activities in a safe environment and are careful with their bodies.

Humans come in a wide spectrum. It's one of those near-impossible things to really look at and come up with a "good" answer (in my opinion).

I think you're a good person for asking the question, myself : )

_____________________________

I am standing in the shadow
of my ever-waking mind
And I feel this darkness, hallow
close around me over time
Embraced within my solitude,
alone with my designs
Left on my own to meditate
the shadows of my mind.

(in reply to Noah)

Post #: 17

RE: It Pains Me To Say This - 12/29/2006 10:45:57 PM

SlyStone

Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline

quote:

For the opening poster, the very fact that you are concerned about your own behavior suggests your interests are not pathological. As a sadist, our emotional responses run very deep - and we often lack the experience and even vocabulary to understand the nature of those emotions. The most important difference between you and a sociopath, is that you care about who you inflict pain on.

Stephan it has taken me awhile to respond to you post because it was so fucking interesting I had to give it some thought. I hate when that happens.

It's true that I am concerned and perhaps a bit conflicted. I want/need to understand that I am different from that sick fuck in the news but I am not so sure just how much different, and that is where my thoughts lie. It is a strange thing to take pleasure in anothers pain, not something to be dismissed lightly or explained easily. Born that way, nurtured that way, who gives a shit, it's what it is.

I would never call myself a sadist because I am uncomfortable with the
term . For me it is a very powerful word that transends the concept of consent ( yes I know that's just my perspective and most here would not agree) and I cannot help but wonder at the motivation and the soul behind the title. I guess I would say, if asked, that I have sadistic tendencies kept in check by sanity and empathy. But I still wonder, how empathetic am I really if I can do those things?

I think that as a dominant I may take my the submissive to the edges of darkness and beyond and back in pursuit of my needs and I don't think it hurts to remember that for me to take someone on that journey I had better have more than consent and control and good intentions, I had better have a clear sense of who am as a human being, and it never hurts to remind ones self of that.

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 18

RE: It Pains Me To Say This - 12/29/2006 10:48:49 PM

SlyStone

Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline

quote:

I think you're a good person for asking the question, myself : )

Thank you for saying that.

(in reply to shatteringlilium)

Post #: 19

RE: It Pains Me To Say This - 12/29/2006 10:58:40 PM

shatteringlilium

Posts: 35
Joined: 10/19/2005
From: BFE, Washington
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

quote:

I think you're a good person for asking the question, myself : )

Thank you for saying that.

I enjoy being honest and saying what I think.

*points to her post above* To a fault. I got in trouble for calling names =p Which I shouldn't have done.

...

_____________________________

I am standing in the shadow
of my ever-waking mind
And I feel this darkness, hallow
close around me over time
Embraced within my solitude,
alone with my designs
Left on my own to meditate
the shadows of my mind.

(in reply to SlyStone)

Post #: 20

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