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RE: opinions please? - 12/31/2006 12:50:44 AM

hisannabelle

Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
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owned, mine probably would, too, hehehe.

i've actually seen it work. at board meetings, back when i was on the board for a local nonprofit. well, it didn't really work...it worked when people used it. the problem is, people are so damned impatient.

but i am a big believer in the talking stick when there's the people talking over one another problem, and it may work in this case. i guess i just saw the more urgent issue in th eoriginal post being the issue of seeming disregard for past abuse rather than the issue of not being able to communicate when arguing, since the submissive in question (according to the op) is so triggered about the abuse thing she can't even talk to her dominant...i don't know. i don't do well with arguing in general :\ it's very rare for us to argue.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 21

RE: opinions please? - 12/31/2006 2:19:24 AM

Phoenix2raven

Posts: 347
Joined: 10/14/2006
Status: offline

raven says: thank you all for the different perspectives, i'm a "take what you need, leave the rest" person. if i'm out of ideas, i tend to turn to a group of strangers or near-strangers, so i don't get stuck in my own thought patterns. it's so good to hear so many different ideas, opinions. sometimes, mentoring is a group effort ... it takes a village to raise a subbie *ducks tomatoes and giggles*

i'm still skeeved by the DIQ's statement, cuz IMO it sounds like lazy Domming: throw out something below-the-belt meant to silence the submissive, yet no training, no lesson to be learned. where's the value in that?

(in reply to hisannabelle)

Post #: 22

RE: opinions please? - 12/31/2006 2:52:13 AM

crouchingtigress

Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
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there is a book called Non-violent communication...this book teaches the art of listening...called active listening.....its a skill....people think that they are do ing it when they are only hearing only enough to be formulating their next response to best their opponant...true listening is labor intensive and often exhausting, but always more rewarding.

_____________________________

Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 23

RE: opinions please? - 12/31/2006 3:36:18 AM

eyesopened

Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

there is a book called Non-violent communication...this book teaches the art of listening...called active listening.....its a skill....people think that they are do ing it when they are only hearing only enough to be formulating their next response to best their opponant...true listening is labor intensive and often exhausting, but always more rewarding.

Yea! crouchingtigress, i was actually trained in active listening many years ago and when i mention it more often than not people say "HUH?" so i was just glad to see i'm not the only one who has had experience in the difference between hearing and listening. According to what i was taught, most people only listen to the first two-three seconds of the other person before their brain starts formulating a response. Active listening is hard at first but like most things gets easier with practice. As i said in a different thread, communiction isn't about people talking it's about people listening.

_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

(in reply to crouchingtigress)

Post #: 24

RE: opinions please? - 12/31/2006 3:49:58 AM

crouchingtigress

Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
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quote:

most people only listen to the first two-three seconds of the other person before their brain starts formulating a response

wow 2 or 3 seconds....cant say i am surprised....and yet i am surprised.

i still find it hard to do and it still feels silly to say stuff like "what i heard you say is" ....but it is so worth it dont you think?...its like you have this incredible tool that allows both people to walk away from any "dispute" feeling heard and good about the other person.

i heard this quote once "if some one has to loose in order for me to win,... no one wins"

_____________________________

Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."

(in reply to eyesopened)

Post #: 25

RE: opinions please? - 12/31/2006 6:29:36 AM

julietsierra

Posts: 1841
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline

To the OP:

Well, not taking either side might be a nice approach. It's not your fight. It's not something you really have the power to influence. So, a warm, yet polite "Y'know, I really don't know how to advise you" might just do the trick. Ultimately, it IS their problem.

And here's the thing. Often, we tend to empathize too much without seeing a larger picture.

A long time ago, I had a friend who told me all sorts of negative things about her dominant. I was worried. I was skeeved as you put it. I was... well, I was just pissed off!
And then I was told this interesting little comment by my Master.

"Y'know, they're both in hot water. He told her what he likes but he didn't give her time to understand it. She said she'd cut off her right arm for him, but had no real understanding about what she was saying she'd do. Now he's asking for her arm, even though she's no where near ready to hand it to him and she is realizing that there was probably more to this right arm stuff than she initially thought. They've got some work ahead of them"

In that moment, I stopped being upset with either of them and realized that no matter what "advice" I gave, they'd still have to work it all out themselves. I also realized that if I DID give advice, I'd be on the losing side no matter what happened. If I even agreed with her about the fact that he was being a schmuck and they worked things out, then I'd forever be the one who said he was a schmuck. If they didn't work out, I'd have somehow contributed to their demise. If I didn't agree with her, she'd see me as being untrustworthy and eventually communicate that to her dominant. (I was his friend before hers). I'd lose both my old friend and my new friend.

So now, I just listen and pray they work it out together - which is what they should do anyway.

juliet

(in reply to crouchingtigress)

Post #: 26

RE: opinions please? - 12/31/2006 8:15:32 AM

amor

Posts: 7
Joined: 4/6/2006
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Being that I just moved to Massachusetts from Wyoming, I'm nearly tempted to take offense ~chuckles~ But I understood the intent behind the comment, so...

To the OP: I've run into this problem as well. I'm in TPE with my Master and sometimes things get a little rushed, and W/we tend to talk over each other...however, since He is the Dominant, I have to wait my turn ~winks~ The stick idea is a wonderful one, not one W/we've used, but I know the intent behind the idea, and I think it would work. The therapy idea is also a good one, seeing as I was diagnosed with PTSD, and my Dominant has tried to get me to go to therapy as well. I haven't, because I personally don't see the point in re-hashing what happened to me in the past when I have the future to look forward to, but I have several friends whom have gone and swear by it. Anyway, just my 2 cents ~winks~

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 27

RE: opinions please? - 12/31/2006 9:46:21 AM

adaddysgirl

Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
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When i get 'emotionally intense' as in during a disagreement of sorts, i tend to talk fast, loud, and get the hands wavin'. (Must be that Italian thing...lol.) i had a partner who first gave me a warning of a gag, which at the time i just brushed off....until i sat there in front of him with it in my mouth while he went on to talk. And i had to keep my eyes on him too. i was absolutely mortified! When it was removed, trust me that i was not talking neither fast nor loud....lol.

He was more than willing to give me the chance to talk but i was not going to talk over him, nor do it disrespectfully. Granted, the gag had no negative trigger association for me (other than being embarrassing as hell)...but i think that is key here. For some, a gag might teach a lesson. For others, it could be very traumatic...and the dom really needs to differentiate the two. Otherwise, what good is it? What is the goal? Damage?

BTW....whenever i started getting riled up with the dom i mentioned above....he would just get the gag and put it on the table. Funny how the sight of that resulted in some quick behavior modification

Daddysgirl

(in reply to Phoenix2raven)

Post #: 28

RE: opinions please? - 12/31/2006 9:51:51 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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Joined: 10/25/2005
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FR on the bias thing:

I deal with it in two ways- one is, of course, asking for more information and pointing out that we only have a biased chunk of the story. The other way is to point out that everyone has work they need to do and it's about working together to build a relationship.

If we didn't give advice to threads because we didn't have the full or even majority of the story- well we'd be a pretty silent board. I simply take it as a given and try and compensate for it with my posts.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to adaddysgirl)

Post #: 29

RE: opinions please? - 12/31/2006 10:57:33 AM

julietsierra

Posts: 1841
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

If we didn't give advice to threads because we didn't have the full or even majority of the story- well we'd be a pretty silent board. I simply take it as a given and try and compensate for it with my posts.

LOL...

Oh, I'm all for the dispensing of advice on these forums based on just the information at hand. I do it often - some people may say too often. On the other hand, when you're dealing with friends and their relationships on a face to face basis, it just might be that simply being an ear without offering advice would be better.

Can't tell you the number of times I've been asked by friends "what should I do?" Can't tell you the number of times those very same friends have come back and said "y'know,,, I thought about what you said and I didn't do it." And then asked for the very same advice a month later, or worse yet, either chose to follow it or not, had it not work out and then blamed me for it not working.

So now.. I'm an ear and a shoulder, but I am not Ann Landers - except of course, here - cause I don't know people and they don't know me, and they'll ultimately choose to do what they want anyway - regardless what my piece of advice was - or was not.

juliet

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 30

RE: opinions please? - 12/31/2006 11:52:04 AM

MagiksSlave

Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

What I see, if I am understanding correctly, is a Dom who finds it perfectly okay for his sub to interrupt him as their basic way of communicating, and then when she feels negatively about something, she is to forego her approved basic way of communicating and find another.

Huh.

So an existing pattern of behavior goes unchecked and approved and therefore becomes her habit. This reminds me of parents who let their little ones run rampant in the kitchen during dinner time when they should be sitting at the table instead....only to yell at them and spank them in a restaurant for doing the very same thing that was okay to do at home.

I think they need to change their conversation habits.. I went through the same thing Julia mentioned. I had to realize I would have my opportunity to speak, and that helped me overcome my interrupting habits (being in a large family taught me such bad habits). Master can interrupt whenever he wants, however, but I will always have an opportunity to express myself. I would say this girl's Dom should learn and teach her the art of conversation, rather than reprimand her publically for doing what he has approved her to do.

((claps)) very well said!!! You cant make something alright to do and then when it is inconvenient for you make it not alright!!! It sends mixed messeges and to tell the truth it is the Dom doing wrong here not the sub.. also I cant tell you how sick it makes me to know he would do something perposly that he knew she had issues with!!! I dont know they both seem like red flags to me!!!

My Master and myself often interupt eachother we are also both NYers as someone had pointed out. when this happens Master will eather tell me go ahead and say what I was saying or will just continue what he was going to say and I know to quiet and let him finish this has always worked very well for us, though throughout the months we have been together I cant say we have ever had a fight... though I will get emotional at times Master always remains level headed and able to calm me down.. I find this a very desirable trait in a Master myself!!!

Magik's slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.

-Rodney Atkins-

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 31

RE: opinions please? - 12/31/2006 2:47:02 PM

Noah

Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

i apologize if my first reply came across as hostile, noah...i guess i'm just exhausted and it's late...and mostly i just don't think any of us can ever know the entire situation, as we only ever hear one or two sides of it, so i think we're all doing the best we can.

just wanted to apologize if my earlier post was volatile, as that was not my intent.

No offense taken. Thank you for your gracious apology.

(in reply to hisannabelle)

Post #: 32

RE: opinions please? - 12/31/2006 4:49:15 PM

theRose4U

Posts: 3403
Joined: 8/22/2005
Status: offline

quote:

On the other hand, my ex husband and I tried that little exercise and I almost beat the shit out of him with it. Seems he didn't like letting go of the stick and just talked continuously. Ah well, it works in some cases, I'm sure.

Well sure didn't you get the memo that the dominant is always right no matter what? [gag cough]
**runs before they can yank my membership card for not be a real and twue**

_____________________________

Finding a good sub is like sifting through trail mix. You find a few fruits, a lotta nuts and have to sift to get to the sweet and special ones
drama llama

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 33

RE: opinions please? - 12/31/2006 5:06:31 PM

theRose4U

Posts: 3403
Joined: 8/22/2005
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To answer the OP I'd take a few things into consideration. Did the dominant know about the trigger that threatening a gag would cause? Has the sub been open about the PTSD and did she even know this was a trigger? In his mind was this a flippant remark to get her to be quiet so he could finish a though? Has he shown any remorse or effort to "mend" the damage or is he treating this as "oh she's freaking out and will come around eventually"?

The coarse of action I would recommend is kind of based on the answers to those questions.
If he knew this was a trigger and stepped on it anyway he needs to live with the consequences. Therapy is about trust in your therapist and your partner, if partner trust was violated therapy with him isn't going to be easy or very successful.
If neither knew this was a trigger (I've personally had this happen) then time, talk and mending fences has about a 50/50 shot at success.

As a mentor in this situation stay as neutral as possible. Damage has been done and with trust being such an important part of wiitwd there's a lot of work to be done with the sub regardless of whether the relationship survives or not. This would likely be something she'd carry into the next relationship.

_____________________________

Finding a good sub is like sifting through trail mix. You find a few fruits, a lotta nuts and have to sift to get to the sweet and special ones
drama llama

(in reply to theRose4U)

Post #: 34

RE: opinions please? - 1/1/2007 1:08:18 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: theRose4U

quote:

On the other hand, my ex husband and I tried that little exercise and I almost beat the shit out of him with it. Seems he didn't like letting go of the stick and just talked continuously. Ah well, it works in some cases, I'm sure.

Well sure didn't you get the memo that the dominant is always right no matter what? [gag cough]
**runs before they can yank my membership card for not be a real and twue**

My ex husband was not dominant.

(in reply to theRose4U)

Post #: 35

RE: opinions please? - 1/1/2007 7:09:58 PM

mellian

Posts: 211
Joined: 9/6/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

Well, not to be flippant, but this one is fairly easy: therapy. Really. If both are running on childhood triggers in such a way as to form a negative feedback loop, therapy is really the best solution in my opinion.

Master Fire

Like she said.

-mellian

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(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

Post #: 36

RE: opinions please? - 1/1/2007 7:44:46 PM

Phoenix2raven

Posts: 347
Joined: 10/14/2006
Status: offline

julietsierra, you summed up the fine lines of being a mentor quite well! it is truly about not giving advice, just listening. sometimes i come across something i can't wrap my mind around, not sure what to say, and forums like this are good for getting perspective. i hope they work it out, too. *gentle smiles*

(in reply to julietsierra)

Post #: 37

RE: opinions please? - 1/2/2007 6:28:27 AM

LeatherBentOne

Posts: 469
Joined: 9/27/2005
Status: offline

It's called lack of "impulse control," and the Dominant needs to get some and train the submissive to do the same. Blurting out without thinking and talking over the other is cause for a communication disaster. Practicing to not interrupt is the key but before one can accomplish that, one must have impulse control. Discretionary silence is the only way to break this negative feedback loop of sparking each other on in circular conversation that leads to nowhere but hurt feels, anger, an argument and displaced resentment.

Best of luck.

(in reply to Phoenix2raven)

Post #: 38

RE: opinions please? - 1/2/2007 8:20:14 AM

afeathr

Posts: 248
Joined: 6/1/2006
From: Southern California
Status: offline

<trying to look at the situation from all sides>

Knowing someone has a "trigger" to a statement or event, and remembering that in the heat of the moment are two different things. It may very well be (at least this is how it sounds) that the Dom was attempting to get a point across that would have ended the situation quickly and quietly and the sub wouldn't be quiet long enough to let that happen (this happened to me, recently, so I have experience in that sort of thing). It sounds, to me, like the Dom was frustrated, and used the first thing that leapt into his head to quiet the sub--it worked but now she is traumatized.

IMHO--she needs to worry less about his statement and worry more about how to get things back on track in the relationship. Though therapy may help her situation (abuse issues) I don't see that as an end-all-beat-all solution in this case. The two of them need to sit down and communicate about how they are going to deal with emotionally-charged issues. No one is perfect, we all know that, but one can always strive to improve.

My advice to the sub would be: go to your Dom and communicate your feelings. Staying upset about what he said (knowing that he was angry and was looking for a way to quiet her), and not speaking to him because of it is not going to resolve the issue--especially if it keeps her from communicating her feelings to him. He *needs* to know how she feels. Her "trigger" only remains so if she feels that the threat will be affected on her person in real time. If the Dom didn't do what he threatened, then she should take that as a way to attempt to overcome her fear (because fear is what causes triggers). Tell her that that statement was her "fear factor" and that she can now attempt to move beyond it by communicating openly about how it made her feel--allowing the feeling to disappate--and realizing that what she fears will not come about in her current situation. I would also encourage her to seek out a book/seminar on active listening (it really *does* work, but practice is necessary) and to use this situation as a learning tool in the relationship, and in life. Just because her Dom *allows* her to interrupt during conversation doesn't mean that it's right. I agree with others that said their pattern of communication needs to change. Constantly interrupting each other only leads to problems (I am not pointing fingers at anyone but myself here--I have this problem myself).

I agree that the Dom may have gone over the top on his statement, but it seems that He may have felt backed into a corner and looked for the first thing that would stop the madness. That doesn't change that his approach was wrong, and if you can advise him (not likely, but *if*) the active listening concept would work well for him as well. Though He is "in charge" of the relationship, both sides should be heard then let Him make the final decision.

In the end-- if she feels that this is something that she cannot overcome she needs to communicate that openly and move on. Again, therapy may work for her, but she has to *want* to get beyond the issue. In my mind, anyone that wants to, can, without "professional" help.

_____________________________

afeathr

-Going where the wind blows me...

(in reply to Phoenix2raven)

Post #: 39

RE: opinions please? - 1/2/2007 2:18:41 PM

MistressNoName

Posts: 664
Joined: 10/26/2006
Status: offline

To OP:

I'm going to reply to this a few ways. First to say that ownedgirlie's first response was the best I've read on this thread in terms of practical, nuts and bolts advice. A Dom(me) needs to decide what type of behavior is acceptable and what is not...and if he accepts her interruptions when things are cool, he needs to be willing and able to accept it when things are not so cool.

Second, therapy might not be a bad idea, but my only word of caution is that if therapy is entered into it should not be set up as if it's just the poor, "trigger-susceptible" sub who needs to get fixed and then all will be right with the world. Both parties need to take a good hard look at their issues. And they should set out to enlist a Kink-Aware Professional. (check out this website for guidance: http://www.ncsfreedom.org/kap)

Third, and perhaps most difficult thing to consider, if this sub is too afraid or so uncomfortable to go to her Dom for some honest and open communication, whether with the aid of a talking stick or not, there's a problem here...bigger than either of you may realize. I say that b/c when I was subbing, I was onced owned by a Master with whom it became increasingly difficult for me to communicate. It got to the point where I had to begin taking notes of the things he said, just so I would be certain that he did say a thing before he would turn around and deny it. The communication, in short, became borderline abusive and I then knew I had to get out of that situation.

Being the head of a household is a huge responsibility that carries with it the responsibility of being truthful with oneself and being open to asking for help when one needs it and being willing to learn and grow from one's mistakes. But first, that Top has to be able to admit that He/She is actually capable of making mistakes. If this DIQ does not have that ability, perhaps it may be time for the siq to run for the hills. Just my not-so-humble-opinion.

All the best,

MNN

(in reply to afeathr)

Post #: 40

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