RE: How do you feel about Gor?

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: How do you feel about Gor?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Ask a Mistress >> RE: How do you feel about Gor?

Page: << < prev 5 6 [7] 8 9 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/2/2007 8:53:38 PM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline

So the Goreans aren't Democrats? Explains why they didn't respond more enthusiastically to my Victory 2006 fund pitch.

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 1/2/2007 8:57:25 PM >

(in reply to gooddogbenji)

Profile

Post #: 121

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/2/2007 9:00:05 PM

Nosathro

Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline

Tal LotusSong

As far as I know only two person, one of them being myself have identified themselves as Gorean, hardly what anyone would call an Invasion. Heck we did not even bring in one Siege Tower. For your information current military doctrine requires an invading force ratio of 20 attackers to 1 defender. Further, the 3rd person speech has been in use for some time by many non Gorean Masters and Mistresses. One more thing, the use of CAPS to reflect dominance has also been in use in many BDSM chat rooms not just Gor. Now you think on that.

I wish you well

Nosathro

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

Tal LotusSong

I am going to point out to you that speech restriction and objectification have long been pratices in training and punishming slaves/sub. You don't have to Gorean/Old Guard/etc. There are several thread in Collarme on these subjects.

It is not my intention to start any flames with you but to be honest, you threads on these subject have been disrespectful to say the least. Alright you don't like Gor, many don't, I know people who don't like Renaissance Faires either but I still attend them. No one is forcing you to read these threads or trying to convert you. You can at least be polite to others here.

I wish you well

Nosathro

now think a bit. Here it is, the Ask a Mistress forum and one Mistress decides to ask her peers what they think about Gor. And look what we get- a Gorean invasion. Preceded by a female presenting a behavior that would most certainly seen with disdain in this environment, yet she chose to inflict it on us. Goreans don't have to read these threads either. But being a Mistress..the Ask a Mistress forum does tend to catch my eye.

It would have been more appropriate to keep Gorean behaviors in the proper forum. I won't go into a Gorean forum and demand that that all "bad bitchboys" kneel before every female there or TYPE IN ALL CAPS TO REFLECT DOMINANCE. That's not the place. Just use common sense.

_____________________________

"The love of a slave girl is the deepest and most profound love that any woman can give a man. Love makes a woman a man's slave, and the wholeness of that love requires that she be, in truth, his slave." Magicians of Gor, page 31

(in reply to LotusSong)

Profile

Post #: 122

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/2/2007 9:18:33 PM

Nosathro

Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline

greeting cjenny

If I may, the use of third person speech has been around for centuries and in different cultuals. A name given to a person was considered very private and in some cases a privilage. In the BDSM Lifestyle in training a slave by a Master or Mistress, a slave may not use their name, or pronouns such as "I" or "me", so a slave may only say "girl" or "boy" which ever the case maybe. The purpose of this is make the slave aware of their status, that they are owned and their status as a slave. It has also been used as a punishment. There are threads on this topic and some have stated it is very effective. As to how far in every day life a person has used varies. I hope this has helped.

I wish you well

Nosathro

quote:

ORIGINAL: cjenny

fyreredsub,
I am curious about the third person angle. Is it used in every day life? Is the clerk at a store asked 'Would you help this girl find the dairy section?'. I am sincerely asking not mocking. If it is not used consistently in the 'outside world' then isn't that usage a form of role playing?
To the OP, I read about 8 of the books at a teenager then realised I couldn't continue because the style of writing was so so awful. Someone mentioned L Ron Hubbard.. his sci-fi series was just as poorly written IMO. It is very hard for me to respect the author when it is poorly laid out in book after book after book. Yes I admit that I am a bit of a snob when it comes to the written word.

(in reply to cjenny)

Profile

Post #: 123

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/2/2007 9:40:26 PM

Nosathro

Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline

Tal Lashra

FYI. If you read the books, no female slave was referred to as a "Beast". The only word I do recall use to discribe a female slave is "Wench" a Middle English word..meaning "woman". However, a male slave, owned by a Free Woman was named "Bosk" the Gorean word for "Cow" by the Free Woman.

Also there are many Free Women in the books many have achieved professions and leadership roles of which I have already stated.

I wish you well

Nosathro

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra

I think its a badly written fantasy series that people have turned into a cult. A woman is worth just as much as a man. Women can do just about anything a man can which alot of men(and some women) find threatening.

Not all women are naturally submissive and most don't want to be a slave. I know I'd never be submissive nor anyones slave, I'm far to dominant for that. So that tosses their" all women will submit to men naturally" right out the window.

I find their belief that women are "beasts" to be disturbing. But hey if their girls like being called beasts, let them knock themselves out enjoying it. Personally it shows lack of respect, but then again maybe they enjoy that.

Most sub males are just as macho as a the dominant guy, you can rarely tell them apart. I will take a sub male over a gorean male anyday. The sub male is being true to his nature, the gorean is doing what he is forced to do by their society. I've had many gorean masters request that I dominant them but had to keep it quiet less they loose respect from their peers. That in itself shows how much the "masters" are controlled. LOL Fear rules them and submales are free to be themselves.

As I've said many times. Equal Rights For Men and Women is the only way to go.

~Lashra

(in reply to Lashra)

Profile

Post #: 124

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/2/2007 10:12:14 PM

RobertCloud

Posts: 2959
Joined: 6/28/2006
Status: offline

I have kept my thoughts to myself on this topic for quite some time. However, I think it is time I speak out.
Having spent four years as a Gorean of the Red Savage tribes and watching what actually goes on both in the online world and in the realtime world I have seen things that made me decide that my beliefs and Gorean philosophy did not fit with that of the majority of those that call themselves Gorean.

The concepts behind the ORIGINAL ideals when Gor began as a lifestyle were beautiful. To incorporate the Philosophy and Beauty of the Gorean Novels into a Master/slave formatted relationship with the addition of honor and truth. Even the salutation of Wind, Steel and Honor were added, which were not from the books but to show the ideals of the new lifestyle.
It was still some roleplay online, but the real life portion of it began to develop around the portions that could be brought into the real life with ease and safety, and remain safe, and sane even if it went into consensual nonconsent (meaning that the slaves consented to give up their freedoms and limits entirely to their masters).

The devotion of a slave to learn the positions, the serves, the dances in real life as well as to be able to describe them in a textual format to entice anyone that might see them was wonderful and beautiful.

But something went wrong.

You see, we are human, and just like in the books the word and concept of HONOR did not exist, in the lifestyle it became a joke. People would say Wind, Steel and Honor then in their very next action enter another room and plot in their roleplay forums to commit treason, deceit, lies, and other deeds of mayhem. They forgot that there are people on the other side of the computer screen and the roleplay became more important than the lives of the people involved.

It became more rewarding and you gained more praise by how many people you could lie to and deceive and the bigger the lies the better. Even slaves got in on the practice, lying about how their former masters treated them both online and in realtime. Even more so than in other types of relationships because this became part of the Gorean Game.

In no other form of relationship of any type have I seen the types of treachery that I have seen in Gor. I have seen in Gor where one slave would be collared to several Masters under different names and perhaps all of them but maybe one knows about this and those that know are all playing a game against the one that does not to torment that one.

They don't care that they share ownership as long as the name that the slave uses is different in each case. Online after all is only a game and each new name is a different character.

And they propagate their lies not only to each other but when they talk to those on the outside. They do not tell you that half the things that the Goreans do in their roleplay are not even in the books. Third person speech for example is only used as a form of punishment by most groups and there is only one group in the books that uses it regularly and yet almost all Gorean groups make it a regular form of practice. Yet, in the books that is only a couple of books that it is used.
The idea of using silks to tell the level of a kajira is only used in one book and only by one trainer and it is not used anywhere else in the books and white silks ALWAYS refer to virgins. So, in my eyes if the girl is not a virgin she should not be wearing white silks.
Red silks refer to a girl that is NOT a virgin, where most Goreans refer to red silks as what the books refer to as a pleasure slave.
There are positions that are used in the Gorean groups that are never found in the books, words in languages that are never found in the books. The way Free Women act in most Gorean Groups would have gotten them collared if they were truly on the planet of Gor.
A Free Woman NEVER talks back to a Free Man, yet you see it all the time, and so much more.

All in all, the Gorean Lifestyle has left the books so far behind that it does not even closely resemble the books at all. When you go to join the groups you might as well throw your books away and just learn what the group wants to teach you the way they want it done, and most of all expect to be lied to and deceived because the concept of Honor does not exist.

I may still be Red Savage in my heart, but I will never join a Gorean Group online or realtime.

The scariest part is that now there are actual cities that are popping up where everyone in them are Gorean and they are living the lifestyle for real. Even the children are being involved in it. Yes, I have been approached by a group that asked me how to torture a woman in such a way as to make her torture her own daughter. Her daughter was only 14. I could not get enough information or I would have reported this person to the authorities. They claimed the town was in Russia, but the English was too good, I do not believe it is in Russia, I think it is someplace out west, in the US.

So personally, when someone from Gor approaches you, I would say. Walk away.

(in reply to Nosathro)

Profile

Post #: 125

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/2/2007 10:17:10 PM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

Tal Lashra

FYI. If you read the books, no female slave was referred to as a "Beast". The only word I do recall use to discribe a female slave is "Wench" a Middle English word..meaning "woman". However, a male slave, owned by a Free Woman was named "Bosk" the Gorean word for "Cow" by the Free Woman.

I may be wrong here as it's been several years since I read it, but I believe in Beasts of Gor that slave girls were considered one of the 'beasts' of Gor. I distinctly recall the Kurii being another one of the Beasts of Gor. I'll have to get my copy out tonight and double check, but I'm about 75% certain that I'm correct on this.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to Nosathro)

Profile

Post #: 126

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/2/2007 10:19:07 PM

RobertCloud

Posts: 2959
Joined: 6/28/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

Tal Lashra

FYI. If you read the books, no female slave was referred to as a "Beast". The only word I do recall use to discribe a female slave is "Wench" a Middle English word..meaning "woman". However, a male slave, owned by a Free Woman was named "Bosk" the Gorean word for "Cow" by the Free Woman.

Also there are many Free Women in the books many have achieved professions and leadership roles of which I have already stated.

I wish you well

Nosathro

This is not true... in the books female slaves are referred to as beasts, sluts, whores, chattel, and more.

(in reply to Nosathro)

Profile

Post #: 127

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/2/2007 10:35:25 PM

Emperor1956

Posts: 2370
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline

I just can't take it anymore.

Najakcharmer, the gentleman in question is John Frederick Lange, not "Lang". He teaches Philosophy at Queens College, in Flushing, NY (which is not quite the same as either CUNY or CCNY, both schools to which his devotees assign his contract, by the way. It is absolutely unrelated, except by rough geography, to NYU).

He currently teaches a few classes a year. He was born in 1931, and I believe his age accounts for his reduced teaching schedule. His work in Philosophy has been unremarkable (although he's reputed to be a good teacher). His academic writing is hardly noteworthy. My limited use subscription to Books in Print discloses one in-print volume by him, not as author but as co-editor, published in 1969. Any mildly competent reader of his books will discover that he is a fairly pedestrian and stultified writer, which is also evidenced by this current short exemplar.

News of his supposed "academic papers" about B/D/S/M are new to me -- and I would VERY MUCH like to read one. It seems pretty unlikely they could be hidden away in "university libraries" and not make their way on the Web. I am skeptical that John Frederick Lange ever wrote a word about B/D/S/M except as some may glean from the "Gor" stories as he has very carefully distanced his academic and family life from his "life" as the writer of the Gor novels. He used to be a regular at east coast science fiction "cons" but in the past 10 years his appearances have dwindled. There is absolutely no evidence of his being one whit interested in the world of B/D/S/M, D/s or anything else related to these message boards.

quote:

Tal Najakcharmer

Dr. Lang academic work to the best of my knowledge is not available on any website. I do believe they are only available at the University Library. You may want to do a search either John Lang or John Norman.

I wish you well

Nosathro

E.

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to Nosathro)

Profile

Post #: 128

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/2/2007 10:39:13 PM

SweetDommes

Posts: 3313
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline

I'm glad I'm not the only one who caught that.

In addition, isn't there a "she-sleen" position that is one of the gorean slave positions - a sleen being a beast of some sort ... putting the slave in such a position ensuring that she must remain, as a beast, on four 'feet' rather than being allowed to use her hands for anything ...

(in reply to RobertCloud)

Profile

Post #: 129

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/2/2007 11:01:24 PM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

Gor scares me for one simple reason - according to the books there is no need for the woman to consent. I can understand - to a degree - the mentality of "I consented to my slavery, now I may never leave" but I can not understand "I threw a collar around this chick, now she's mine and it really doesn't matter what she didn't want to be my slave." I understand that most of the Gorean men do not do this in reality, but it troubles me all the same.

Now, do I have a problem with Goreans? No, not really unless they are dealing with underage person or trying to teach children that all women are inferior and that you can collar whatever woman you want. But that will come around to bite their children in the butt when they go out into the world. I have a problem with individual Goreans. Free woman who think their veils mean they get a free pass to be bitches to non-Gorean subs/slaves, Gorean men who treat submissive men like crap, and Gorean slaves who try to call me sister. I don't have problem with what you are doing but don't call me "sis" unless you are actually my friend. Chances are - you aren't.

I view it much like I view any religion. I don't have a problem with the religion as a whole, but I do have a problem with the particular people who attempt to convert me, tell me I'm going to hell or that I'm living in sin. Thanks, already got the info - please move on. I also have a respect for many of the people here who are Gorean - Nosathro in particular. I don't always agree with them but that happens with anyone on the forums, Gorean or not.

Now what I really want to know is why the OP posted in the Gorean forums being critical of Gor, a post that was evidently bad enough that is was yanked. That strikes me as rather rude and childish.

My humble two cents - Take it for what it's worth.

Edited to clarify

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 1/2/2007 11:25:12 PM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to SweetDommes)

Profile

Post #: 130

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/2/2007 11:18:04 PM

RobertCloud

Posts: 2959
Joined: 6/28/2006
Status: offline

Once a girl has consented to be a Gorean slave and been collared she had given up all the rights to her body. This is not just a Gorean concept however. This is a Master/slave concept as well. A slave in many relationships does not have the right to deny her Master access to her body at anytime he wants it and anywhere. She belongs to him, she is his property. It is part of what they want between them, it is part of the commitment that is shared and enjoyed between them. To many it is scary, but to them it is sacred.

This does not mean that the Master will take advantage of this at every opportunity. If he is worth anything he will pay attention to her moods and will judge the timing. For any Master knows that a good slave is a happy slave and forcing her to do something at a time that is inconvenient or painful for her, or perhaps her emotional state is not right due to stress or situations in her life then he is harming the trust she has in him to nurture her and keep her safe and secure. Yes, he has the right, but to exercise that right would be a misuse of his power and therefore cause more harm than good. Instead he would pull her into his arms and cuddle and help ease her stresses.

All of these things should be discussed before a slave chooses to beg for her collar. She needs to know what kind of man she is choosing to serve. For a proper slave should not ever beg for release, she can ask, but she will abide by her Master's decision. For she gave up her choice when she begged his collar. Yet, a proper Master would not keep a slave that does not want to stay either, he may make her wait a time period to make certain it is not an emotional outburst but if after that time period she still wishes to go he will grant her her request.

There are all kinds of intricacies in the Master/slave relationship. Whether they are inside of Gor or outside. Goreans are different in many of the rituals and things that they do, but the fact that the slave is to be ready to be used by the Master at any time is universal. The only difference may be that in Gor, the Gorean Master may not pay as much attention to the slave's needs and emotions as a Master on the outside of Gor would/should.

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Profile

Post #: 131

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/2/2007 11:27:54 PM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

Not sure if you were responding to me or using the fast reply but when I said "there isn't a need to consent" I mean to her slavery. From what I've read of others posts about the books and experiences with others online, according to the books there is no need for a woman to consent to her collar. That disturbs me greatly as any lifestyle defining book that advocates nonconsentual slavery... Well, for the sake of politeness I'll just say it troubles me greatly.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to RobertCloud)

Profile

Post #: 132

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/3/2007 6:38:10 AM

KaramelGoddess

Posts: 404
Joined: 6/20/2006
Status: offline

RobertCloud is right...

I own My online boy, but he begged for the collar, he wanted it, he desired it, he consented to it...and it took us 2 years to get to that stage..LOL. It has been well worth it.

~Kara

_____________________________

"Never eat more than you can lift." ~ Miss Piggy

(in reply to RobertCloud)

Profile

Post #: 133

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/3/2007 6:58:57 AM

fyreredsub

Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline

Greetings Najak,

Thank you for the explanation.

Wishing you well

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

(in reply to KaramelGoddess)

Profile

Post #: 134

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/3/2007 7:03:28 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

Gor scares me for one simple reason - according to the books there is no need for the woman to consent. I can understand - to a degree - the mentality of "I consented to my slavery, now I may never leave" but I can not understand "I threw a collar around this chick, now she's mine and it really doesn't matter what she didn't want to be my slave." I understand that most of the Gorean men do not do this in reality, but it troubles me all the same.

This is a pretty standard idea in a lot of fiction that we might call SM or erotica or what have you that turns you on. It happens to any group (sex, race, age, nationality, etc), some more than others, and the issue of consent is often irrevelant in fiction.

That's sort of the role of fiction: provide us with outlets we can't live out in our lives. An escape from our realities.

What should make someone pause is when the line between fiction and reality get crossed and applied to people who are not consenting to play out the ideas in the fiction. So someone who says "all women are" or "all men all" (replace men/women with other words for how wide the idea can go) distrubs me when they say it to everyone. I am most concerned though when they act on those ideas with people who have not consented.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Profile

Post #: 135

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/3/2007 7:24:14 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

Welllll, after all that catching up with this thread I have only two things to say.

1) I agree with Ron, I miss IB.

2) Welcome back benji!!!!!!!!!!!!

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Profile

Post #: 136

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/3/2007 8:43:19 AM

pinkkeith

Posts: 605
Joined: 11/26/2006
From: Illinois
Status: offline

Well, being a submissive man, I don't really care for the Gor line of books. I do wonder why there isn't a series of books or even a book that is based on gynarchy and matriarchy.

< Message edited by pinkkeith -- 1/3/2007 9:09:39 AM >

(in reply to mellian)

Profile

Post #: 137

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/3/2007 9:06:01 AM

LadySashayy

Posts: 26
Joined: 12/18/2006
Status: offline

I'm with pinkkeith. As a Dominant woman, Gorean ideas leave me cold. But then, I'm also not a practitioner of the many kinds of pomp and ritual that are a big part of BDSM for many. And, as TammyJo has eloquently stated, the idea of women as chattel without rights, collared or uncollared, disturbs me greatly. Too much of Gorean culture smacks of cultism to me.

< Message edited by LadySashayy -- 1/3/2007 9:08:50 AM >

(in reply to pinkkeith)

Profile

Post #: 138

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/3/2007 9:31:30 AM

kinkiminx

Posts: 73
Joined: 10/5/2005
From: Brighton, Sussex, UK
Status: offline

Not to mention trying to dictate who is Dom and who is sub, and then assuming that all subs are a sub, not, as many may be, an independant individual until they are his/her sub;

It's an entire way of life, based on a fictional story.

As long as I can choose to do things the way I find works for me instead,

Each to their own.

(in reply to KaramelGoddess)

Profile

Post #: 139

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/3/2007 9:42:00 AM

kinkiminx

Posts: 73
Joined: 10/5/2005
From: Brighton, Sussex, UK
Status: offline

I expect people practice Gorean D/s in different ways in real life, but I was under the impression the problem was in the concept in the books; consent isn't required from the woman, and any woman is fresh pickings to take as a slave.

(in reply to RobertCloud)

Profile

Post #: 140