A maso in the making?

A maso in the making? (Full Version)

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Kalira -> A maso in the making? (1/3/2007 10:16:45 AM)
I was talking with my teenager this morning about the new Prime Time episode Basic Instincts that is airing tonight. Apparantly, from what I can tell from the commercials, they are putting the question to both men and women 'would you send an electrical current through someone if you were told to do so' ( I find this highly amusing if the truth be known ) Anyway, I asked my teenager this morning if they were to place her and I in seperate rooms and then offer her the choice of taking a shock herself or giving me one, which would she choose. LOL. The little imp told me she would choose herself...not because she does not want to hurt me but because she wants to know what it feels like. [&:][8\|] 13 going on wayyyyyyyyyyyy too old for me [:o]

missturbation -> RE: A maso in the making? (1/3/2007 10:31:35 AM)
I just asked my 14 year old and she said she would shock me - a domme in the making? lol [:D]

Kalira -> RE: A maso in the making? (1/3/2007 10:36:41 AM)
LMAO Misst....that is too funny.

Manawyddan -> RE: A maso in the making? (1/6/2007 5:37:55 AM)
I dread being told something like that by my daughter. Well, I have another decade to go.

bandit25 -> RE: A maso in the making? (1/6/2007 6:17:05 AM)
I didn't see that, but I am sure my son would pick me and my daughter, well, come to think of it, she'd prolly pick me too!

gypsygrl -> RE: A maso in the making? (1/6/2007 7:37:43 AM)
Yeah, I'm pretty sure my youngest would choose himself and for the same reason. But, I wouldn't ask him because he's kind of sensitive and its the kind of thought that could make a kid like him kind of nutty. He's a lot younger than 13. :)

happypervert -> RE: A maso in the making? (1/6/2007 9:40:00 AM)
quote: they are putting the question to both men and women 'would you send an electrical current through someone if you were told to do so' ( I find this highly amusing if the truth be known ) This sounds just like the Milgram Experiments, and most folks don't find them amusing at all because: "Milgram's experiment raised questions about the ethics of scientific experimentation because of the extreme emotional stress suffered by the participants." That quote taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

JohnWarren -> RE: A maso in the making? (1/6/2007 9:50:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: happypervert "Milgram's experiment raised questions about the ethics of scientific experimentation because of the extreme emotional stress suffered by the participants." However, the main shocker was that upper class "good people" in the USA were capable of killing another simply because someone in authority told them to do so. It was a wake up call to those who, looking at the Nazis, said proudly "It can't happen here." Milgram proved that it could happen here and sadly the Bush administration has made it happen. Good Americans torture and kill people because they are told it is all right.

NorthernGent -> RE: A maso in the making? (1/6/2007 10:48:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JohnWarren quote: ORIGINAL: happypervert However, the main shocker was that upper class "good people" in the USA were capable of killing another simply because someone in authority told them to do so. It was a wake up call to those who, looking at the Nazis, said proudly "It can't happen here." Milgram proved that it could happen here and sadly the Bush administration has made it happen. Good Americans torture and kill people because they are told it is all right. The Germans were/are no more inherently racist than the rest of us. A feature of centralised government is they can mobilise huge numbers of men and machinery to achieve wide-ranging objectives. When the wrong people have too much power the objectives aren't necessarily civilised.

gypsygrl -> RE: A maso in the making? (1/6/2007 11:18:02 AM)
Right. Milgram wasn't the only one to do scary things in the name of science. At the time he was doing his stuff, there were alot of problems with social science and the kinds of experiments it conducted. Some have argued (and I tend to agree) that the whole enterprise is ethically flawed. Since then, protocols have been put into place and review boards established to assure that research on human subjects is conducted ethically. Before any research design is approved, provisions must be made for getting the informed consent of the participants/subjects. I wonder why academic researchers and social scientists are under different ethical constraints than the mass media.

Quivver -> RE: A maso in the making? (1/6/2007 2:36:33 PM)
I just asked the 13 year old. He took the shock for me, when I asked ~why~ he chose that he said cause I was old and would probably die.................. Grrrrrrrrrr

soulKnife -> RE: A maso in the making? (1/6/2007 2:48:02 PM)
bah to participant's rights getting in the way of experimentation! just joking

Emperor1956 -> RE: A maso in the making? (1/6/2007 2:49:05 PM)
JohnW, and all: People always talk about Milgram, but few have really looked at his work. There is much more to the Milgram experiments. While it surprised many that good old middle class, white Americans c. 1965 (John, they weren't very "upper class" -- drawn from the working communities around Yale) would shock some unknown person into unconciousness because they were told "you must finish the experiment" by a lab-coat wearing "scientist", there were some key additional findings: Proximity to the victim made a huge difference. If the subject receiving the shocks was in another location and the "experimenter" (the actual subject, as both the "victim" and the "scientist" were paid actors) only heard them, the experimenter was much more likely to shock into the danger zone. Put a window between experimenter and victim (so that the experimenter could see and hear the results of the shock), and the experimenter stopped sooner. Put them in the same room, even less progression and finally, make the experimenter touch the victim to administer the shock, and the experiment rarely got beyond the first steps of shock intensity. Also, Milgram suggested that certain types of people were far more resistant to continuing the experiment. This served as a basis for later experiments involving damage to unknown, distant victims, where it was shown that people with families made more careful decisions, and when their families were in close proximity, the decisions were even more careful. There is an excellent film featuring Milgram that is now widely available (for years it was suppressed). Also, of course, the famous later Stanford experiments in which 1/2 of a class were made "prison guards", with fairly horrific effect. And those who posted re: the need to run these sorts of experiments past an IRB (Institutional Review Board) for ethical purposes are right -- I'd like to think it is because we've learned something in 40+ years about the ethics of education and research. E. Edited to add: I may not have made it clear, but the Milgram experiments had NOTHING to do with masochism or sadism.

Noah -> RE: A maso in the making? (1/6/2007 4:31:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Emperor1956 Edited to add: I may not have made it clear, but the Milgram experiments had NOTHING to do with masochism or sadism. I'm not taking issue. Just curious about the intended meaning there. It would seem hard to hold in a very broad sense that any experiments featuring the perception of administering pain were experiments that had nothing whatever to do with sadism, insofar as sadism is expressed in the willing administration of pain. Are you saying that sadists and masochists were somehow filtered out of the subject pool (and the experimenter "pool," for that matter)? Are you saying that those posible variables were controlled for in some other way? Since there are sadists in the general population it wouldn't seem kosher to filter them out here and then draw general conclusions. To a non-scientist like me it seems a daunting thing to control this issue right out of play. Are you saying fairly simply that the experiments were not designed to investigate masochism or sadism and so just did not intentionally countenance these phenomena one way or the other? Or are you saying something else that went right over my head? I'd be grateful for some clarification.

Siona -> RE: A maso in the making? (1/6/2007 4:47:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Quivver I just asked the 13 year old. He took the shock for me, when I asked ~why~ he chose that he said cause I was old and would probably die.................. Grrrrrrrrrr [/quote Awww Mom! He loves ya, he doesn't want ya to kick off on him!

Siona -> RE: A maso in the making? (1/6/2007 4:48:41 PM)
If I asked my youngest one, he'd choose to experience it himself. With him, the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree. With my two oldest ones, they'd pick me...those fruits fell off the "other" tree.

sophia37 -> RE: A maso in the making? (1/6/2007 4:49:14 PM)
My 16 year old would shock me for sure. He does it all the time as a matter of fact. He just hasnt used electricity as of yet, to do it with. lol

SusanofO -> RE: A maso in the making? (1/6/2007 6:21:54 PM)
I thought the Milgram experiement was more about the issue of "group-think" pervading people's thinking due to being given a command from what they consider a legitimate authority figure, more than anything else. The experiement did involve shocking innocent people, but could have just as easily involved a less painful task as far as people being told what to do to anyone else, as long as it was a perceived emotional challenge for them. Te experiment was designed to measure how far poeple will go in response to obeying perceived authority figures. Will they violate their own moral values to obey am order? It was pretty scary, in a way. The people with little value system already formed were the most susceptible to this type of mind control. Hitler gaining the following he did is an example of how this experiment could play out in a real-life, global sense, I think. Of course, I think "group-think" can be evident in things like mob behavior in a disaster, too - as in after Hurricane Katrina when the folks at the auditorium were so upset, they became angry their needs were ignored by the Feds (who were desperately under-prepared for the Hurricane fallout), and there was a very real danger of mob violence, for example) - people wanted to obey the authority, but authority was not coming through - this is group think when "authority goes wrong", and people rebel, etc. I think). That Katrina example might not have been about authority directly, or people obeying it (more like disobeying it) - but I think some of the things that experiment said can be extrapolated to lots of "group behavior" situations, and people's reactions to stress in general. That's what I always thought they were about. In answer to the original question, I'd rather be the "shockee" than the "shocker". - Susan

smirkingsheep -> RE: A maso in the making? (1/6/2007 10:13:21 PM)
Reading this posts of reactions from parents, I wonder what my mother must think of me. But I keep forgetting I'm not 14 anymore. [8\|]

Emperor1956 -> RE: A maso in the making? (1/7/2007 3:33:04 PM)
Noah (and anyone else still listening): quote: ORIGINAL: Emperor1956 Edited to add: I may not have made it clear, but the Milgram experiments had NOTHING to do with masochism or sadism. Noah: I'm not taking issue. Just curious about the intended meaning there. It would seem hard to hold in a very broad sense that any experiments featuring the perception of administering pain were experiments that had nothing whatever to do with sadism, insofar as sadism is expressed in the willing administration of pain. Are you saying that sadists and masochists were somehow filtered out of the subject pool (and the experimenter "pool," for that matter)? Are you saying that those posible variables were controlled for in some other way? Since there are sadists in the general population it wouldn't seem kosher to filter them out here and then draw general conclusions. To a non-scientist like me it seems a daunting thing to control this issue right out of play. Are you saying fairly simply that the experiments were not designed to investigate masochism or sadism and so just did not intentionally countenance these phenomena one way or the other? Or are you saying something else that went right over my head? I'd be grateful for some clarification. I'm saying what you said highlighted above. Precisely. And I agree with your thoughts as well. In fact I believe that in finding his test subjects, Milgram did not ask any screening questions that would identify sadists, masochists, or for that matter foot fetishists, voyeurs or frottageurs. Why did I say it? What I was reacting to were the many posts in this thread that essentially say "Oh my [insert teen age age here] son/daughter would shock me/would not shock me/would take the shock for me and therefore he/she is a sadist/masochist/neutral." In fact, behavior in the circumstances posed in this thread says nothing about someone's orientation or lack of orientation. While it is cute to talk about our children as maso/sado/Dom/sub, in fact seriously ascribing those characteristics based on a reality TV show model makes me squirm. E.

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