When do the new uk laws come in to force? (Full Version)

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gottatryit24 -> When do the new uk laws come in to force? (1/5/2007 1:49:44 AM)

The ones about it being illegal to view certain websites. Am I still to believe it has to go through parliment yet?



LadyEllen -> RE: When do the new uk laws come in to force? (1/5/2007 1:59:05 AM)

check out the Backlash site (campaign against this crazy law) - Google it as I dont have it available sorry!

I work with the police here as a part time adviser; I have asked my contacts multiple times for guidance on how such a law would be enforced and so far have had no answer.

As soon as I do have an answer, then I shall be posting whatever guidance I receive here.

E



sleazy -> RE: When do the new uk laws come in to force? (1/5/2007 2:10:52 AM)

I understand it is yet to go before parliament, and is still techinically at the "consultation" stage. I suspect like the vast majority of this governments legislation it will be so vague as to be un-enforcable most of the time.  I agree that Backlash http://www.backlash-uk.org.uk/ seems to be the best source of info at the moment.



meatcleaver -> RE: When do the new uk laws come in to force? (1/5/2007 3:06:21 AM)

No need to worry about it, it will just be another Blair law everyone will ignore.



sleazy -> RE: When do the new uk laws come in to force? (1/5/2007 3:29:59 AM)

I personally would expect a period of zealous attempts at enforcement so it can be shown how many sick, dangerous, violent perverts are being kept off the streets, then it may be ignored until either a) somebody finds a new way to use the law (anti-terror used against somebody reading a list of names), or b) somebody makes a specific complaint about somebody else, even if there is no substance it will use resources that could be better used elsewhere and have a damaging effect on the person complained about

Ill concived, silly, knee jerk legislation like this is why adults wont help at school, lead youth groups, or even become sunday school teachers.

Did you know that as a result of another of Tony's "for the good of society" laws you can be imprisoned as a result of acts that are not in themselves illegal?



missturbation -> RE: When do the new uk laws come in to force? (1/5/2007 4:08:47 AM)

As i understand it from my sources you will be prosecuted for having any material which shows what the goverment class as violent porn. Even private photos which show handcuffs, whips, spankings will fall into this category.
A dom will be prosecuted for anything classed as violent conduct, charged with assault. The sub will be charged with aiding and abetting. The issue of consent will not be admissable in court.
How enforcable this law will actually turn out to be i don't know.



sleazy -> RE: When do the new uk laws come in to force? (1/5/2007 4:22:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
A dom will be prosecuted for anything classed as violent conduct, charged with assault. The sub will be charged with aiding and abetting. The issue of consent will not be admissable in court.
How enforcable this law will actually turn out to be i don't know.


This part has been illegal and enforced for some time, as tested in the spanner case as it actually comes under much older pre-existing legislation. Please bear in mind that a heavy lovebite can fall under the laws that cover physical assault. Courts have ruled that between a married couple consent was valid and therefore charges were dismissed.

Two further cases concerned heterosexual married couples. In both cases the husband had placed serious marks on his wife's body in the course of a consensual SM scene. In each case when the case came to trial the Judge ruled that what took place within the confines of a consensual private relationship was of no concern to the court. These cases do not invalidate the original Spanner judgement nor is it clear how they affect SM activity outside heterosexual marriage.
 
Source http://www.spannertrust.org/documents/smandthelaw.asp



missturbation -> RE: When do the new uk laws come in to force? (1/5/2007 4:41:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
A dom will be prosecuted for anything classed as violent conduct, charged with assault. The sub will be charged with aiding and abetting. The issue of consent will not be admissable in court.
How enforcable this law will actually turn out to be i don't know.


This part has been illegal and enforced for some time, as tested in the spanner case as it actually comes under much older pre-existing legislation. Please bear in mind that a heavy lovebite can fall under the laws that cover physical assault. Courts have ruled that between a married couple consent was valid and therefore charges were dismissed.

Two further cases concerned heterosexual married couples. In both cases the husband had placed serious marks on his wife's body in the course of a consensual SM scene. In each case when the case came to trial the Judge ruled that what took place within the confines of a consensual private relationship was of no concern to the court. These cases do not invalidate the original Spanner judgement nor is it clear how they affect SM activity outside heterosexual marriage.
 
Source http://www.spannertrust.org/documents/smandthelaw.asp


It may have been illegal and there may be rare cases of prosecution but it hasnt been properly enforced really. There will be no allowances made for what goes on in the marital home being private.
I am actually aware of the law and have been involved in a few (unfortunately) domestic abuse cases which is what most bdsm prosecutions will fall under due to the intimate nature. Its hard enough to prosecute when the so called victim is cooperating, when they dont and i certainly wouldnt cooperate if i was charged with aid and abetting it is nearly impossible.
I think what we need to bear in mind is that for this law to work it is going to have to be very tight with no room for the prosecuted to manouvre a defence. As the law stands it is flexible but i cant see it being so if this is passed.



sleazy -> RE: When do the new uk laws come in to force? (1/5/2007 4:50:14 AM)

At no point was there any intention for the new laws to cover the physical act, it was purely about the possesion images (this I think was one of the shortcomings of the intent of the law, trying to solve the wrong problem).

As i type this reply, I am actually halfway thru' reading the latest government paper on the issue.

Upon reading so far it seems the definition of what would be considered serious sexual violence has been very watered down from the original - a good thing for those of us with our tastes, anyone who fancies being bored feel free to read http://www.spannertrust.org/documents/Gvt-response-extreme-porn.pdf

Of course my opinion of this may be subject to change as I read further



missturbation -> RE: When do the new uk laws come in to force? (1/5/2007 4:55:06 AM)

At no point was there any intention for the new laws to cover the physical act, it was purely about the possesion images (this I think was one of the shortcomings of the intent of the law, trying to solve the wrong problem).
Thats not what my sources say. As i said under the new law a sub will be charged with aiding and abetting which hasnt really happened before.
 
I signed the petition weeks and weeks ago when this first came to my attention. I just think its a shame that im over 18 and am being told what life choices i should make regarding my sex life.
Going to go read your article now - forewarned is forearmed as they say.



sleazy -> RE: When do the new uk laws come in to force? (1/5/2007 4:58:03 AM)

I dont have a copy of the original paper to hand, but at no point does the current paper linked  above refer to criminalising the acts, just the imagery. Backlash may still have a copy of the original paper available for examination, I shall have a peek once I am done with the current one :)



LadyEllen -> RE: When do the new uk laws come in to force? (1/5/2007 4:58:47 AM)

You see, the thing I cant get over, is that the police in recent years have founded Independent Advisory Groups, to advise them on tactical and strategic levels in dealing with minority groups which formerly didnt get a good deal from the police. In addition to a Disabilities Group and Ethnic/Religious Minority Group, my local force (West Mercia) has an LGBT Group.

The LGBT Group only functions because the police have had to change their attitudes regarding the likes of us - ie that being gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender and transvestite is not a crime and that officers' personal views on morality etc is irrelevant in the law and so we ought to be treated like anyone else and expect the same high level of courtesy and respect as anyone else. The former situation, before this change, was that alike with ethnic and religious minorities, LGBT people did not receive the same treatment and often received unfair treatment because of what they do - that is live in a way not in accordance with strict 1950s style WASP culture.

To apply then, a law which whilst not specifically aimed at bdsm will inevitably encompass it, seems odd, when the police in their latest incarnation are taking great pains to be alternative lifestyle friendly, especially when this change of heart includes by way of the LGB aspect at least, alternative forms of sexuality. I know that there are LGBT people who engage in bdsm activities, and those activities form part of their LGBT sexuality. So to indict them for their bdsm activities, must inevitably also indict them for being LGBT, for their bdsm activities are tied in intimately to their LGBT sexualities. Given that the LGBT community and its constituents are now working with the police, against considerable resistance from the majority in those communities who distrust the police from poor prior experiences and encounters, this could all become very embarassing for the police and set back relations irrevocably, at the first arrest of an LGBT bdsm practitioner; especially considering the vocal and intellectual nature of many in those communities.

My hopeful instinct, given the above, is that the police will be extremely careful in how they apply this law (given that it is not thrown out by a House Of Lords whose reputation for being involved in bdsm activities themselves!), and not use it willy nilly to round up everyone who ever visited a bdsm website for example. In my case, I have visited the OWK website on many occasions, and there are on that website some pictures that would undoubtedly bring me into conflict with this law, but am I seriously a danger to the public for that? Of course not, and the stink I would kick up if I got a knock on the door would not be something the police would enjoy, I assure you. Add on top of that the probable arrest of several celebrities and other public figures and the unpleasant result would be magnified a thousand times.

I am also interested, in how the EU Human Rights legislation will figure in all of this; the right to private life as one aspect, the rights to freedom of association and communication as others. Will we yet again see the British government humiliated in Strasbourg, fined millions which of course we the taxpayer will have to pay and ordered to pay compensation of equal sums to people whose lives have been ruined by ridiculous convictions?

E



missturbation -> RE: When do the new uk laws come in to force? (1/5/2007 5:01:50 AM)

 dont have a copy of the original paper to hand, but at no point does the current paper linked  above refer to criminalising the acts, just the imagery. Backlash may still have a copy of the original paper available for examination, I shall have a peek once I am done with the current one :)

I have no wish to fight with you over this. All im saying is that my source believes that the laws over violent behaviour are set to change along with the violent pornographic law coming in. I never said it was mentioned in the backlash papers. If it happens people are forewarned - if it doesnt then my source was wrong - no harm done.



meatcleaver -> RE: When do the new uk laws come in to force? (1/5/2007 5:06:45 AM)

General point

Having been a regular at the London and Birmingham Fetish Fair, I just can't imagine all those people who travel in their fetish gear on public transport suddenly dressing normally for the day out. I can't imagine police raids on such well behaved venues, the police will end up being a laughing stock. Apart from that I know several police who attend or at least did when I used to go. The whole proposed law is bananas and I can't see it being passed.

But then we are talking about the Labour government and they'll do anything to appear to be doing something radical and any victim will do as long as it isn't against their conservative/liberal (yep, the two go together) middleclass privileged supporters.



sleazy -> RE: When do the new uk laws come in to force? (1/5/2007 5:09:22 AM)

Miss, I have no desire to fight either, your source could well be right and there is such legislation in the pipeline that I am not aware of. I would of course be most interested if you could enquire for clarification as it is an important issue. It would not be the first time a government has thrown out a red herring to distract the masses I'm sure.



Faldegast -> RE: When do the new uk laws come in to force? (1/5/2007 5:09:26 AM)

 Or you can always do what i intent to do when i have finnished my masters degree: Find a more liberal country and move there.



missturbation -> RE: When do the new uk laws come in to force? (1/5/2007 5:09:50 AM)

My hopeful instinct, given the above, is that the police will be extremely careful in how they apply this law
I think like any law it will be enforced erratically. There are thos police officers out there that will throw the book at you for anything and those that will over look certain things. I guess it depends on how enforcable and cut and dried this law turns out to be.
 
I am also interested, in how the EU Human Rights legislation will figure in all of this; the right to private life.
This will certainly be interesting.
 
For me this law will change nothing. I will still practice bdsm, still have my photo shoots done etc. It brings up a lot of questions though regarding things like photo shoots. Will the person who takes the photos be prosecuted? Will a picture of you in just cuffs, or collar and lead be classed as violent pornography? Where will the lines be drawn?



missturbation -> RE: When do the new uk laws come in to force? (1/5/2007 5:11:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

Miss, I have no desire to fight either, your source could well be right and there is such legislation in the pipeline that I am not aware of. I would of course be most interested if you could enquire for clarification as it is an important issue. It would not be the first time a government has thrown out a red herring to distract the masses I'm sure.


I will certainly see if i can find out any further info. It could all be hot air but i figured worth mentioning.



missturbation -> RE: When do the new uk laws come in to force? (1/5/2007 5:12:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

General point

Having been a regular at the London and Birmingham Fetish Fair, I just can't imagine all those people who travel in their fetish gear on public transport suddenly dressing normally for the day out. I can't imagine police raids on such well behaved venues, the police will end up being a laughing stock. Apart from that I know several police who attend or at least did when I used to go. The whole proposed law is bananas and I can't see it being passed.

But then we are talking about the Labour government and they'll do anything to appear to be doing something radical and any victim will do as long as it isn't against their conservative/liberal (yep, the two go together) middleclass privileged supporters.


I think these are exactly the kinds of places they will clamp down on. If thew law is passed and fairs such as bbb are allowed to continue selling bdsm pictures etc then questions will be asked. If they pass this law they will have to be seen to be upholding it.



LadyEllen -> RE: When do the new uk laws come in to force? (1/5/2007 5:18:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

For me this law will change nothing. I will still practice bdsm, still have my photo shoots done etc. It brings up a lot of questions though regarding things like photo shoots. Will the person who takes the photos be prosecuted? Will a picture of you in just cuffs, or collar and lead be classed as violent pornography? Where will the lines be drawn?


Yes - depending where the line is drawn it could get interesting. A picture of a couple in the stables about to go riding, with whips in hand, might well be dodgy. And then there's the whole "acts preparatory to" and "going equipped" area - a camera, two people and a ruler (for instance) in a room, could perhaps constitute evidence on those grounds.

E



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