RE: Training & The Wild Kingdom (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid



Message


LadySonelle -> RE: Training & The Wild Kingdom (2/26/2005 2:12:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat

M.Justice-

That may be the best short dog training advice I have ever read- very impressive. the only thing that i might have disagreed with was the 'in the door first' thing- I never considered that dominance, and actually have encouraged it in dogs- they should go in first and wait ...

Stay warm,
Lawrence


In the wild, however, precedence is always about dominance! From My first little Cavaliere King Charles, through My Golden Retriever, My Terrier and now My soon to be new dog (another Cav!) I have *always* gone through doors first! I've never had a discipline problem, even with the terrier, and you know how hard headed they can be.

I would expand on the night time thing by crating. My dogs are in crates when I'm sleeping or out of the house. It's their "den" their safe place to sleep, lounge or "think it over" when they've been hyper. At night, My dogs have always come to Me and asked to go into the crate for the night.

I believe in the NILIF (Nothing In life Is Free) and "dog whisperer" training. In a wild pack, hierarchy is strictly maintained and in a dog/human pack, they *know* they are the omega, even to the house slaves.

Firm guidelines, consistency and P*R*A*I*S*E for good behaviour are key to training a Canine Good Citizen.

Lady Sonelle




pandoravampire -> RE: Training & The Wild Kingdom (2/26/2005 2:32:47 PM)

thanks travis,
sage words indeedy.
I have spent time with the RAF in the uk on dog training courses. I was a competer in agility, tracking, obedience with my own dogs, plus handler for others. Training dogs is something that i get a heap of enjoyment out of. A dog naturally wants to do as you bid, and time is all that it takes to teach it how.
Most of the dogs i have worked with, have been destined to be destroyed. So, yes, the 'tricks' taught, have saved its life. I used to take private classes. But you'd see the same stereotypical owners, arriving, their German Shepherds, rottweillers, and Dobes, up on hind legs entering the class room, wanting to attack every other dog or person in site. The owners complaining that the dog was too aggressive. Males in particular, could not see that they had in fact 'taught' the dog the very trick they now wished to break!
The dog given to me, would be fine, hand it back and its a snarling beast, just like the owner[8|]. Ive not done any dog training since i lost my border collie, who had won several challenge certificates in obedience. A team like we were is hard to beat.
Now, 8 yrs on, ive taken on a pup that is a rottweiller. I adore the temperment of these dogs. What seems cute at 9 weeks, will - if not corrected, ensure its destruction as a adult. But he is doing well, im rejuvenated in my love of training again. As the special relationship grows.
Most of my training experience is with either German shepherds, or Dobes as they are the breeds the RAF choose. All dogs are supplied free, all dogs have began life as a pet to an inexperienced owner, with no idea that what seemed cute as a pup, is a dominant trait, that has later as sexual maturity progressed, become a danger to own dog. All training is was based on operant conditioning. Good = reward, bad = ingnore, correction to right path, then reward. Its not rocket science.

The novelty dog of the year. Or whatever breed won best in show, well you could bet, that was the new 'craze' in the pup classes. Fashionable dogs being the 'new black'. When this breed was a working breed - hey, that was cool for me, i earnt heaps in puppy classes and one to one sessions with disobedient dogs, as working dogs were asked by novice owners to be a pet. The trendier the breed, the more pups bred. Market forces rule ok. But the less reputeable breeder, were breeding in the very traits that should of been bred out. Hence more dogs destined to become unenjoyable family pets.

Most of my training i do with either hand signals or whistle signals. Gun dogs in particular, i love to train. My brother is a breeder of gun dogs, and has a pheasant shoot, so he bred them and looked after the pups, I, with masses of help from more experienced dogs, would train the pups.

My favourite form of working dogs, is tracking. I am a morning person, so getting up early, going out alone and laying the track down, returning home to collect the dog. The site of the harness would send the dog hyper, howling to set off on the trail. I get so much pleasure from seeing a dog do, what it is meant to do its so harmonic. i love it.
As comfirmation for me of my relationshp with my dogs - obedience does it. This is my reward for the effort i have put into the dog.

My dogs return from romps in the field happy, and peaceful. However, if ive worked them, when theyve had to run mentally to keep up, when theyve been challenged and their brains have been thoroughly exercised, they return happy, and really knackered out lol. And sleep for ages. As do i!
Having emigrated to australia, im now just moved into the country, its going to be tracking haven here. Cant wait for the pup to grow up a bit, and start in earnest. Though he's learning to follow a trail allready as he sniffs his way picking up his little rewards ive left that lead back to me waiting with a lot of praise.

Here in australia, it seems to be common to keep dogs outside. The cultural differences in dog ownership seem very different to the UK. I like my dogs with my family in the home. This pup, like all four previous dogs ive owned, are from day one, the very bottom of my pack. I am its alpha female, and employ techniques as youve described to ensure this. Any deviance from it lowest pack member behaviour that i see, will be corrected, and then the dog retested to ensure it rememebers the lesson taught.
My other animals are left to sort out their heirarchy by themselves. So currently, the pack order is me, my son, our cat, the male duck, the puppy, then the female duck. The puppy in one week, has climbed from bottom, to second to bottom. Female duck is a bit of a coward coz she has her husband around to fight her battles. Only when hubby is away, can the dog overtake her in pack order.
Yeah, i too can go on and on and on about dogs and training methods lol.






LadySonelle -> RE: Training & The Wild Kingdom (2/26/2005 2:35:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NoPinkBalloons

My dog knows who's the boss around our house (and he knows it's not me). I'm pretty ok with that. Personally, I don't see the point in having a pet if I'm not going to spoil him/her. That's why I have them.


The problem with this is that in the wild, a dog knows exactly what to do, He is fitted for the wild (well his wolf ancestors were) and life is simple. When a dog comes into the human world, things suddenly get VERY complex! Wolves don't have to figure out how to go outside to relieve when there are doors and streets to navigate. Life in a house can be very confulsing and counter to the dog's natural mental and emotional equipment. That is where we humans come in.

Dogs *need* hierarchy. They were designed to live in a hierarchical pack structure and that is why they serve us so willingly and are the most trainable animal in Nature. When I see one of those Funniest Home Videos of a dog growling, snarling and guarding the telly remote or the coffe cup or his supper dish, I want to reach through and *slap* the stupid OWNER! That is NOT a happy dog!! His world is in disorder, *he* thinks he's king of the castle and he's one damned confused animal. AND everyone in the house is at serious risk for a bite!

quote:

I do pretty much all the things you say shouldn't be done - Jack is allowed on the furniture, sleeps in my bed, goes through the door in front of me, plays tug-of-war, etc. Fortunately, I have no desire to "train" him. He responds when it's important (he understands a sharp "NO!" and stops what he's doing to see what's going on), and beyond that, it's all good. He's happy, I'm happy, and our world continues to turn.


And if that works for you, so be it. But do keep him **always** on a lead and remember, since his "brakes" are somewhat faulty do to looser communications, that YOU must be responsible for safety at ALL times, for all it takes is a split second for tragedy to happen. I'd bet he is a door bolter and a barker when guests arrive, is he not? That is a recipe for disaster unless you have a good sturdy fence.

quote:

I'm the sort of person who tends to crings when I see dogs doing tricks. It seems utterly humiliating to me, and I'd never want that for my pets.


That all depends on the breed. Shelties, collies, any of the herding breed, Dalmatians and terriers all have a very high work drive, a prey drive and they need, crave and MUST have "work" to do or they go insane! If left to their own devices, they will get into unheard of nischief, digging, barking, destructiveness... Things like Canine Good Citizen courses, Agility training, even herding classes exist to give dogs somewhere to burn off that excess energy. The "trick" such as rolling over, completing an obstacle course, sitting up, etc, is only humiliating to the human's POV. To the dog it is "Somthing I can do that makes Mom HAPPY! Let's do it AGAIN!! Yeah!!" and the bright happy response to praise after a new behaviour is learnt shows the dog's eagerness and joy at pleasing you.

I do not generally teach tricks such as "play dead" or "roll over" but I do teach "Give paw!" "Over!" "Wait!" "Leave it!" etc, because these are behaviours that enable the dog to be handled (ears, mouth, tail, paws, genitals) by owner or vet, or positioned and held in that position. Handling is also a dominance issue and the dog that won't let you touch his ears or tail or pick up and hold his paw is doing so because he has the idea that HIS body belongs to HIM, not you! (*WRONG!* Juno! Every hair on your fuzzy little carcass is *MINE*!)

quote:

Maybe that's why my step-mother's secretary used to say that if there was such a thing as reincarnation then she wanted to come back as one of my dogs, because she couldn't imagine a better life. :)



If it works for you, great! I want My dog to be 100% (or as close as we can come to that) reliable. I want him to know exactly to a tail-width where he belongs in this pack and *happy* where he is! All of My dogs have been *lavished* with praise, affection, love, training, cuddling, and they have worked for it and earned it. That is self esteem that is solid and gives the dog a solid foundation in the pack. he NEVER has to guess, wonder, surmise or not know who, what, where he is and whether or not he is loved.

Lady Sonelle




TravisTJustice -> RE: Training & The Wild Kingdom (2/26/2005 2:52:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pandoravampire

As comfirmation for me of my relationshp with my dogs - obedience does it. This is my reward for the effort i have put into the dog.




A really great post, PandoraVampire. I'll respond to other parts seperately, but what you said here reminded me to the origins of the expression "man's best friend" and this "Eulogy to the dog" --

"Gentlemen of the jury, the best friend a man has in this world may turn against him and become his enemy. His son or daughter whom he has reared with loving care may prove ungrateful. Those who are nearest and dearest to us -- those whom we trust with our happiness and good name -- may become traitors in their faith. The money that a man has he may lose. It flies away from him, perhaps when he needs it most. A man's reputation may be sacrificed in a moment of ill-considered action. The people who are prone to fall on their knees to do us honor when success is with us may be the first to throw the stone of malice when failure settles its cloud upon our heads. The one absolute, unselfish friend that man can have in this selfish world -- the one that never proves ungrateful or treacherous -- is his dog.

"Gentlemen of the jury, a man's dog stands by him in prosperity and poverty, in health and sickness. He will sleep on the cold ground, where the wintry winds blow, and the snow drives fiercely, if only he can be near his master's side. He will kiss the hand that has no food to offer; he will lick the wounds and sores that come in encounter with the roughness of the world. He guards the sleep of his pauper master as if he were a prince. When all other friends desert, he remains. When riches take wings and reputation falls to pieces, he is as constant in his love as the sun in its journey through the heavens.

"If fortune drives the master forth an outcast in the world, friendless and homeless, the faithful dog asks no higher privilege than that of accompanying him to guard against danger, to fight against his enemies. And when the last scene of all comes, and death takes the master in its embrace, and his body is laid away in the cold ground, no matter if all other friends pursue their way, there by his graveside will the noble dog be found, his head between his paws, his eyes sad but open in alert watchfulness, faithful and true even to death."

To read to full background of this speech, go here:

http://www.almostheaven-golden-retriever-rescue.org/old-drum.html




TravisTJustice -> RE: Training & The Wild Kingdom (2/26/2005 3:14:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadySonelle


Dogs *need* hierarchy. They were designed to live in a hierarchical pack structure and that is why they serve us so willingly and are the most trainable animal in Nature. When I see one of those Funniest Home Videos of a dog growling, snarling and guarding the telly remote or the coffe cup or his supper dish, I want to reach through and *slap* the stupid OWNER! That is NOT a happy dog!! His world is in disorder, *he* thinks he's king of the castle and he's one damned confused animal. AND everyone in the house is at serious risk for a bite!



("slap the stupid owner") ha! Indeed! It always bugs me when people say "my dog doesn't bite." ALL dogs bite. Especially the small breeds that will bite and then seek refuge from consequences in the arms of their owners. Obviously, not all owners of big breeds are responsible, but it's a fact that most stats on hospital admissions for dog bites point to smaller breeds like poodles and terriers as being responsible. I can't recall ever seeing Dobermans or German Shepherds even mentioned in the top 20 lists of dog bite hospital admissions.

Funny story time: I saw a journalist interviewing a police dog handler "test" the dog to confirm what the handler had said ("the police dogs are very good around children" etc) -- he stuck his face right up close in the dog's face and the dog bit him! Sometimes, stupidity DOES hurt! lol

Travis T.




TravisTJustice -> RE: Training & The Wild Kingdom (2/26/2005 3:16:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadySonelle

The problem with this is that in the wild, a dog knows exactly what to do, He is fitted for the wild (well his wolf ancestors were) and life is simple.



There's a good documentary on dogs (should still be available on video or DVD) called "A Wolf In The Loungeroom".

[EDIT: Sorry for the red herring here -- that wasn't the title and I can't remember exactly what it was called. Will post it when I can remember it]

Travis T.




TravisTJustice -> RE: Training & The Wild Kingdom (2/26/2005 3:37:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pandoravampire

Here in australia, it seems to be common to keep dogs outside. The cultural differences in dog ownership seem very different to the UK. I like my dogs with my family in the home.




This is true, and in many ways living outdoors affirms the dog's position as bottom of the household pack. However, this shouldn't mean people isolate the dog from socializing and interracting with the rest of the family, whether indoors or out. Sadly, too many people buy a dog, stick it in the backyard, forget about it and then wonder why it develops all manner of neuroses from barking, digging holes and biting.

quote:



My other animals are left to sort out their heirarchy by themselves. So currently, the pack order is me, my son, our cat, the male duck, the puppy, then the female duck. The puppy in one week, has climbed from bottom, to second to bottom. Female duck is a bit of a coward coz she has her husband around to fight her battles. Only when hubby is away, can the dog overtake her in pack order.



HEH! You could almost be talking about my place! My Dobe (poor ol' fella died last September) found himself beneath a Muscovy duck (drake, actually) we own. The duck would steal the dog's bones and I don't think you've ever seen "pathetic look of indignation" until you've seen a "big, bad, Doberman" play second fiddle to a duck. We've got a menagerie of other animals here too, including chickens and a cat and my wife got herself a minature toy Pommeranian a couple of years ago.

Travis T.







NoPinkBalloons -> RE: Training & The Wild Kingdom (2/26/2005 7:26:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadySonelle

I'dbet he is a door bolter and a barker when guests arrive, is he not? That is a recipe for disaster unless you have a good sturdy fence.


He barks when someone comes to the door if I'm home. I've been told that if no one is home he doesn't make a sound when someone comes to the door (though I can't know if that's accurate, since I"m not there to see it). He doesn't bolt out the door when guests arrive, though. He barks from behind me (he's all talk, no action). His bark, to me, seems to be "look mom, someone's here", and then when I go to the door "you're a stranger and I'm making noise until mom says you're ok".

quote:

Handling is also a dominance issue and the dog that won't let you touch his ears or tail or pick up and hold his paw is doing so because he has the idea that HIS body belongs to HIM, not you! (*WRONG!* Juno! Every hair on your fuzzy little carcass is *MINE*!)


I got my first dog when I turned 1. Other than a few years away in University, I've had at least one dog ever since then. I've never had a dog that wouldn't let me touch him/her anywhere I wanted to. It's not something I've consciously taught them. I simply spend a lot of time cuddling, petting, brushing, etc. Jack doesn't like his paws being poked and prodded, but he tolerates it, just as he'll tolerate being touched anywhere else. He's pretty good, though, at showing me where he'd prefer to be rubbed! I've never had a dog that disliked contact, but I've never had to do any kind of conscious training or assertion of dominance for them to be that way.




Page: <<   < prev  1 [2]

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.03125