Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: US. Security or paranoia?


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: US. Security or paranoia? Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: US. Security or paranoia? - 1/7/2007 8:58:33 AM   
mymasterssub69


Posts: 566
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		paranoia under a false sense of security.

good example - if you actually read the Patriot Act I & II, our basic civil rights and liberties are no more. law enforcement can arrest you and hold indefinitely without legal representation if you are caught committing "suspicious acts" of crime ...wiretapping without a judge's order ...chips in US passports ...airport security is a total joke (yeah, my big tits are a lethal weapon).

this "get them before they get us" attitude doesn't seem to be working since they were (and probably still are) here for a long time. the more we keep giving to this administration as far as our liberties and rights the less we shall lose in the end.  we are only 1 small step away from total police state.


_____________________________

there is something infinitely magical
about a Daddy Dom
...something only a little girl
can understand.

collared on 16th Jan 2007 by bigsambaman, my Daddy

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: US. Security or paranoia? - 1/7/2007 9:23:12 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		And in the meantime they've (The govt.) left our borders wide open and we have 12-20 million illegal aliens in the country but the govt. does nothing about that!
We need a whole different type of  people in our govt.

(in reply to mymasterssub69)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: US. Security or paranoia? - 1/7/2007 9:30:22 AM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Go on holiday to the US have have you rights infringed. Go to Canada and Mexico and don't.


I have to wonder exactly what rights are being infringed here.

As I am not a US citizen I have NO rights once I step on US territory other than any rights the US may choose to give me.




_____________________________

Opinion is packaged by weight not volume, contents may settle during transit. Consult you medical practitioner. Do not attempt to stop moving parts by hand. Ensure all safety shields in place. Open this way up. Do not expose to temperatures exceeding 50C

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: US. Security or paranoia? - 1/7/2007 9:43:46 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

 keep it civil as each post is now coming with an associated snide remark such as "I give you more credit". Discussing the point always works better with me.
Didn't believe I was being obtuse, so I didn't understand why you couldn't get the connection. The snide-ness must have come from the American to English translation. Also remember my roots are New York City a 'Cockney'-type polarization of American accent and sarcasm.

Obviously I don't find consistency in your position and you do. Once again, no contra-argument can be made once reaching that point.

It seems basic that referencing the same choice of one security issue is exactly the same as one child obesity issue. As if removing cheese solves one problem and fingerprinting solves the other. In neither case is the goal served entirely, in both cases there is no proof that it will help at all.

Again, there it is, something so obvious and simple not obvious and simple to you. I would call it rationalization on your part, you would call it rationalization on mine. I would say that perspective isn't going to change no matter how pointed and focused either of us believe our points.

Hope to see you on our holiday trip to the UK and feel free to fingerprint us.  


 

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: US. Security or paranoia? - 1/7/2007 10:24:39 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Again, there it is, something so obvious and simple not obvious and simple to you. I would call it rationalization on your part, you would call it rationalization on mine. I would say that perspective isn't going to change no matter how pointed and focused either of us believe our points.

To be frank, I would call your point of view a polemic view of government action and intent (and this is different to your assumption). I also see your point of view as riddled with inconsistency. You start a thread making a point on government intrusion and then when something comes back the other way you would rather not accept that the US government is in your life. I've posted several reasons why they are in your life. Also, I've just been reading an interesting article to the effect the US government has the power to open your mail?
 
Now, I'm not saying the US or the British government is better than the other. My point of view is both governments intrude in our lives and it is a matter of opinion as to where and what basis this intrusion is necessary and justified. This is the point of view I put across in my early posts on your thread and I've read nothing on these threads to persuade me otherwise.

Hope to see you on our holiday trip to the UK. 

It'll be tricky as there's 60 million of us here. The words needle and haystack spring to mind. Either you're about to forward me your details on where and how long you're staying or you do not hope to see me at all. Who knows eh.

and feel free to fingerprint us.  

Merc, not our style. But, I did read somewhere that a piece of equipment is being proposed that can enable the user to see through clothes (to check for concealed items). Now that really is an intrusion into personal space :-)
 


_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: US. Security or paranoia? - 1/7/2007 12:15:00 PM   
mgdartist


Posts: 328
Joined: 5/13/2006
From: irving tx
Status: offline 		All I know is our Intelligence community, once upon a time, seemed to have actual intelligence in the form of brains, and did things which at least "seemed" to make them appear ahead of the game. Now, despite massive amounts of illegally obtained data, and copious, redundant technology and laws violationg our constitutional rights, they seem to know less than  many citizens, and have long appeared ineffectual and of having their hands tied with both thumbs in their ass for quite a long time, predominantly during the W administration. The previous post by popeye pointed at why I've decided to leave a state I've lived in all my life, and a city I now think of as Dallas, Mexico.

MGD


_____________________________



(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: US. Security or paranoia? - 1/7/2007 2:49:11 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Currently, the US acts more paranoid than a crack addict...


(in reply to mgdartist)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: US. Security or paranoia? - 1/7/2007 2:51:22 PM   
hisannabelle


Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Go on holiday to the US have have you rights infringed. Go to Canada and Mexico and don't.


I have to wonder exactly what rights are being infringed here.

As I am not a US citizen I have NO rights once I step on US territory other than any rights the US may choose to give me.


very, very true.

people tend to forget this. granted, i'd be pretty pissed if the uk decided to start taking away my rights as a visitor there, as well as canada, asi very much love both countries and have friends in both. but...i'm not a canadian or british citizen, so technically the only rights i am guaranteed fall under international law.

but last i checked, having your fingerprints taken wasn't really a matter of rights, either. it's a damn fingerprint. don't touch anything without gloves on if the idea of anyone having it scares you. they could get it off your suitcase if they were really worried, during security checks, but you giving them full fingerprints makes it a much more efficient and accurate process than them simply fingerprinting your checked luggage.

< Message edited by hisannabelle -- 1/7/2007 2:54:14 PM >

(in reply to sleazy)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: US. Security or paranoia? - 1/7/2007 3:16:05 PM   
MasDom


Posts: 375
Joined: 11/10/2005
Status: offline 		And thats why its fun to just super glue your finger prints away before robbing people.

Duh....

(in reply to hisannabelle)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: US. Security or paranoia? - 1/7/2007 3:29:25 PM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Go on holiday to the US have have you rights infringed. Go to Canada and Mexico and don't.


I have to wonder exactly what rights are being infringed here.

As I am not a US citizen I have NO rights once I step on US territory other than any rights the US may choose to give me.


very, very true.

people tend to forget this. granted, i'd be pretty pissed if the uk decided to start taking away my rights as a visitor there, as well as canada, asi very much love both countries and have friends in both. but...i'm not a canadian or british citizen, so technically the only rights i am guaranteed fall under international law.

but last i checked, having your fingerprints taken wasn't really a matter of rights, either. it's a damn fingerprint. don't touch anything without gloves on if the idea of anyone having it scares you. they could get it off your suitcase if they were really worried, during security checks, but you giving them full fingerprints makes it a much more efficient and accurate process than them simply fingerprinting your checked luggage.


I dont have my passport to hand, but I am pretty certain it contains a request to be offered protection and safe passage. It does not even guarantee me a right to travel, the only things it attempts to guarantee is the protection of, and re-entry to my home nation.

I was printed the very first time I entered the US, long before the scanning and picture taking at every kiosk in the airport. Admitedly I was printed for reasons far removed from keeping track of travellers, but even had I not been I would not object. On the subject of false positives mentioned elsewhere, a five-fold increase in the number of prints every entrant offers actually reduces the chance of a false hit. Those who dont want to be printed, well there is lot more world out there to explore, so just give the US a miss.

Reference the full body scanner, it is still only just out of the experimental stage and will make a negligble difference to security no matter where it is placed, be it airports, rail stations, courthouses, librarys or schools. Technology is not the answer, it is in fact part of the problem.

As for visitng here, rip up your passport once the plane lands and it will seem that you could well have more rights than native citizens, but that is a dozen or so threads all on its own :)

_____________________________

Opinion is packaged by weight not volume, contents may settle during transit. Consult you medical practitioner. Do not attempt to stop moving parts by hand. Ensure all safety shields in place. Open this way up. Do not expose to temperatures exceeding 50C

(in reply to hisannabelle)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: US. Security or paranoia? - 1/7/2007 4:53:01 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

I have to wonder exactly what rights are being infringed here.

As I am not a US citizen I have NO rights once I step on US territory other than any rights the US may choose to give me.



The information the US collects is not just for while you on in the US but they have made it clear it will be kept on their data bases and used against you wherever and whenever the US decides.

Now let me have a go at Britain who allows extradition of its citizens for reasons the US the US refuses its citizens to be extradited for.

Let me have a go at the EU who have allowed the US to collect information about you if you want to go to the US.

Why? Because your rights to privacy infringe commerce. The US is blackmailing your government and the people that represent you into giving info about you if you go to the US. I don't blame the US for that one, I blame the people that represent us and the whole sleepless dumb masses that don't care one way or another!

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to sleazy)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: US. Security or paranoia? - 1/7/2007 6:15:11 PM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

I have to wonder exactly what rights are being infringed here.

As I am not a US citizen I have NO rights once I step on US territory other than any rights the US may choose to give me.



The information the US collects is not just for while you on in the US but they have made it clear it will be kept on their data bases and used against you wherever and whenever the US decides.

Now let me have a go at Britain who allows extradition of its citizens for reasons the US the US refuses its citizens to be extradited for.

Let me have a go at the EU who have allowed the US to collect information about you if you want to go to the US.

Why? Because your rights to privacy infringe commerce. The US is blackmailing your government and the people that represent you into giving info about you if you go to the US. I don't blame the US for that one, I blame the people that represent us and the whole sleepless dumb masses that don't care one way or another!


My privacy is only infringed should I choose to attempt to enter the US.

Before I even entered the US for the 1st time I had a full deep background check done, credit check, criminal records, full work and education history, I was fingerprinted, blood samples taken, x-rays, and 4 days of interviews. Its all there still on record and will remain so indefinately. I wanted to enter the US for a specific reason and that was the price I had to pay.

How about the right of the US to know I am who I claim to be. How about the right if the US to defend its borders, lands and citizens. How about the rights of cabin crew and passengers to complete their journey safely.

On 9/11 CAPPS was one of the few systems that DID work as intended, the failure as usual was in the human element.

I would think that if I felt so strongly about such an issue I would just decide to never enter the US. Problem solved. Having said that the EU runs its own similar version of CAPPS so just about any form of long distance travel on public carrier is an invasion of privacy.



_____________________________

Opinion is packaged by weight not volume, contents may settle during transit. Consult you medical practitioner. Do not attempt to stop moving parts by hand. Ensure all safety shields in place. Open this way up. Do not expose to temperatures exceeding 50C

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: US. Security or paranoia? - 1/7/2007 11:42:18 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

I would think that if I felt so strongly about such an issue I would just decide to never enter the US. Problem solved. Having said that the EU runs its own similar version of CAPPS so just about any form of long distance travel on public carrier is an invasion of privacy.



Actually the EU collects virtually nothing on you, your national government might and none comes anywhere near what the US collects unless you fall under the suspicion of the security services. The way the US are doing things is collecting information about you and then using it for whatever purpose they want and aren't even looking after it with any consideration. People's bank account numbers collected by the US have been found on the web, along with personal and business addresses etc etc.

What the EU has done is put business before care of its citizens, it could have easily said to the Americans, trans-Atlantic flights can stop but you aren't getting info on our citizens without good reason. The pressure would have been as much on the Americans as us. Britain as usual was in the vanguard of betraying its citizen's privacy after the EU court found betraying the rights to privacy of its citizens illegal.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to sleazy)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: US. Security or paranoia? - 1/8/2007 1:23:41 AM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

I would think that if I felt so strongly about such an issue I would just decide to never enter the US. Problem solved. Having said that the EU runs its own similar version of CAPPS so just about any form of long distance travel on public carrier is an invasion of privacy.



Actually the EU collects virtually nothing on you, your national government might and none comes anywhere near what the US collects unless you fall under the suspicion of the security services. The way the US are doing things is collecting information about you and then using it for whatever purpose they want and aren't even looking after it with any consideration. People's bank account numbers collected by the US have been found on the web, along with personal and business addresses etc etc.

PNR record locator code, Date of reservation, Date(s) of intended travel, Name, Other names on PNR, Number of travelers on PNR, Seat information, Address, All forms of payment information, Billing address, Contact telephone numbers, All travel itinerary for specific PNR, Frequent flyer information (limited to miles flown and address(es)), Travel agency, Travel agent, Code share PNR information, Travel status of passenger, Split/Divided PNR information, Identifiers for free tickets, One-way tickets, Email address, Ticketing field information, ATFQ fields, General remarks, Ticket number, Seat number, Date of ticket issuance, Any collected APIS information, No show history, Number of bags, Bag tag numbers, Go show information, Number of bags on each segment, OSI information, SSI information, SSR information, Voluntary/involuntary upgrades, Received from information, All historical changes to the PNR, Traveler’s full name, Date of birth, Complete home address, Home phone number.

ALL of these  and many more interesting little bits of data are collected routinely and when certain conditions are met throw up red flags. Just because you are not asked for them when you purchase a ticket or checkin does not mean they are not recorded.
quote:


What the EU has done is put business before care of its citizens, it could have easily said to the Americans, trans-Atlantic flights can stop but you aren't getting info on our citizens without good reason. The pressure would have been as much on the Americans as us. Britain as usual was in the vanguard of betraying its citizen's privacy after the EU court found betraying the rights to privacy of its citizens illegal.


Or alternatively, citizens of the EU that object to the practice can just choose not to attempt to enter the US. If I go to a play party I exepect to leave cameras behind, if I visit my friends house I expect to take my shoes off at the door, if I visit the US I expect to be asked to abide by their rules. When a visitor from Cameroon wants to enter the EU do we not expect him to abide by our rules and entry agreements? What more good reason is there?

The EU agreed in 2004 to allow european data to be used to test CAPPS II, so on the one hand we have the EU declaring something illegal if done by a member state, but legal if done by the EU.

As stated earlier a CAPPS protects all occupants of a transport method, be they EU, US, or Tibetan. And let us not also forget it has been around an awful long time too, the first variant came into force after the Atlanta Olympic and the loss of TWA800.

Privacy has been a myth for many years now in practically all of what is reffered to as the first world. As soon as they have the data capacity and infrastructure the rest will follow.


Edited because my speeling want all funnie

< Message edited by sleazy -- 1/8/2007 1:24:51 AM >

_____________________________

Opinion is packaged by weight not volume, contents may settle during transit. Consult you medical practitioner. Do not attempt to stop moving parts by hand. Ensure all safety shields in place. Open this way up. Do not expose to temperatures exceeding 50C

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: US. Security or paranoia? - 1/8/2007 2:02:06 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

As stated earlier a CAPPS protects all occupants of a transport method, be they EU, US, or Tibetan. And let us not also forget it has been around an awful long time too, the first variant came into force after the Atlanta Olympic and the loss of TWA800.

Privacy has been a myth for many years now in practically all of what is reffered to as the first world. As soon as they have the data capacity and infrastructure the rest will follow.



Actually CAPPS isn't that good at what it is supposed to do, ie. catch terrorists and just like the sainted bio-metrics, is so over rated as to be virtually useless. All the US is doing is collecting information and intruding into the lives of those who are in the overwhelming majority of cases, honest people. If you are tagged the wrong colour by CAPPS you will be banned from flying without any redress. Consider that the next time you fly for your work. You may find your company no longer has any use for you and it has happened and such is the bureaucracy it is almost inpenetrable and get things put right.

One wonder how many terrorists are entering and leaving the US while the US is busy violating the privacy of ordinary individuals. If the US's activities stopped at the US border I would agree with you, if you don't like it don't go to the US but it doesn't, it thinks it has the god given right to intrude in the lives of people no matter what their nationality is and no matter where they travel or live.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to sleazy)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: US. Security or paranoia? - 1/8/2007 7:39:36 AM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Actually CAPPS isn't that good at what it is supposed to do, ie. catch terrorists and just like the sainted bio-metrics, is so over rated as to be virtually useless.


CAPPS, the original version, not the newer better CAPPS II, pulled 10 out of 19 targets on September the 11th*. Do the math on that, thats a better than 50% hit rate based purely on analysing ticket sales and travel history. The more information available, the more likely a solid hit, hence the expansion to CAPPS II.  CAPPS did its job admirably that fateful day, the failures were with the human side of the equation.

The wonderful thing about intelligence/security bodies is you almost never hear of the times they get it right, its only the failures make the press. Sure you hear of the granny who couldnt fly because of a typo in the spelling of her name, but do you hear of the criminals that are caught, the children returned to parents, it can work just as well for the common or garden lesser spotted toerag as it does for any other kind of criminal
quote:


All the US is doing is collecting information and intruding into the lives of those who are in the overwhelming majority of cases, honest people. If you are tagged the wrong colour by CAPPS you will be banned from flying without any redress. Consider that the next time you fly for your work. You may find your company no longer has any use for you and it has happened and such is the bureaucracy it is almost inpenetrable and get things put right.

There is a system of redress for people on the no-fly list, a complete department within the FBI (TSC) that does almost nothing but verify data from screeners. Very few  CAPPS II "selectees" are actually no-fly. The remainder are either subject to identity verification, more thourough searches, baggage not loaded until passenger confirmed boarded or some combination of. There is also a verified traveller system for people who have to use airports with the US regularly. Many of the employees of my company do set flags, they dont buy tickets on credit cards in their own names. They spend an awful lot of time in countries that have reason to dislike the US. They hold mulitple passports under the same name and nationality. They make short tranist stops in nominally freindly countries. They carry little or no baggage. Not once have any of them been flagged no-fly, nor have any been refused entry once they arrive in the US.


quote:

One wonder how many terrorists are entering and leaving the US while the US is busy violating the privacy of ordinary individuals.

Working on the only publicly available data that I am aware of, I would guess approximately 50% less terrorists get to enter US unhindered, of course othe undesirables are caught by the system too

quote:

If the US's activities stopped at the US border I would agree with you, if you don't like it don't go to the US but it doesn't, it thinks it has the god given right to intrude in the lives of people no matter what their nationality is and no matter where they travel or live

As far as data going onto the US CAPPS II goes, guess what, the data ONLY goes to the US authourities if you are going to the US or fly on a US flag carrier. i.e. you must purchase some form of ticket that involves entry into the US or jump on an aircraft that comes under US law. If you buy a ticket from Stockholm to Geneva, unless flying via the US, or with an american airline you will not appear on the US CAPPS. Buy Paris to Atlanata and you will appear on the system. If you fly by lets say Delta that means you can be on soveriegn US territory whilst still looking at the Eiffel Tower.


On the subject of the EU and CAPPS, anybody figured out why the EU was asked to supply the trial data of what was supposedly a purely American system? Consider the possibility that the US did not have the data and/or could not collect & collate the data whereas the EU allready had the data or system in place. Next ask if the EU wasn't collecting such data why would it have such a system in place?

* Source, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, vs. ZACARIAS MOUSSAOUI, a/k/a Shaqil, a/k/a Abu Khalid al Sahrawi, 6th March 2006

_____________________________

Opinion is packaged by weight not volume, contents may settle during transit. Consult you medical practitioner. Do not attempt to stop moving parts by hand. Ensure all safety shields in place. Open this way up. Do not expose to temperatures exceeding 50C

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: US. Security or paranoia? - 1/8/2007 7:57:25 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

As far as data going onto the US CAPPS II goes, guess what, the data ONLY goes to the US authourities if you are going to the US or fly on a US flag carrier. i.e. you must purchase some form of ticket that involves entry into the US or jump on an aircraft that comes under US law. If you buy a ticket from Stockholm to Geneva, unless flying via the US, or with an american airline you will not appear on the US CAPPS. Buy Paris to Atlanata and you will appear on the system. If you fly by lets say Delta that means you can be on soveriegn US territory whilst still looking at the Eiffel Tower.


On the subject of the EU and CAPPS, anybody figured out why the EU was asked to supply the trial data of what was supposedly a purely American system? Consider the possibility that the US did not have the data and/or could not collect & collate the data whereas the EU allready had the data or system in place. Next ask if the EU wasn't collecting such data why would it have such a system in place?

* Source, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, vs. ZACARIAS MOUSSAOUI, a/k/a Shaqil, a/k/a Abu Khalid al Sahrawi, 6th March 2006


CAPPSII is very easy to circumvent. CAPPSI might have pulled 50% of the WTC terrorists out but since it wasn't in place then and terrorists know what they are dealing with, they could avoid the system.

http://www.aclu.org/privacy/spying/14853res20030905.html

The EU had it in place because it was put there illegally and people are so complacent about their freedoms they don't really care until its too late. The European court ruled it was illegal and the new agreement is being taken to the European court again.

Without most of the junk in the first paragraph you couldn't book a National Express bus because you need a seat number and ticket number and a contact phone number. The majority of your list is mainly for affect but the US does collect serious information on individuals. Actually when I fly I give my mobile number so that bit of CAPPS is pointless, phones are two a penny. The fact that the European court can rule that EU officials acted illegally and no one asks for resignations just shows how little people care about their freedom.

EDITED: Read this page http://www.aclu.org/privacy/spying/15258res20040406.html

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/8/2007 8:06:43 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to sleazy)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: US. Security or paranoia? - 1/8/2007 8:34:52 AM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline 		 
Hello A/all,

I read something a few months ago which stated that it has never actually been proven empirically that no two sets of fingerprints are alike.

It is simply an assumption on the part of law enforcement grandfathered in from years ago.

I think most of the things the US is doing are based on paranoia.  We could learn to be nice to people, but instead the clowns in office want to promulgate fear.  The only thing this does is force those who want to do us harm to modify their approach to harming us.

One enemy is too many, and a thousand friends are too few. 

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: US. Security or paranoia? - 1/8/2007 4:29:00 PM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
CAPPSII is very easy to circumvent. CAPPSI might have pulled 50% of the WTC terrorists out but since it wasn't in place then and terrorists know what they are dealing with, they could avoid the system.
http://www.aclu.org/privacy/spying/14853res20030905.html


Sorry, why do you say CAPPS was not in place on Sept 11th ? If CAPPS was not in place how did it manage to flag 10 of the 19 as selectees? On Sept 11th the major rule regarding CAPPS selectees was to not load any checked baggage tied tot the selectee until it was confirmed the selectee had boarded the aircraft, the aim being to prevent another orphan baggages bomb similar to that which brought a PanAm aircraft down on a small scottish village. CAPPS came into being after intial fears that the loss of TWA800 was due to similar reasons.

The use of fingerprinting - one of the original points of this thread is just one way of dealing with one of the failings of CAPPS, namely that of offering false details. One of the major differences between the terrorism threat within the US and within the EU is that most EU terrorism comes from within the borders, for the US it is still mainly an external threat so the tightening of borders is a logical move.

quote:


The EU had it in place because it was put there illegally and people are so complacent about their freedoms they don't really care until its too late. The European court ruled it was illegal and the new agreement is being taken to the European court again.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but basically it seems the complaint is that the US are doing openly what the EU was doing illegaly and secretively.
quote:


Without most of the junk in the first paragraph you couldn't book a National Express bus because you need a seat number and ticket number and a contact phone number. The majority of your list is mainly for affect but the US does collect serious information on individuals. Actually when I fly I give my mobile number so that bit of CAPPS is pointless, phones are two a penny. The fact that the European court can rule that EU officials acted illegally and no one asks for resignations just shows how little people care about their freedom.

The list supplied is a generic one for almost any form of cross border travel, of course not all record fields apply in every case, but by being generic it does cover pretty much any form of travel.

CAPPS was designed primarly for screening air passengers, a case of balancing risks, how many National Express coaches would you need to blow up to make another Lockerbie? (visit the US and long distance coach and rail travel are covered by CAPPS) The logisitics of such an operation would tax a government. CAPPS II is also concerned solely with flights on US carriers or crossing US airspace. What if any data is collected for travel within the EU or a member state is down to each member. Most british flag carriers will not carry anybody on an international flight without a passport, even where a passport is not actually required.

So you give a mobile number when you fly, that fact alone can start to trip flags, make it a different un-registered phone number each trip and the flags get bigger and wave more vigourously. And of course lets not forget that for the rest of the life of that number, as a result of offering it, becomes tied to you, and so no longer offers privacy in other areas.

The exchange of data between the US and EU was agreed to in 2004, in fact negotitations have been underway to continue and imporove the exchange of data for some while.
quote:


EDITED: Read this page http://www.aclu.org/privacy/spying/15258res20040406.html

1. The Black Box: Americans Judged In Secret
And that is no different from applying for a job, a mortgage, a credit card etc.
2. Effectiveness: This System Will Not Make Us Any Safer 
See above re fingerprints
3. Mission Creep: Build It And It Will Grow
Fact of life terrorism and crim is not limited to airports
4. Due Process: No Notification, No Correction, No Appeal
Incorrect, there is a process of appeal, this applies also to many of the alternative data sources that CAPPS can draw upon
5. Surveillance: Enabling the Compilation of Lifetime Travel Dossiers
No, the word should be EASING, not enabling, a semantic difference I grant you, but an important one
6. Unnecessary Burden: Airlines, Travel Agents And The Public Will Pay For CAPPS II
Much the same as the Public pay for the aftermath of incidents. Its why people buy insurance
7. Discriminatory Impact: the Potential for Systematic Unequal Treatment
Of course its a system designed to discriminate against those that may be a threat, it is the published intent of the system to discriminate against those that appear to be criminally minded

_____________________________

Opinion is packaged by weight not volume, contents may settle during transit. Consult you medical practitioner. Do not attempt to stop moving parts by hand. Ensure all safety shields in place. Open this way up. Do not expose to temperatures exceeding 50C

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: US. Security or paranoia? - 1/8/2007 4:37:30 PM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy


Hello A/all,

I read something a few months ago which stated that it has never actually been proven empirically that no two sets of fingerprints are alike.
It is simply an assumption on the part of law enforcement grandfathered in from years ago.

Well untile every person living and dead has been printed it is impossible to prove entirely, but statistically fingerprints are a better unique identifier than DNA. Juries of course are often intstructed about "reasonable doubt"
quote:



I think most of the things the US is doing are based on paranoia.  We could learn to be nice to people, but instead the clowns in office want to promulgate fear.  The only thing this does is force those who want to do us harm to modify their approach to harming us.

One enemy is too many, and a thousand friends are too few. 

Sinergy


The US have never run a sucessful "hearts and minds" program, the "Hey be nice like us" attitude is actually one of the root causes of the issue. Trying to change their minds is why they want to do harm, so that leaves two options, either a) leave them alone, or, b) try and prevent them getting into a position where they can do harm.

Q "Why do you hate Americans so much?"
A "Its because you don't understand why we hate you so much"

_____________________________

Opinion is packaged by weight not volume, contents may settle during transit. Consult you medical practitioner. Do not attempt to stop moving parts by hand. Ensure all safety shields in place. Open this way up. Do not expose to temperatures exceeding 50C

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 40
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: US. Security or paranoia? Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094