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Mercnbeth -> RE: Our Next President?? (3/5/2005 7:59:44 AM)

quote:

find it within our hearts to do charity at home where we owe it


BTF,
I know I already responded to you directly, but this point bears reply.

Everyone, regardless of age, race, or gender, better appreciate; they are owed NOTHING! After a couple of generations of social welfare all the US managed to accomplish was generating another generation of welfare recipients. And I'm quite aware that the greatest percentage of welfare recipients are not black. I'd eliminate every social welfare program, including those given to corporations.

People by nature are inherently lazy. "Work" is something you don't want to do, but realize that the alternative is not having a place to live or food to eat. But this isn't a problem easily solved with elimination. The US is trying that now. Eliminating welfare after a specific time limit. But are is tow key issues not considered; medical insurance and child care. Under most welfare programs rudimentary medical insurance is available. Most often the welfare recipient is the child care provider. Now you are telling this person that their welfare time is up, and medical benefits are ending; go out and find a job.

Are their ANY entry level jobs for a unskilled, under educated person that offer paid medical benefits? How about child care? This is a gap I see no one addressing. National health care will never happen as long as the AMA exists. A national medical service, staffed by doctors who are government employees working at government medical facilities IS possible. Only people and families with household incomes less then poverty level for their market would be eligible. It's possible because the AMA doesn't want these people as clients anyway. They don't come to them for plastic surgery or to work on their tennis elbow. Continue the status quo for the masses, although those over the poverty line could purchase into the national program at a floating rate contingent upon income and family size. Of course their employee would be required to pay the actual price of any services. This will not give the employers the idea of eliminating existing medical plans.

The child care issue is more difficult. Do we go to the Israel kibbutz system? Consider this quote regarding the Israeli system;
quote:

"From birth to adulthood, children on Israeli kibbutzim lived with their peers and metapelet (caretaker) in a children's house. Come evening, their parents would spend two to three hours with them and then tuck them into bed. "It was inhuman, really inhuman," says Dorit Friedman, recalling her upbringing at Kibbutz Nachshon.
-- Mothering: The infant daycare experiment by Peg Lopata, findarticles.com, Winter 1993


Our public schools have already given up any pretense of education and are already mostly day care. I think I'd need to bring someone into my cabinet to tackle this issue. At it's foundation there should be accountability. Accountability for the students AND the teachers. Tenure is earned by results. Results are NOT graduation rates, but a national standard test of reading, writing, and math skills.

One last point regarding...
quote:

people in positions to hire, tend to hire those who are more like them.

This may be true at the fast food restaurants and convenience stores but this is a fallacy at the professional or mid to upper management. There, you want someone to compliment your skills. Who brings to the management team a missing piece of the puzzle. In the sales industry it's even less an issue. There it's the MOST pragmatic hire decision; "How much business can you generate?" Sales is the one job that discrimination exists, but the discrimination is still based upon business reasons. You hire someone best suited for the market and cliental. For example, ever see a white overweight 40+ year old working at Victoria's Secret?



onceburned -> RE: Our Next President?? (3/5/2005 12:13:38 PM)

Hi Merc I am going to jump in just to keep the conversation going. [:)]

quote:

Everyone, regardless of age, race, or gender, better appreciate; they are owed NOTHING


In general I agree. Each of us as individuals need to take responsibilty for our own life and accept the outcome of our actions. The world doesn't owe us a living.

However, I would say that programs such as Social Security are insurance programs. Americans pay regular premiums into it and -are- entitled to benefits when/if they qualify. Most obviously this covers senior citizens who have retired, but I would also say that if covers workers who have become disabled.

quote:

I'd eliminate every social welfare program, including those given to corporations.

This might be going too far. Welfare programs should be designed to help people get back on their feet. There should be a social safety net to catch people if they fall - it can happen to any one. And children should have every opportunity to grow up with adequate nutrition and health.

quote:

Are their ANY entry level jobs for a unskilled, under educated person that offer paid medical benefits? How about child care? This is a gap I see no one addressing


And I applaud your willingness to raise the issue. But I think the solutions will founder over the issue of cost. Fixing either program would require massive government spending and there simply is not the political will to do this in the U.S. Americans would rather see their individual taxes cut.

Your idea of the national health service is an interesting one, but I don't share your optimism that the AMA wouldn't fight its passage. After all, the AMA fought the Medicaid and Medicare proposals all the way from the 1930's through the 1950's before finally giving in in the early 60's when passage seemed inevitable. (shrug) But who knows?

quote:

Our public schools have already given up any pretense of education and are already mostly day care

Ahem. [:D]

quote:

Results are NOT graduation rates, but a national standard test of reading, writing, and math skills

I am not a teacher and I haven't looked at the issues of education. So I will leave to our more learned colleagues to reply to this.

The final paragraph dealt with persons being hired for personal characteristics outside of aquired skills and experience. You say that this is fine for sales people but not for other jobs. This is touchy territory and I applaud your willingness to venture into it.

I would say that every individual who has skills and experience should be given the opportunity to prove themselves capable of doing a job. That would include sales - people should not be excluded simply because they "don't fit in". This excuse was and still is used in employment decision making - sometimes it is legitimate (an abrasive arrogant person for example might not make a good addition to a collegial project enviornment) but it can also be inappropriate --- race or ethnic/religious background.

Are you saying that race and ethnic background do not play a role in hiring?




Mercnbeth -> RE: Our Next President?? (3/5/2005 7:36:40 PM)

chris,
Glad you joined the fray, I wrote directly to BTF that I thought we were boring people with this type of subject matter.

quote:

say that programs such as Social Security are insurance programs.


I'd be able to retire today if the money I was able to invest the money I was forced to pay into SS. It's the only "insurance" that the 'company' (US Government) gets to move the target (changed retirement eligibility), change the rate (increase the tax) and lower the payout. If an insurance company sold insurance like that, the owners would be jailed.

The reason I see a crack in the AMA is that for the first time ever doctor's net income is going down. While medical malpractice cost has increased and the doctor's office now needing a full time crew to deal with insurance claims bureaucracy; being a Doctor is not the path to riches it used to be. Here in LA hospitals and emergency rooms are closing. I think a doctors would consider a fixed salary government employee position. But I haven't heard anyone even bring up this idea in the national forum so I don't know how the AMA would react. If pressured or offered the option of this idea versus universal national health care, they may consider it. I think we need to do SOMETHING different.

Don't misunderstand, I don't support prejudice or discrimination of any kind, but I do believe that it's incumbent for any businessman to put a sales person in place who will generate the most sales. It's just the way it is. My example of a balding fat 40+ year old selling at Victoria's Secret was an effort in illustrating a point with the absurd. But ever see a fat person selling memberships at Bally's Gym? A thin person working Krispy Kreme? That prejudice is all around us and allowed. Businesses put people in sales positions to sell. They hire someone that the target market can relate to. Exceptions are there of course, and if someone came to me outside my image of the sales person I wanted to hire and sold me that they could to the job I'd hire them. But it's the Bottom Line that he/she will be judged, not anything else.

Want to see prejudice or at lease missrepresentation? Here's a challenge. Watch any of the shows showing Vegas, especially the one with James Caan, "Vegas". Look in the background, not at the stars, during the scanning of the casino. Do you see one person, other then James Cahn, over 60? How about an ugly woman, or an overweight person? According to the show only beautiful white and black people weight height proportionate with 6 pack abs go to Vegas. Ever been to Vegas? It's NOT the case. But it's the image of Vegas that Vegas and the makers of that show want to project. Why - Because it sells! The same way the image of two bikini clad women wresting the mud sells beer.

But to responsive to your question. I'll say that race and ethnic background play much less a role, and oft time NO role in hiring, compared to the past. I could rationalize that many times during the course of my career I wasn't hired because of my Italian background. Bitching about it or using it as an excuse not to try or quit was never an option. I think that now, AA/EEOC policies are counter productive. I think that the public outcry and economic impact of prejudicial hiring make it nearly impossible for any company to discriminate. Exceptions, anomalies, last bastions, isolated pockets, still exist. But I think all the dinosaurs are at least locked in a tar pit and just about dead.

Some of the issues of funding I've previously addressed. Maybe you should see the entire 25 planks of the election platform.

These first few came from FangNfeet:
1. Will you not hesitate not to use Nukes?
2. Will you stop giving money to the UN?
3. Will you stop funding the war efforts between Palestine and Israel?
4. Will you get rid of Social Security once and for all?
5. Will you raise the abortion limit to the age of 17yrs old?
6. Can we begin having Giant Robots in our weapons program and wars?
7. Will you release all information regarding Area 54, the JFK assignation, and every question MercNbeth ask?

I added these to make 25....
8. Truth about Roswell & the visiting aliens?
9. Eliminate ALL 'moral' laws concerning drugs, prostitution, censorship.
10. Eliminate the tax free status of all charitable and religious institutions.
11. Redistrict the entire country based strictly on grid mapping system, eliminating all previous gerrymandering by BOTH political parties.
12. Eliminate the Electoral Congress.
13. End all government subsidies. (e.g., milk, oil, peanuts, etc)
14. Nationwide minimum drinking age - 18, or raise the military age to 21.
15. Free college education for ALL. Testing required for entry however.
16. Establish national US free health service by expanding the military medical core. Paying doctors fix salary, based on the national average income of a physician per specialty + 10%, and offering services through national clinics & hospitals. But NOT eliminating alternative 'private' insurance and/or medical coverage.
17. Eliminate the income tax, replace it with national sales tax. Different for different goods sold. 0% for food, and as high as 50-100% for those previously illegal products such as drugs and sex)
18. Eliminate all tax on savings and investment income.
20. Eliminate all property taxes for all residences owned and occupied by people over 70.
21. Establish national Drivers License / ID, and national vehicle registration. Eliminating ALL state DMV.
22. Eliminate all government supported monopolies such as cable TV.
23. Eliminate ALL EEO/AA programs.
24. Institute English Tort system regarding civil awards, requiring loser pays cost of litigation.
25. Establish rotating paid arbitrator panels staffed with indivituals with a background in law to replace jury system. Require ALL litigation (civil & criminal) to be heard within 90 days of the case being filed.

And amended one...
Mandatory two year government service for all at the age of 17. Not mandatory military. At 17 you would have to pick from a variety of duty ranging from the Forestry Service to working in a soup kitchen, the military would be among the choices.

I'd be willing to relinquish the national MV program (although I'd love to eliminate the DMV) and replace it with this.

Do I have a constituency??



MadameDahlia -> RE: Our Next President?? (3/5/2005 11:45:15 PM)

1. Will you not hesitate not to use Nukes?
* On what/whom?
2. Will you stop giving money to the UN?
* And spend it on feeding our poor, treating our ill and things of that nature?
3. Will you stop funding the war efforts between Palestine and Israel?
* Sounds good to me. Let them figure out their own issues.
4. Will you get rid of Social Security once and for all?
* You mean we could spend that bit of extra money or save it elsewhere!? Good!
5. Will you raise the abortion limit to the age of 17yrs old?
* I'm just a bit confused here. Raise it so that seventeen year olds can abort? Who else?
6. Can we begin having Giant Robots in our weapons program and wars?
* Mechs? Hee hee. Fun stuff.
7. Will you release all information regarding Area 54, the JFK assignation, and every question MercNbeth ask?
* Finally... The truth shall set you free.

I added these to make 25....
8. Truth about Roswell & the visiting aliens?
* More truth. Whoo hoo.
9. Eliminate ALL 'moral' laws concerning drugs, prostitution, censorship.
* I thank you. Peter McWilliams thanks you (well, he would if he weren't dead).
10. Eliminate the tax free status of all charitable and religious institutions.
* YES. Tax 'em all to hell and back - or heaven if they don't like that word.
11. Redistrict the entire country based strictly on grid mapping system, eliminating all previous gerrymandering by BOTH political parties.
* And maybe get new voting machines - no chads. No electronic f-ups.
12. Eliminate the Electoral Congress.
* The popular vote (the people) would actually elect our officials instead of a much smaller sampling of the U.S.? Hmm... what a novel idea.
13. End all government subsidies. (e.g., milk, oil, peanuts, etc)
* "In 1984 New Zealand's Labor government took the dramatic step of ending all farm subsidies, which then consisted of 30 separate production payments and export incentives. Subsidy elimination in New Zealand was swift and sure. There was no extended phaseout of farm payments, as was promised but not delivered under U.S. farm reforms in 1996. Instead, New Zealand's government simply offered one-time "exit grants" to those who wanted to leave farming when subsidies ended." http://www.cato.org/current/fiscal-policy/pubs/edwards-020303.html (It seems to be working for them).
14. Nationwide minimum drinking age - 18, or raise the military age to 21.
* I'm all in favor of pushing up that military age and not in favor of more eighteen year olds screwing up their mental development. I think that eighteen and up should be suitable to enlist on a volunteer basis. However the brain is still developing chemically at 21 so it's certainly changing, developing at eighteen. Do we really need more drunken assholes on the roads killing themselves or other people?
15. Free college education for ALL. Testing required for entry however.
* No out of state fees? No horrific tuition? No filing for FAFSA or other scholarships? Classrooms filled with people who are actually there to learn? This is a cruel joke right?
16. Establish national US free health service by expanding the military medical core. Paying doctors fix salary, based on the national average income of a physician per specialty + 10%, and offering services through national clinics & hospitals. But NOT eliminating alternative 'private' insurance and/or medical coverage.
* No comment at the moment. The brain is far too on vacation to come up with something at the moment.
17. Eliminate the income tax, replace it with national sales tax. Different for different goods sold. 0% for food, and as high as 50-100% for those previously illegal products such as drugs and sex)
* Why should "previously illegal" products such as drugs and sex be more taxable than french fries? The fries will probably kill you faster than the drugs or sex. Tax one like any other good... the other like any other service.

And amended one...
Mandatory two year government service for all at the age of 17. Not mandatory military. At 17 you would have to pick from a variety of duty ranging from the Forestry Service to working in a soup kitchen, the military would be among the choices.
* Sign me up --- for the soup kitchen. Sign me up for a year... or several. Just don't put a gun in my hand that I don't want to be holding.

There are a few I didn't get around to covering because bed sounds so nice at the moment.



onceburned -> RE: Our Next President?? (3/6/2005 5:48:48 AM)

Hi Merc,

I suppose there is a risk of boring folks by this discussion. But if they are willing to take time out from reading about the difference between slave and submissive they might get entertained. [:)]


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

It's the only "insurance" that the 'company' (US Government) gets to move the target (changed retirement eligibility), change the rate (increase the tax) and lower the payout. If an insurance company sold insurance like that, the owners would be jailed.


Not mention using the largesse of premiums from the Baby Boom generation to fund other programs instead of investing it to interest. The Ponzi scheme worked for the U.S. government in the 1960's and 70's but the bill for that fiscal irresponsibility is about to come due.

quote:

If pressured or offered the option of this idea versus universal national health care, they may consider it. I think we need to do SOMETHING different.


Yeah. The current way of paying for medical care is a mess. Its why the U.S. lags behind other developed nations in basic health care indicators like infant mortality. But I still don't think bigger government programs are going to fly - the Federal government and states are trying to shrink Medicaid rather than expand its coverage. Heck, there is a waiting list for the AIDS Drug Assistance Programs because the states regularly run out of the money budgetted to pay for the drugs.

I don't think a national health care program, although needed, has had any realistic chance of passge. Ever since Ronald Reagan was president voters have prefered taxes cut rather than programs expanded. (actually voters want lower taxes -and- increased government spending... but thank god they don't make the laws)

quote:

Don't misunderstand, I don't support prejudice or discrimination of any kind, but I do believe that it's incumbent for any businessman to put a sales person in place who will generate the most sales.


No I think you and I agree. Its in the company's best interest to hire people who will make profits for the company. My only concern is that prejudgements about individuals do get made - to borrow your example, the balding fat middle aged white guy who wants to work in Victoria's Secret. Sounds silly, right? But maybe he really does have great rapport with the customers, maybe he can make them feel comfortable and willing to spend. I agree that women's lingerie is a specialty market and a male sales clerk might put off customers... but the managers should at least listen to him to see if he has that elusive combination of establishing rapport, gaining trust and pumping up sales.

quote:

According to the show only beautiful white and black people weight height proportionate with 6 pack abs go to Vegas. Ever been to Vegas? It's NOT the case. But it's the image of Vegas that Vegas and the makers of that show want to project. Why - Because it sells!


Which raises the question, is the gathering in Vegas on the weekend of May 21 still on? We need to improve the image of that city. [:D]






Mercnbeth -> RE: Our Next President?? (3/6/2005 10:00:38 AM)

quote:

Which raises the question, is the gathering in Vegas on the weekend of May 21 still on? We need to improve the image of that city.


chris,

Well, I'll commit that beth & I will be there! Hell it maybe only us, but that never stopped us from having a good time before. As I said, we know people there so again, the worst case is that we'll rustle up a house party. I have some feelers out for a party place, but can't confirm anything. I was considering a venue relocation to LA. It would be easier to have a non-restrictive play area here, but thought again. Vegas was the announced venue, and, as someone pointed out, airfare/hotels ARE less expensive there, and since this is the first attempt to do something like this with this group maybe it's best to see exactly how many people can and will actually show up before making grander plans.

So this week, hopefully after getting some other feedback about what price range the hotel should be, I'll book a room for beth and I. ALL will be welcome to join us.



SatanicEcstasy -> RE: Our Next President?? (3/6/2005 11:11:18 AM)

She probably has a big photo of Iraqi looters being tortured on the wall of her dungeon. Way to go Mistress Rice.



onceburned -> RE: Our Next President?? (3/6/2005 3:37:53 PM)

quote:

Vegas was the announced venue, and, as someone pointed out, airfare/hotels ARE less expensive there, and since this is the first attempt to do something like this with this group maybe it's best to see exactly how many people can and will actually show up before making grander plans.


Cool! I am definitely interested but have a number of issues I need to iron out first. Still, it would be wonderful to meet with folks from around the country. Heck, just from trading messages I get a sense of a person and it would be nice to actually trade smiles.

Oh, and to get back on topic... this relates to corportate welfare and the prohlem of paying for health care:

quote:

Wal-Mart, the world’s largest retailer, tops a list of Iowa employers with the most workers who receive health care paid for by state taxpayers, according to documents obtained by The Associated Press.
.
Wal-Mart employs 845 workers in Iowa who received health benefits from the state’s Medicaid program last year, according to a report by the Iowa Department of Human Services. The report was obtained by the AP in a public records request.


http://www.qctimes.com/internal.php?story_id=1046701&l=1&t=Iowa+%2F+Illinois&c=24,1046701

The next time you check out at Wal-Mart, just think: "My tax dollars at work". [:)]



BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Our Next President?? (3/7/2005 12:44:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pantera
2 different things.
One thing is foreign aid, which is typically government (taxpayer) funded.

Foreign aid is help from one country to another who needs it because they are in difficult circumstances, how about starting at home? How about making decisions to make american life easier for more americans?...
I say that the playing field is not level in the US because Blacks were given unreasonable circumstances to start out with by working for free, than WE All inherited from their labor; I'm not talking about welfare. I'm simply saying that as long as we are going to be benevolent, why not be to people at home first.

Your favorite and I've no doubt Brilliant black writer is your favorite probably because he says what you like to hear... If you tell me you spoke with Cornel West or Henry Louis Gates, or Bell hooks, or Michael Dyson, or Tavis Smiley, than I'd be impressed that given all that info, you still hold your stance.
I don't expect reparations to come to pass ever. I would NEVER advocate to any race, especially black, to stay home and wait for reparations, since I think they have a better chance of seeing the second coming of christ. I'm simply saying things are imbalanced/unfair/unjust.
I'm not saying I'm fighting to get anything... I go to work, and provide for myself, I wait for no one, and if I become destitute, my family loves me enough to help me out. M



BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Our Next President?? (3/7/2005 1:20:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Everyone, regardless of age, race, or gender, better appreciate; they are owed NOTHING!

I disagree... Isn't this like saying your parents can work, but I will be inheriting the fruits of their labor?
quote:

After a couple of generations of social welfare all the US managed to accomplish was generating another generation of welfare recipients.

I wasn't talking about welfare, to me welfare is a trap to keep people from accomplishing anything; it's a devastating trap because if you work you won't have child care/health care/free higher education, and if you don't work you're permanently screwed with the minimum to survive on; it's no wonder people come up with ways to game the system
quote:

I'm quite aware that the greatest percentage of welfare recipients are not black. I'd eliminate every social welfare program, including those given to corporations.

Thanks for saying that, since that phrase usually drives me nuts as ignorant people think that is a black issue.
I would totally vote for you if you cut corporate welfare 1st, than welfare to the destitute.
quote:

Eliminating welfare after a specific time limit. But are is tow key issues not considered; medical insurance and child care. Under most welfare programs rudimentary medical insurance is available.

I agree... A lot of people I know on welfare are there because they cannot afford to come off of it; you simply cannot pay rent, all the bills, and has anyone noticed how Gas companies have us bent over non-consentually for heating/cooking? Why doesn't everyone/the government understand these things you state: make people go to work, but provide medical insurance for minors/help with childcare costs? Is that really too much to ask?

quote:

Our public schools have already given up any pretense of education and are already mostly day care. I think I'd need to bring someone into my cabinet to tackle this issue. At it's foundation there should be accountability. Accountability for the students AND the teachers.

I agree with you, but as out of control as children are nowadays with mishbehavior and excuses for everything, I wish teachers were allowed to beat them again. One of the things I wanted to be when I grew up was a teacher, until I saw how kids treat their teachers in middle and high school; Yikes, decided there is absolutely no way I want low paying/low respect and low reward job...

quote:

This may be true at the fast food restaurants and convenience stores but this is a fallacy at the professional or mid to upper management. There, you want someone to compliment your skills. Who brings to the management team a missing piece of the puzzle.

Merc, are you really telling me that you believe corporations will look at 5 individuals with similar skill levels/ability to contribute, and that the irish (hypotehetical) boss is going to hire the negro, instead of hiring another Irish?
quote:

ever see a white overweight 40+ year old working at Victoria's Secret?
No, but that's because no one has called them exotic yet; remember how a few years back you couldn't find a black woman, no matter how hot, on the cover of major mags? Fortunately enough men started desiring/jerking off to them, now we're equals, yeah, lol.
We're totally off on a tangent here. My whole point is that the playing where it needs to be for all, and more examination is needed before we can discard EEOC/AA. M



BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Our Next President?? (3/7/2005 1:38:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
I'll say that race and ethnic background play much less a role, and oft time NO role in hiring, compared to the past. I could rationalize that many times during the course of my career I wasn't hired because of my Italian background. Bitching about it or using it as an excuse not to try or quit was never an option.

I'll tell you what I replied to another earlier: I'm not telling you that injustices/prejudicial practices continue to exist because I want anything; I'm simply telling you because it's a fact many people live with.
I would never suggest to any black to stay home/complain/wait for just practices to begin or for reparations, since I think they're more likely to see the second coming of christ first.
quote:

I think that now, AA/EEOC policies are counter productive. I think that the public outcry and economic impact of prejudicial hiring make it nearly impossible for any company to discriminate.

Isn't that cute that in this day of scarce jobs and everyone else be damned, you think the public cares if hiring practices are being carried out equally, and treatment of workers in the workplace is being done fairly... The public cares about themselves, their homes, their money.
quote:

Exceptions, anomalies, last bastions, isolated pockets, still exist. But I think all the dinosaurs are at least locked in a tar pit and just about dead.

I wish that were true, but you couldn't be more wrong my friend! M



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