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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/15/2007 1:51:44 PM   
LadyEllen


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Well thanks for the vote of confidence, Rule! (I'm taking your nomination to the status of divine as that, since I'll be the first to recognise that I'm all too human!)

Although, by "science types", I did more specifically want the verdicts of those who trumpet science above "God" as a means of dismissing "God", rather than from yourself in this instance (pioneering scientist though you undoubtedly are).

I expect most will not respond however, seeing a trap. But its not a trap laid with evil intent, whatever may be thought of it.

E

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/15/2007 7:16:25 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Are you simply not paying attention, Sinergy, that you do not understand the simple things that I am saying and that you respond in such an inappropriate way? Or do I not express myself as clearly as I think I do? How could you possibly twist what I said into your conclusion that I said that gravity is an assumption?



I would go with the latter.

You stated that "physicists assume it must be gravity."  I simply took your words at face value.

The problem with the rest of it is that if matter behaves in certain defineable ways at levels from subatomic (as far down as we can see) to planetary and solar system size, why would it suddenly behave differently at the level of galaxies?

I am curious why you think that objects rotating around each other qualifies as "odd behavior."  Have you ever flushed a toilet?  Why does the water rotate in the bowl rather than just run out all at once?

Sinergy

p.s. I do understand that toilet bowls flush the opposite direction on the other side of the equator.

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/15/2007 7:19:09 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Serendipity - propensity for finding things by chance or in unexpected places. (Dictionary of difficult words)
 
The concept is usually used in science in the sense of looking for X and accidentally and fortunately happening to see the unexpected Y: a serendipitous discovery.
 
But you are correct as well: coincidence is not the correct word either. How about a 'seeming coincidence' - something that looks like a coincidence, but is not a coincidence?


Know those little post-it notes people stick everywhere?

The guy who invented them was trying to develop a glue, and his experiment "failed."

Serendipity.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/15/2007 7:56:03 PM   
Amaros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I'm sorry. I'm trying to stay out of this as its a pretty pointless debate all in all. But I cant get this out of my head.

As I've mentioned on another similar thread in the past, some years ago I experienced an instant of total clarity, total awareness of the universe - an incredible few seconds which seemed like much longer, and total unity with (for want of a better expression) "God". Its something I've never experienced again since, but then its also something which I will never forget. Its something that occurred involuntarily, though I had been meditating (in my own peculiar fashion!) when it occurred. Its something that impressed me beyond any power of words to describe properly.

So, I'd like to ask the science types here, what their opinion of this is;

a) Am I telling the truth BUT it was a psychotic experience or similar?
b) Am I a liar?
c) Am I telling the truth AND this was a genuine experience?

E



That's called a "flashback".

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/15/2007 8:19:51 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I'm sorry. I'm trying to stay out of this as its a pretty pointless debate all in all. But I cant get this out of my head.

As I've mentioned on another similar thread in the past, some years ago I experienced an instant of total clarity, total awareness of the universe - an incredible few seconds which seemed like much longer, and total unity with (for want of a better expression) "God". Its something I've never experienced again since, but then its also something which I will never forget. Its something that occurred involuntarily, though I had been meditating (in my own peculiar fashion!) when it occurred. Its something that impressed me beyond any power of words to describe properly.

So, I'd like to ask the science types here, what their opinion of this is;

a) Am I telling the truth BUT it was a psychotic experience or similar?
b) Am I a liar?
c) Am I telling the truth AND this was a genuine experience?

E



That's called a "flashback".



Sure, I suppose you had what you consider a genuine experience.

I will let you know when/if the rest of us have similar genuine experiences.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/15/2007 8:31:11 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

p.s. I do understand that toilet bowls flush the opposite direction on the other side of the equator.


I went to New Zealand twice and forgot to check both times! Drives me nuts.

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/15/2007 8:33:34 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Know those little post-it notes people stick everywhere?
The guy who invented them was trying to develop a glue, and his experiment "failed."


And according to a friend whose dad worked for 3M, the company almost didn't produce them. Apparently, the projected profits weren't impressive enough.



< Message edited by dcnovice -- 1/15/2007 8:39:36 PM >

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/15/2007 8:58:49 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Know those little post-it notes people stick everywhere?
The guy who invented them was trying to develop a glue, and his experiment "failed."


And according to a friend whose dad worked for 3M, the company almost didn't produce them. Apparently, the projected profits weren't impressive enough.




What company in it's right mind would want to throw money at a glue that doesnt work?

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/15/2007 9:15:55 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
I would go with the latter.

But I have sufficient reason to conclude it is the former.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
You stated that "physicists assume it must be gravity."  I simply took your words at face value.

The law of Murphy applies.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
The problem with the rest of it is that if matter behaves in certain defineable ways at levels from subatomic (as far down as we can see) to planetary and solar system size, why would it suddenly behave differently at the level of galaxies?

It does not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
I am curious why you think that objects rotating around each other qualifies as "odd behavior."  Have you ever flushed a toilet?  Why does the water rotate in the bowl rather than just run out all at once?

I must conclude that you do not know what you are talking about. (The subject was 'dark matter'. Wikipedia may tell you all about it that you do not know, I imagine - which is a lot.)

Serendipitously I have discovered that it is possible to block someone's posts while not logged in. I consider that to be amazing.


< Message edited by Rule -- 1/15/2007 9:16:25 PM >

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/15/2007 9:28:03 PM   
Zensee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I'm sorry. I'm trying to stay out of this as its a pretty pointless debate all in all. But I cant get this out of my head.

As I've mentioned on another similar thread in the past, some years ago I experienced an instant of total clarity, total awareness of the universe - an incredible few seconds which seemed like much longer, and total unity with (for want of a better expression) "God". Its something I've never experienced again since, but then its also something which I will never forget. Its something that occurred involuntarily, though I had been meditating (in my own peculiar fashion!) when it occurred. Its something that impressed me beyond any power of words to describe properly.

So, I'd like to ask the science types here, what their opinion of this is;

a) Am I telling the truth BUT it was a psychotic experience or similar?
b) Am I a liar?
c) Am I telling the truth AND this was a genuine experience?

E



Are these the only possibilities to chose from? Must I call you a liar to disagree with some detail? I hope not.

I would say you had an intense, profound experience, which was neither psychotic nor delusional. However, I would suggest your interpretation of that overwhelming event is questionable. Coming as a bolt from the blue and without any formal context, it is no surprise you might believe it came from without and connected you with a being, awareness, presence you called God.

Such experiences can be both accidental and intentional. It can happen individually or to groups of people. It can result from meditation, prayer, illness, injury, exhaustion, drug use, trauma or intense emotional states. It can be induced and if you pick the right meditative method you can have that experience again, as often as you please.

The first time I had such an experience was at xtian summer camp. It resulted from a combination of puberty (the lighting of the "spiritual torch), isolation (my first long separation from family and friends), constant indoctrination, exposure to the compelling images of hell and heaven, the sympathetic presence of others having similar "revelations" and the relentless social pressure to conform with my peers. Of course I believed that Jesus was the source of my ecstatic experience.

It took years for me to realise that while ecstatic states are the bread and butter of many religions, they are a personal, self generated experience, unconnected to dogma.

Z.


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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/15/2007 9:48:32 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
I would go with the latter.

But I have sufficient reason to conclude it is the former.




I am reasonably certain you are not going to share your reasoning.

Hey, if it works for you, go with it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
You stated that "physicists assume it must be gravity."  I simply took your words at face value
quote:


The law of Murphy applies.



If something (in this case, that would be your post) is wrong, it will be wrong.

Got it.

quote:


quote:


the problem with the rest of it is that if matter behaves in certain defineable ways at levels from subatomic (as far down as we can see) to planetary and solar system size, why would it suddenly behave differently at the level of galaxies?

It does not.


And we should all take your word on this.

Got it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
quote:


I am curious why you think that objects rotating around each other qualifies as "odd behavior."  Have you ever flushed a toilet?  Why does the water rotate in the bowl rather than just run out all at once?


I must conclude that you do not know what you are talking about. (The subject was 'dark matter'. Wikipedia may tell you all about it that you do not know, I imagine - which is a lot.)

Serendipitously I have discovered that it is possible to block someone's posts while not logged in. I consider that to be amazing.



Yes, if one cannot intelligently debate another person, the easy way out is to simply block them and pretend that one has argued or debated coherently.  Serendipitously for you, this works whether or not the other person is logged in or not. 

I know quite a bit about dark matter.  Most of which I did not learn googling the subject and getting my information from sources that are not peer reviewed.

As I said, if it works for you, go with it.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/16/2007 8:11:42 AM   
Amaros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Sure, I suppose you had what you consider a genuine experience.

I will let you know when/if the rest of us have similar genuine experiences.

Sinergy


Why yes, in fact I did, and do - although this has no bearing on my comment to the esteemed Lady Ellen, for among my revelations, the ability to discern the "genuineness" of subjective experience over the internet was not included - I was ribbing her in vain hopes of lightening this thread up, and I have no reason to doubt that her experience was genuine no matter how or why it occured.

If you have some insight into the cause, nature and effects of such experiences, please, by all means share your expertise with us, I myself have studied, and still study the phenomona extensively, and am always willing, even eager to entertain new viewpoints.

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/16/2007 8:48:30 AM   
meatcleaver


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A couple of years ago I was seriously ill and I mean seriously ill and I had very vivid hallucinations and they felt very real at the time I experienced them. I even had an out of body experience which was very convincing but I have to admit as I was apparently scanning the room and I became aware enough to ask myself a question, it suddenly ended. I never considered these to be anything other than symptoms of my illness and its treatment despite the convincing nature of them. I ended up chatting with my consultant about them and he gave me an interesting list of books of case historys. It is just amazing what people experience. There was one woman who tried to escape a man that was following her and fled to Canada, while at the same time knowing this character was a figment of her imagination. Another one was of a business woman who had a business partner who advised her on every decision she made about her business. However, this business partner didn't exist and her talking to this partner was creating its own problems for her so she was persuaded into getting help. Once she was 'cured' and this character disappeared, she found she couldn't function because she didn't trust her own judgement. Apparently a lot of such phenomenon come from communication between the left and right side of the brain breaking down or some other neuro malfunction. Fascinating stuff. I'm not saying that people's experiences are some sort of neuro misfirings but the endless fascinating experiences people have had due to the complexity of the brain and its software are something to behold.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/16/2007 8:51:49 AM >


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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/16/2007 9:40:10 AM   
Amaros


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The Shamanic experience typically involves serious illness and recovery - in essence, in "crossing over", and coming back, the individual becomes a Shaman, furnished with a mystical insight into the nature of illness itself, which to some degree, is empirically known to include significant psychosomatic factors in terms of both cause and effect.

While only a certain percentage of ilnesses are psychosomatic by cause, people can literally "think themselves to death", and by the same token,  psychosomatic factors can speed recovory and healing of explicitly somatic illness.

In any case, the experince itself and the subsequent assimilation of it are two entirely different factors, IMO - in a culture such as ours that officially and routinely dismisses such psychological phenomona as delusion, there is no formal system for assimilating the experience other than objective analysis, or shaking ones head. This leaves the assimilation up to random chance, more or less.

There is no such thing as randomness of course, only exceedingly complex patterns - which observation itself is part of the particular nature of my insight, and not uncommon.








< Message edited by Amaros -- 1/16/2007 9:47:38 AM >

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/16/2007 10:22:26 AM   
Amaros


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A similar experience, Satori, is expressed in trancendental religions.

Going back to the comment on flashbacks, it wasn't entirely spurious - LSD-25 operates on the brain by super-oxygenating the tissues; the resulting effects are similar to schizophrenia: aural, visual and olifactory hallucinations, etc. the difference being that drug induced changes of consciousness are typically deprived of emotional context, i.e., they only simulate experience, which is a process of both rational and emotional assimilation.

The pathology of schizophrenia is that the neurons of the brain begin firing randomly (!) en masse - i.e., whereas normally synaptic activity is confined to fairly predictable patterns, a schizophrenic episode is something like a "Brainstorm" with almost all synapses firing at once in surges.

My theory is, that this lowers the limnal barrier between conscious, rational processes, and the symbolic processes of the sub and unconscious - hence, the vivid hallucinations, etc. Memory processing is largely unconscious and symbolic, and the brain has it's own ways of mapping and associating information, and these again, are not rational processes, but symbolic.

Thus, when they expressed on the rational side, they appear to make no sense - in fact they may be perfectly sensible in the context of other symbolic processes, and only irrational when taken out of context, so to speak. Naturally, the consciousness attempts to organize and control this flood of information, and the result may be paranoid fantsies, catatonia, ecstatic or otherwise, or other coping mechanisms.

Personally, I would be inclined to suggest that Yogic/Tantric spiritual practices might help some schizophrenics to channel their coping mechanisms in positive ways, and in fact, these practices constitute an entire linguistic/symbolic mode of discussing these phenomona at all that is relatively absent from Western modes of dealing with unusual psychological phenomona. Obsessive compulsive behaviour, idée fixe, etc., typical symptoms of schizophrenia could be channeled into organized mental activity through meditation, mantras, mandalas, etc., and such practices are fundamentally concerned with and ordered around psychosomatic feedback.

Just a thought, perhaps Lady Ellen has some more insights on this. And it's also worth mentioning that the simple social stress of getting so... weird can create issues that can rival and exacerbate the disease itself.

It's been said that genius is akin to madness, and it isn't uncommon for geniuses to exhibit symptoms of mental illness - it may well be that through incipent schizophrenia, or some phenomona similar to it, that they have some more direct access to these symbolic processes, i.e., the unconscious.

Like, schizophrenia, the phenomona seems to be associated with an onset sometime around the age of thirty - mathmaticians are said to peak at around the age of thirty, and it may have something to do with the maturation of the brain with respect to these symbolic processes - in schizophrenia, the process simply get out of control in some way.

And, of course in the case of highly creative/intelligent individuals with distinctly schizophrenic symptoms, in the end, madness often wins, at least for a time.







< Message edited by Amaros -- 1/16/2007 10:27:12 AM >

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/17/2007 5:42:20 PM   
Sinergy


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Hello A/all,

Thank you for that lucid analysis, Amaros.  I had the opportunity to study (was working on a degree in teaching children with neurological deficits) some aspects of neurology, but your cogent description of satori was wonderful to read.

I did have a couple of comments.

I was reading about testing use of CAT (if I remember right) scan technologies as feedback tools.  A person with, say, uncontrollable seizures is hooked up to a machine which monitors brain activities and taught to alter their brain activity based on what the screen tells them.  This becomes important because if they learn a certain thought pattern which causes certain brain wave activity, and they feel an aura (precursor to seizure activity) they can concentrate on the brain wave activity they want and avoid seizing.

I have not really gone deeply into the research on using this sort of things for other issues, but it seems to me that it might be possible.  What I found most fascinating was a bunch of Buddhist monks (Tibetan) whose practice includes meditation in sub-zero temperatures overnight allowed themselves to be hooked up to CAT scans and had their brain waves monitored the entire time.   I am uncertain how the water in their cells refused to freeze, but I did find it pretty fascinating to read.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/17/2007 11:38:32 PM   
SusanofO


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God wrote me a letter. It came Federal Express today.

He says to tell ya'll that - He does, in fact, exist, and He is following this thread with interest. He said a bunch of people "up there" are reading it every night and eating popcorn - and laughing.

They can't believe this thread has lasted as long as it has - but they are enjoying the view, so to speak.

(I am just teasing ya'll - have fun)!

- Susan 

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 1/17/2007 11:40:12 PM >


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That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/18/2007 8:35:03 AM   
Amaros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Hello A/all,

Thank you for that lucid analysis, Amaros.  I had the opportunity to study (was working on a degree in teaching children with neurological deficits) some aspects of neurology, but your cogent description of satori was wonderful to read.

I did have a couple of comments.

I was reading about testing use of CAT (if I remember right) scan technologies as feedback tools.  A person with, say, uncontrollable seizures is hooked up to a machine which monitors brain activities and taught to alter their brain activity based on what the screen tells them.  This becomes important because if they learn a certain thought pattern which causes certain brain wave activity, and they feel an aura (precursor to seizure activity) they can concentrate on the brain wave activity they want and avoid seizing.

I have not really gone deeply into the research on using this sort of things for other issues, but it seems to me that it might be possible.  What I found most fascinating was a bunch of Buddhist monks (Tibetan) whose practice includes meditation in sub-zero temperatures overnight allowed themselves to be hooked up to CAT scans and had their brain waves monitored the entire time.   I am uncertain how the water in their cells refused to freeze, but I did find it pretty fascinating to read.

Sinergy


I heard about something many years ago - Peter Townsend used something like that to kick heroin - I think I might have read about it ina Rolling Stone interview, but never heard anything more about it. I'd be very interested in any information/resources on it you might have, I'm very interested in the whole notion of biofeedback.

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/18/2007 8:48:29 AM   
Amaros


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During my particular "peak experience", which was stress and not drug induced, I experinced another phenomona: a spontaneous physical manifestation of kinesthetic an behavioral traits I did not previously possess. My current hypothesis involves "junk" DNA and a stress triggered unfolding/refolding of the genome - this appears to occur in certain plants and  microoganisms, and is sometimes called Stationary Phase Mutation - my hypothesis is ahead of the science at this point unfortunately. Basically, my conjecture is that junk DNA is a sort of library of past adaptations that were successful but have been replaced by more modern or more successful traits. If I'm right, it could explain how starvation and/or social deprivation stressors can induce psychopathy, some forms of which appear to be heritable.

Whatever it was, although it really only involved some fairly subtle (non-psychopathic) changes, it was profound enough to cause a bit of a stir and drop a few jaws.

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/18/2007 10:14:56 AM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL Amoros
I experinced another phenomona: a spontaneous physical manifestation of kinesthetic an behavioral traits I did not previously possess.


Wots that then ?

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