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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/10/2007 5:44:13 AM

adaddysgirl

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i guess i did not read the previous religion thread so i did not see what was said. But for me, i absolutely and unequivocally believe in both a Higher Power and afterlife. i guess i should also add that i really don't care who agrees or disagrees with my beliefs, nor do i care if they believe in the same. my spiritual faith is not contingent on what others think of me nor how they judge 'my reality'. They can take it or leave it. And i feel no need to justify exactly what it is i believe in either.

The best book i've ever read in my life was Conversations with God (Part I). It took me 6 months to read that book because i had to keep putting it down to 'think'....and digest. That book made a lot of sense to me and has influenced my life ever since.

There's a lot of things in my life that i have to be concerned with but my faith is certainly not one of them. i have peace of mind with it....and that's all that really matters for me.

DG

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 41

RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/10/2007 5:44:32 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
SusanO and Seeks appear to believe in something that exists in their imagination

Their imagination is larger than the imagination of Satan.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
and which doesn't possess any objective characteristics that can be presented as evidence that their version of truth exists.

Precisely. They get it, whereas you do not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
I read the other thread but never noticed any objective evidence to prove what you described as the divine to exist anywhere but in your head.

And how did I define the Divine?

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
As for worshiping you, thanks but no thanks, that honour stays with my local bar owner. :-)

lol. Maybe there is hope for you yet. ;-)

< Message edited by Rule -- 1/10/2007 5:45:13 AM >

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 42

RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/10/2007 5:49:15 AM

aviinterra

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quote:

The only reasons religion is not foisted on us today and we are not tortured, burnt at the stake or garotted for not believing is because science won the intellectual argument and it is science and reason, ironically, that has won people their religious freedom.

I think you are mistaken right there. There have been numerous, ancient cultures which encouraged religious freedom. In Babylon, every God was welcome, as in Rome, where every religion was explored in a constant intellectual comparison and journey to find the answers to those unanswerable questions. What you are saying - burnt at the stake, etc. - is a medieval concept that is rooted in the politics of the Vatican and Europe at that time, not in faith in God. The Pope was a ruler among an elite of other rulers, who had his own army and a cart blanche in some other foreign countries. To disagree with his theories, preferences and edicts usurped his political power- none of this ever had anything to do with the existance of God. Heresy was often a very political matter. The Enlightment sought to find God through science, and in the early studies of cells and stars, scholars claimed to find affirmation of their faith, minus the political leash of the Vatican. The Reniassance sought through the study of classical reasoning to do the same, but it was squashed by Savenarola and the Vatican- you guessed it- for political reasons that threatened the might of the Pope, who had the power to put kings on thrones. It was and is faith in God that pushes men to science, without it, science would probably not exist.

Edited because I screwed up the quote. :)

< Message edited by aviinterra -- 1/10/2007 5:50:30 AM >

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 43

RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/10/2007 6:20:20 AM

eyesopened

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

i have never heard that those who lean toward Intelligent design have ever claimed the world is no older than 6,000 years old. Please provide evidence that the Theory of Intelligent Design makes such a claim. And not just the opinion of some crack-pot "evangelist... some real evidence. i must be really really off the wall that i lean toward Intelligent Design but know for a fact that the earth is roughly 4.5 billion years old. There is even some evidence that the original construction of the Sphinx could be older than 10,000 years old although many egyptologists would rather not speculate.

The point of the Intelligent Design theory is to prove creationism and support what is written in the bible to be literal under the guise of what its proponents pass as science. If you don't believe in the bible being literal and believe the universe to be older than it is stated in the bible, you don't believe in intelligent design. You might well believe in a divine origin of the universe but that is not of itself Intelligent Design.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creationism scroll down to Intelligent Design

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/cosmo.html

http://www.theistic-evolution.com/design.html

http://www.slate.com/id/2118388/

Thank you. i read each link and it would seem that "young earth creationists" comprise a very small number of folks who would believe in an Intelligent Design Theory. The links primarily talk about teaching alternate theories in science classes rather than only one theory as an effort to skew thinking that evolution is the only explaination of our existance. We need to be careful about painting with that broad brush again. We can't say "all christians are snake-handlers" just because there are obscure sects that do or that all Jews wear beards and broad-rimmed hats or that all atheists are immoral because there is certainly evidence to the contrary in all cases.

Again, what is the point of this thread other than to try to shame all who believe in a Power outside themselves into being 'wrong'? The thread cannot possibly come to any other conclusion than the previous on the same subject.

_____________________________

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Post #: 44

RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/10/2007 6:36:12 AM

Rule

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It is one of those "because I cannot perceive nor conceive of the colour blue, everybody else who does must be crazy"-threads. It reminds me of the blind man who was a member of an advise group on colour (hearsay, but it appears to have really happened here in The Netherlands).

Well, at least if not me, mc now worships his local bar owner. That will do just fine.

(in reply to eyesopened)

Post #: 45

RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/10/2007 7:09:40 AM

seeksfemslave

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Many posters, but Meatcleaver in particular, consistantly claim that only hard evidence is sufficient to convince them of the existence of a Deity.

Well Electro Magnetic Radiation cannot be experienced DIRECTLY, except ultimately by the way our Brain works, usually via a transducer of some sort.
EXACTLY analogous to the method of positing or at least not discounting the existence of a Deity. Admittedly no transducer exists lol.

Rule in his somewhat eccentric approach to things points to a logical flaw in what may be called the Meatcleaver outlook. We are discussing the existence of a Deity, not the philosophies , ie Religions, that exist as a consequence of those who experience say a divinely inspired revelation.

I have said many times I am an Agnostic but just feel when I look at Nature and apparently infinite Space/Time.......These things are greater than our intellectual capacity to grasp....as is hard proof of that Meatcleaver requires

(in reply to Rule)

Post #: 46

RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/10/2007 7:24:27 AM

SusanofO

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meatcleaver: With all due respect, I am not arguing with atheists, Ever again. I've been around this block. I've concluded what I need to conclude, for myself. But - your adamant stance has urged me to put forth, once more, my own (possibly incorrrect) conclusion that most atheists I've met -

1) Don't have a problem with the possible existence of God, they instead actually seem to have a terrific problem with the existence of religion (sometimes all religions, sometimes just a particular religion and all of its perceived (by them) faults and failings and misuses by feeble, imperfect humans), two ideas and things which are, btw, very different animals from eachother.

And 2) Their (or anyone's) railing against "fervent", possibly "misguided" and-or "superstitious" belief in God by "Believers" does not, in any way, disprove the existence of God. It might not prove God's existence - and it most certainly does not disprove it.

As far as my personal opinion on what "motivates" scientific investigation, I cannot imagine why Copernicus, for example, without anything more than an intuitive hunch, (and no "proof") even bothered to investigate whether or not the Earth revolved around the sun, for example.

And, in fact, I believe this kind of "faith" (in an idea) is what does motivate much scientific investigation. Which in turn allows for experimentation, which may either "prove or disprove" the "hunch" (or not). Eventually. So I believe your supposition that scientists don't have faith in things they cannot see is just flat out wrong, my friend. Without it, I think much scientific curiosity, and consequent discovery, would not exist at all, in fact.

seeksfemslave: Thanks. I appreciate your post, and also what you said about electrico-magnetic theory, too.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 1/10/2007 8:13:57 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
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And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 47

RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/10/2007 7:52:54 AM

meatcleaver

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Belief in a deity usually boils down to people being unable to imagine the universe existing without their ego, even though the universe happily existed for billions of years before their ego existed. I often wonder what people would think if there was a deity and they still ceased to be after they had died. That would be the mother of all jokes.

I would imagine Capernicus wanted to know if the world went around the sun because he had learnt that is what Greeks had believed that or at least some had observed the fact or maybe he was just a curious person who wanted to know how the universe worked and not blindly believe what the ill educated and superstitious told him.

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Post #: 48

RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/10/2007 7:53:53 AM

SusanofO

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

Some people believe there is a Power greater than themselves and a Force of nature that has yet to be named anything other than "god". Some people don't believe there is anything other than what is observed. How then do we know space is infanite? i have yet to see any proof of evolution and even today Darwin's Theory remains theory. Evidence that it might be true? Maybe. But for people who espouse the Theory of Intelligent Design can also find similar evidence.

Some people are not going to be happy until all the world sees through their eyes and the only conclusion is that those people will never be happy.

eyesopened: I really liked this. A LOT.

- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to eyesopened)

Post #: 49

RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/10/2007 8:03:19 AM

SusanofO

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

"Belief in a deity usually boils down to people being unable to imagine the universe existing without their ego",

Hmmm. This might seem true to you, meatcleaver - but to me, this above statement seems to be pretty predjudicial. I would never take is as "fact" that's for sure. It is definitely one opinion, though.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 1/10/2007 8:04:12 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 50

RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/10/2007 8:04:00 AM

meatcleaver

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Utopianranger hit on something in another thread where he was talking about the neo-cons philosophy of using politics, religion and myth to keep people in clueless servitude. Believing in belief without really knowing what one believes in is a way of keeping oneself in that clueless servitude. If one is capable of merely believing for believings sake and claim some sort of respect for holding that position, how can one argue against politicians going to war for what they believe in, simply because it is what they believe or what they believe some diety thinks they should believe.

Clear as mud isn't it?

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Post #: 51

RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/10/2007 8:09:30 AM

SusanofO

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meatcleaver: Misuse (perceived or "true") of any belief in God, does not disprove the reality of that belief. It might not prove it, but it certainly doesn't disprove it.

I would happily go to my grave never having heard a universal definition of "the truth". It supposedly to some, means "verifiable". Well - define "verifiable".

Defintion of terms such as these can just go on forever. Some people can't define these terms in any but a universal way - and with their brains almost on the verge of explosion, they conclude there are, in fact, things which cannot be "proven" which still do, in fact, seem to exist. Even if they don't admit it to themselves, I think.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 1/10/2007 8:24:11 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 52

RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/10/2007 8:15:27 AM

eyesopened

Posts: 2798
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From: Tampa, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Belief in a deity usually boils down to people being unable to imagine the universe existing without their ego, even though the universe happily existed for billions of years before their ego existed. I often wonder what people would think if there was a deity and they still ceased to be after they had died. That would be the mother of all jokes.

I would imagine Capernicus wanted to know if the world went around the sun because he had learnt that is what Greeks had believed that or at least some had observed the fact or maybe he was just a curious person who wanted to know how the universe worked and not blindly believe what the ill educated and superstitious told him.

Do we exist without our ego??? Again, even the universe we can obseve for ourselves is only a picture of how the universe WAS millions of years ago. How do you know the constellation of Orion exists at this very moment? You don't. The perception is reality because there is no other way to relate to the stars in the sky. To know that the star you see may not exist doesn't stop you from seeing it. It can't be proven one way or the other.

Hawking explains in his A Brief History of Time, that Einstein's general theory of relativity implies the universe nust have had a beginning, and possibly, an end. Some folks may call the cause of that beginning and end "God" only because a more definitive name for this Force has yet to be discovered by science. Susan of O is absolutely correct in her observation that drilled down to its core, more people are anti-religion than pure atheist. i believe in God as i understand It. i see the color blue in various hues, shades, values and intensities. i cannot make nor should i make others see the same as me.

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Post #: 53

RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/10/2007 8:27:23 AM

eyesopened

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*laughs* when i die and find out i'm wrong about God and life after death what have i lost? i wink out of existance and become fertilizer. i fail to see the problem. And it i'm not wrong, what have i lost?

_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

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Post #: 54

RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/10/2007 8:35:18 AM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

*laughs* when i die and find out i'm wrong about God and life after death what have i lost? i wink out of existance and become fertilizer. i fail to see the problem. And it i'm not wrong, what have i lost?

A nice variant on Pascal's wager but still as fallacious as the original. Do you worship Odin? What about Kali? Coyote? What if the real deity is one who detests and punishes anyone who worships any other deity but rewards those who don't?

You're quite welcome to worship any deity you choose as long as you leave me alone but don't try and apply logic to it.

(in reply to eyesopened)

Post #: 55

RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/10/2007 9:00:38 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Do you worship Odin? What about Kali? Coyote?

All gods are aspects and parts of the Divine, as is the least particle in our universe.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
What if the real deity is one who detests and punishes anyone who worships any other deity but rewards those who don't?

The God of the Dead is lenient and does not waste. Whatever any other diety ordains does not affect his decision. I suspect that only the defective are discarded.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 56

RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/10/2007 9:24:24 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Whatever any other diety ordains does not affect his decision. I suspect that only the defective are discarded.

You mean a sort of spiritual eugenics programme, extinguishing handicapped or lesser spirits?

_____________________________

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Post #: 57

RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/10/2007 9:39:53 AM

eyesopened

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

*laughs* when i die and find out i'm wrong about God and life after death what have i lost? i wink out of existance and become fertilizer. i fail to see the problem. And it i'm not wrong, what have i lost?

A nice variant on Pascal's wager but still as fallacious as the original. Do you worship Odin? What about Kali? Coyote? What if the real deity is one who detests and punishes anyone who worships any other deity but rewards those who don't?

You're quite welcome to worship any deity you choose as long as you leave me alone but don't try and apply logic to it.

*laughs* Exactly! i have never tried to prove my position or expect others to accept it. i still wonder what the purpose of these threads are if not to shove a particular way of thinking down my throat. i don't want anyone shoving their beliefs in whatever they believe, i just think it's wrong to assert that there is only one "real" and "true" way to look at things. *laughs* Don't we get enough of the "true" and "real" arguments about Doms and subs?

_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

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Post #: 58

RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/10/2007 9:47:26 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
You mean a sort of spiritual eugenics programme, extinguishing handicapped or lesser spirits?

To me it makes sense that the theory of evolution does not only apply to the living organisms, but after death also to their spiritual essence. Whether a plant, or a bacterium, or - yea - even a worshipper of a local bar owner, there will be resurrection as one life form or another - perhaps even as a human being; unless defective, of course.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 59

RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/10/2007 10:23:58 AM

seeksfemslave

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To those confirmed Atheists:
If the profound mystery of conception and childbirth in all its grisly detail, I refer to both stages lol, the finely balanced and !!phantasmogorically !! complex processes that promote and control development of life forms....if the existence of such things does not dent your confidence in the certainty of your disbelief then I think it is you who lack imagination, not believers or Agnostics.

(in reply to Rule)

Post #: 60

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