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RE: There is No Penn Jillette by GOD - 1/12/2007 11:04:52 AM   
stef


Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
Status: offline 		When god has his own cable series, let me know.

~stef

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"Hypocrisy has consequences"

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/12/2007 11:05:10 AM   
SirDiscipliner69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou


No one here can claim not having at least one belief not based on proof.

I believe you gave Me a headache and My head hurts now.
I better go have sex to make it go away now.

Ross

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/12/2007 11:08:58 AM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
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From: None of your business
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

We do those things because they are useful , not because there is some truth value to them.

You are comparing belief to a variety of things like emotions, pleasure and ethics. That's like comparing apples to rocketships.

BTW, you haven't made your point at all.


It's not really comparing rocketships to apples.

You are so obsessed, with the minutia of things like evolution, and god's physical existance, you miss the point of the concept.

God is more related to government than science. It sets up standards for human interaction and rewards punishments. Where is the real importance in the flood besides the lesson that unruly immoral behaviour is bad (agreed, disagree)?

If you agree government or civilization in general is based around unprovable concepts such as right and wrong, which as a society we treat as fact(most do anyway). (agree, disagree)?

Then god is nothing more than an idealized form of human interaction(civilization) followed by the believers in god.

It isn't based on fact, it can't be because it is a social construct. Get it.

You are focusing on the small little tangent lines where it nudges science. And even where it nudges those questions aren't of immediate consequence. So what the hell is the big deal.


I don't think there is a God, but it's no different than most beliefs people hold that is the point.



(in reply to Chaingang)
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RE: There is No Penn Jillette by GOD - 1/12/2007 11:12:36 AM   
SirDiscipliner69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

When god has his own cable series, let me know.

I believe it is called life steph.... If you want to make God laugh, tell him your future plans steph. If it turns out that there is a God, I don't think that he's evil. But the worst that you can say about him is that basically he's an underachiever . I know you wish if only God would give you some clear sign! Like making a large deposit in your name at a Swiss bank.
 
Ross



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Profile   Post #: 124
RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/12/2007 11:12:56 AM   
aviinterra


Posts: 208
Joined: 11/3/2006
Status: offline 		Again, it is interesting that most atheists equate attacking the validity of religion with the existence of God. And it is also interesting to me that they all almost always focus on the Christian God, forgetting that devoid of all religious constructs, God is a vague notion that exists in every culture and society in the world, whether in one for or another or in many. How many civilizations can be named that were atheist? The later manipulation of the belief in God by rulers can not be used as an argument against the existence of God either. Somehow, I can not be so sure that millions of our ancestors were completely wrong and that suddenly our generation finally has the truth (what a concept, I bet no other generation had thought they were the best and brightest - insert sarcasm ).

(in reply to Chaingang)
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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/12/2007 11:31:16 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Deists believe there is a god who lit the blue touch paper and stood back and accept beyond that they know absolutely nothing about a deity's purpose or even if there is one. I have some sympathy with that view. However, most people who proffess to believe in a god don't admit they haven't a clue as to what is in god's mind (assuming god has a mind) but appear to know something of god's intent. We are here to learn, homosexuals are a perversion of god's work, god is love (despite all the evidence to opposite, if he exists that is). The moment someone says they have a sense of god's intent, what they are here for etc. etc.  is the moment someone has a religion.

WARNING This is a repeat. :- Intent is the operative word because it appears to be in the make up of the human brain to give the animate and inanimate intent and this is probably the origin of god, a evolutionary by-product.

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/12/2007 11:35:43 AM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

WARNING This is a repeat.

Everything you post on this topic is a repeat.  Give the red smear on the pavement that was once your very own personal dead horse a break. 

~stef

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Welcome to PoliticSpace! If you came here expecting meaningful BDSM discussions, boy are you in the wrong place.

"Hypocrisy has consequences"

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Profile   Post #: 127
RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/12/2007 11:44:42 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aviinterra

"There are no atheists in foxholes or cockpits." W. Churchill


aviinterra:
To my knowledge Churchill was never in a foxhole or a cockpit....on the other hand I have been in both and I always felt that my survival was dependant on my talent and courage and the talent and courage of those I was with and not on the hand of some mystical puppeteer. 
I have seen the bodies of the believers and the non believers and the only difference was listed on their dog tags.

thompson

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Profile   Post #: 128
RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/12/2007 11:53:18 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Look, there is god and he's a decent enough chap...........white beard, peaceful, live and let live attitude, left-wing........and loads of angels all lapping at his balls............life's good etc. Then there is the holy trinity. Ask anyone who is the holy trinity and they'll say......"well, there's god and ermmmm the other one.....and errmmmm him too". Then there's the devil. He's not so bad himself although catch him on a bad day and he'll cast you into an evening with thatcher. He has horns, a fork and a tail and he has a flat next door to Donald Rumsfeld. That's all you need to know. End of thread.

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/12/2007 11:53:57 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		I dont believe Churchill would have found himself in a cockpit, though he could well have been in a foxhole at some point I suppose.

He fought in some minor war we were involved in, in his youth; took part in the last cavalry charge by British forces there apparently.

How he'd have got the horse in the foxhole is another matter though.

E

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/12/2007 12:03:58 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		NorthernGent:
Hmmmmm...I guess you did not get the memo about Sodom and Gamora, the Great Flood and Hell.  From what I have read he or she  is not a very nice bloke.  Errr what is the feminine form of bloke mate?
thompson

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 131
RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/12/2007 12:14:23 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		You know what thompson, I know fuck all about the whole thing. All I know is I've never seen god and I've never seen the devil so as far as I'm concerned they're just a figment of an over-active imagination fuelled by a few too many vitamin c drinks.

The feminine of bloke is lass. I always imagined the devil as an impotent mischevious fella who spends his time playing weak practical jokes like standing with his cock out pretending to be a door (at Hampton Court).

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 132
RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/12/2007 12:18:34 PM   
thompsonx


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Status: offline 		NorthernGent:
Lass ehh....I was hoping for blokette.
thompson

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Profile   Post #: 133
RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/12/2007 12:19:24 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

WARNING This is a repeat.

Everything you post on this topic is a repeat.  Give the red smear on the pavement that was once your very own personal dead horse a break. 

~stef


I never give anything a break, especially fantasists and fundies, be they of the christian, islamic or the 'I know he's there' variety and as long as there is a red smear on the pavement I'll carry on whipping.

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/12/2007 12:22:38 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

NorthernGent:
Lass ehh....I was hoping for blokette.
thompson


Hey, thompson, Londoners call their women Doris or 'er indoors. We're a touch more civilised up this neck of the woods......our women have the privilege of lass.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 135
RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/12/2007 1:33:59 PM   
farglebargle


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From: Albany, NY
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quote:



Oh, so you mean people do that just for the comfort of it? Despite the fact that it flies in the face of logic and hard science?


I'm not entirely certain that follows.

There are likely many peer reviewed studies, conducted in accordance with the scientific method which show a positive benefit of acting ... well, like humans....



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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Lorelei115)
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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/12/2007 1:38:40 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorelei115

quote:

Oh. What's the percentage of Athiest Survivors of Athiest Deceacedants who chose to forgo a funeral vs. those who choose to have one?

And thinking of that question, I wonder WHY the concept of funeral rights is necessarily tied to any religious components.

Maybe the point of funeral rights, in general, is that animals leave or consume their dead. WE ARE NOT ANIMALS.

I dunno. All I ask, though, is when I'm gone, raise a glass in my memory sometime, ok?

Animals don't do that either.



Oh, so you mean people do that just for the comfort of it? Despite the fact that it flies in the face of logic and hard science?

Fancy that.
 

Several species of animals mourn or at least show outward signs of mourning (not being able to ask them what's on their minds we can only observe) so mourning appears not an exclusively human trait.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/12/2007 1:39:15 PM >

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/12/2007 4:59:36 PM   
Chaingang


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou
God is more related to government than science. It sets up standards for human interaction and rewards punishments. Where is the real importance in the flood besides the lesson that unruly immoral behaviour is bad (agreed, disagree)?


In turn:

I agree that religion and the idea of God are primarily instruments of control. Believers tend not to agree because they actually believe.

I really couldn't say what the flood myth is supposed to teach. Is there anything more unethical by our thinking than getting drunk and fucking your daughters?

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou
If you agree government or civilization in general is based around unprovable concepts such as right and wrong, which as a society we treat as fact(most do anyway). (agree, disagree)?


I disagree. I think civilization is built up around ethical principles that work. For example: if I agree not to bash you in the face there's a good chance you will let me pass without bashing me in the face also. It isn't actually any more complicated than just that - the ethic of reciprocity. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocity

Right and wrong haven't anything to do with anything. Everyone does what they can get away with - an intricate dance of calculated risks.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou previously has said:
Art is a illogical, irrational waste. (sic)


Yeah, but wars are not fought over Warhol's painted tomato soup cans.

My point is generally that these religious or god ideas are very often not harmless in the same way that other ideas are - for example, ideas in conceptual art.

---

BTW, many people in these threads try to claim that religion or god have no real political importance; I find it interesting that you think such is it's main importance. That I can agree with...


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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/12/2007 5:28:55 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang
Right and wrong haven't anything to do with anything. Everyone does what they can get away with - an intricate dance of calculated risks.

We have a saying here in The Netherlands: The landlord trusts his guests according to his own nature.
 
I have got a definite no for you, Chaingang: some immoral people do what they can get away with, and they may corrupt others, but many people are innately good and righteous.
 
You may be unable to conceive of such good and righteous people, or perhaps you consider them fools, nor may mc ever worship more than the local bar owner, but this merely is proof that in some ways you and he lack abilities that other people do have. In these ways, from this point of view, both of you are severely handicapped.
 
I will also tell you this: to build a successful society requires all kinds of people, in particular a large majority who are not handicapped in these ways as well as a small minority who do are handicapped in this way. Your blind zealousy to destroy what you do not understand and can never understand is lethal to civilization. A civilization such as you desire does not work, but will be a disaster and self-destruct. Stop meddling in areas in which you are not qualified to meddle. Do something useful instead. If religions are a mess, it is because people like you - people who are very intelligent, but who do not have any sense - have been corrupting them for thousands of years.

(in reply to Chaingang)
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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/12/2007 5:31:26 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Most Dutch blokes are straight to the point but I never have the first clue what you're talking about as you're fucking around with this and that. Talk man, for fucks sake.

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I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 140
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