SusanofO
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Joined: 12/19/2005
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Rover and juliet: The two things are certainly not incompatible. And I cannot see how you thought that was cloudboy's entire point. It wasn't. With all due respect, please re-read his introdutory post, if you have jumped to this conclusion. Of course, we all have our own conclusions about what people mean by what they write. I just didn't (at all) think that was the topic, or even a tangential intent to be the entire topic, certainly.
cloudboy: This is one terrific topic. I had a great, lengthy response all typed out for you. I typed so much, in fact, that the PC timed out and my response disappeared (dammit!). I will write more on this later. I agree it is intriguing (not to mention necessary, maybe) to discuss the concepts of the terms "dependence" and "intermittent". What a lot to talk about. What a great topic.
First I guess, I will talk about my past experience with "dependence", just a little anyway. I had what I conisdered a D/s relationship, but for the majority of it, we did not live together, and saw eachother at least once a week (if not 2-3 times). In between, though, we didn't communicate, usually. I am not sure if this qualifies as "part" or "full" time (probably "part"). But anyway - I did still feel submissive, but perhaps not as submissive as I would have felt had we been closer. I am not sure. I am also not sure if "closer" has to mean proximity, necessarily. I doubt it, but that's a hunch.
Anyway, the gist of my response was -
For me there are two types of dependence (and I can see where they would definitely meld if a relationship was very close) but anyway, for now, those two types are :
A) Practical dependence, and -
B) Emotional dependence
As far as "A" goes -
1) I've noticed I appreciate being able to maintain some definite level of independence in my relationships. On the other hand, perhaps I have a tendency, developed of necessity through the years, to not (hardly ever) ask for help in challanging circumstances, or most daily ones - most of theose dealing with "practical" issues: Should I sell my house? When? How do I decide? etc. Do I need to call a repairman when my toilet floods for the umpteenth time-or not? Is it necessary? How do I find one? etc. I sort of "just do it" - but some things and issues are more complex than others, and I am not sure this has always been a great idea.
But I was so used to doing things alone without help, it had become sort of second nature to me. Plus, I've got scads of caring relatives, etc.
I am not sure I might not have benefitted from some good advice in the past about "practical" issues - especially some with longer-term ramifications. I just rarely, if ever, asked anyone to help me. The whole idea was foreign to me. And there have indeed been days when I felt the weight of the world on my back. But - strangely,
If my Dominant asked me how "things" were going as far as managing myriad, complicated paperwork dealing with this or that, for instance, I always just said "fine".
Sometimes he inquired more deeply anyway - and I still said "things are fine". I am not so sure that was always a great thing. I may have felt more relieved if I'd allowed him to help me more. I just wasn't used to it, and he didn't press or insist, really. I am not so sure this was a great thing for me, thinking back. I might have been able to feel more relief getting his advice and actual help about some of that stuff. Or at least his ear, more often. I probably would have felt less frustrated, much of the time. There were times I would just sit down on my bed and cry, I wished so much someone would help me. But I sort of felt ashamed to even ask. Which brings me to -
2) Emotional dependence - Hmmm. I felt definite emotional dependence on my ex-Dominant. I wanted his approval. I didn't want to disappoint. I cared deeply about him and his feelings. Of course I did notice at times this feeling was more pronounced when we were together or in-communication with eachother - but maybe that was only because those times helped fuel my feelings for further interaction.
Was it "enough" for me? That is a very good question, and one I still have not managed to answer for myself. I have to say that for me, as a person, the idea of being micro-managed just sends chills up my spine (even though I realize that is not what we are discussing here. Or at least the one of many roads where this topic could lead).
Maybe getting to the point where I, as a submissive, might even want to feel like I was being more "managed" (or at least helped in sometimes practical ways) would be some kind of milestone (but it's not the same thing, to me as micro-management - because I am normally a pretty independent person. I don't really need somebody telling how to manage my time, etc.). If they want me to do something, I will find a way (usually) to get it done.
Did I feel they (my ex-Dominant) weren't taking enough time to really know what I might need, or what would be "good" for me?(as well as themselves?) In some ways - yes. But, if I wasn't, it's partly because I wasn't "letting them in", so to speak. I know that.
In some ways, though, no. You are, I agree, right in saying it's the Dominant or Domme, simply due to their position, who defines the parameters of the relationship. Whether this ends up actually being "less work" for that Dominant or Domme depends, I think on several factors - some of those being their own personality, thier idea of what an "intimate relationship" in general, entails, their time managment and personal relationship skills, and of course, their preferences.
I've gotten the impression there are Dominants who put lots of thought and time into relationships - for them, a relationship is an investment in the welfare of both parties, not just a way to make their lives "more convenient" (although it might well have that effect on their lives). They walk the talk. They listen, they exchange ideas, they particpate. Sometimes a lot, I think. Of course there are people, I imagine who don't bother with that much, as well.
There are people, I imagine, who are looking for what is one person's idea of "sceneing", on an intemittent basis, with occasional communication, and defining it as an "intimate relationship". And it may well be one - to them. If it's not for the other person who is involved with them as well, then that's when words like "quality Domme/ Dominant", etc. start to crop up.
There are insincere people, and very sincere people, probably too, I think, who are seeking a very "casual" (read somewhat superficial, emotionally anyway, to me) relationship, but don't admit that (or haven't thought about it, I suppose maybe, for whatever reason). I am not saying that's not legitimate. For many it works and works well - it's what they want and what fits into their lives.
But - I think if they think they are in an "intimate realtionship" (emotionally, or on a practical level, say) with someone, and the other person doesn't really think that, then they can't really complain about that when the whole premise of their relationship 'skill-building set' makes it obvious they prefer to not take the time to get to know a partner on a "deeper level" for instance.
Intimacy takes time to develop. Not necessarily proximity (IMO), but definitely time. Some people haven't, apparently, got the time, for whatever reason. Some of those reasons might be legitimate reasons, too (there are only 24 hours in a day). But sometimes they are just "not on the same page", I don't think.
Plus, I think two people need to try to ensure that their "needs" and definitions of phrases like "taking enough time" mesh - or are, at the very least, defined for eachother. That they know what the other person thinks about that kind of thing. If they care, which some don't. That's okay. As long as those two folks are on the "same page". Which they arent' always of course, in some cases. Then, maybe they need to talk about it.
I think it's okay for a submissive to politely ask to broach a topic like this. Submissives have needs, too, of course. At least in an "intimate relationship". I've done that before, and the world didn't stop spinning. Of course some will debate that. But then - that's their relationship, not necessarily anyone else's they are using as a reference point. And I know you know that, too.
More later. I have more to say, but am afraid the PC will time out. Good topic!
Really a lot to talk about, here, cloudboy.
- Susan
< Message edited by SusanofO -- 1/12/2007 11:36:50 AM >
_____________________________
"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson
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