RE: When is it not about communication (Full Version)

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kyraofMists -> RE: When is it not about communication (1/16/2007 3:49:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

I am curious why you think "asking for something"... results in defeating th power structure. 


I think there is a subtle feeling that to state what you want, even in the form of asking, is... aggressive.   This can be counterproductive to some submissives who use that feeling of "smallness" and "passivity" as a tool to maintain mindset.  It isn't that they don't intellectually understand that to ask, there is the possibility of denial and a reinforcement of the control structure, but emotionally, it can be a battle.



I can appreciate this and in the beginning I had a difficult time with asking questions.  Then one day it just clicked for me, if I do not ask him the questions, then I am making the decision and retaining authority.  It may be a decision that I do not get what I want, but I have made it, not him.  The very act of not asking keeps the authority over that want/desire with me and does not give it to him.

It also helps that I have a specific protocol for asking questions that is a consistent reminder that I ask them at his discresion and not at mine.  When we are physically together, I have a hand signal that I am supposed to use to indicate that I wish to ask a question.  Sometimes I am told to wait and I have to stay there and wait quietly for his attention.  Sometimes I am told no and the question goes unasked until a later time of his choosing.  Most times I am given permission and then the answer most often is "We'll see".  It can then be hours, days, weeks or even months later when I find out the answer to the question is yes.

The actual process of asking questions with him, reinforces my submission to him.  It is a win win situation for both of us.  My wants, desires and needs are clearly communicated to him and in a way that reinforces and enhances the authority exchange.

Knight's kyra



catize -> RE: When is it not about communication (1/16/2007 4:05:59 AM)

quote:

And before the doms start moaning about unrealistic expectations, let me state that very often they themselves are the ones who perpetuate this idea.  I cannot tell you the countless times that I've been told by a dom how I will become transparent to him... how he will get into my head and know me better than I know myself.   

<chuckled at this> 
I'm rather solidly opaque; stand me in front of a window and the room goes dark and master sits in the shadow!  The only way my thoughts are brought into the light is if I speak them.  It is up to him to hear, but it's not his job, nor would he claim the ability, to read the tarot cards or gaze into a crystal ball to figure me out. 



CreativeDominant -> RE: When is it not about communication (1/16/2007 7:17:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

...Thing is, you're practically back to the old passive aggressive "you should know what I want" thing that women are famous for - I know what I want, I can really only try to read whether that's working for you or not under these conditions.

Might take a lot of tries. [8D]



~chuckles~...the above is just what the consensus came down to when I was talking to someone about just this thread last night...the vanilla female statement of "you should KNOW what I want"...excuse me, but just how should I?  Even if I am extremely good and I get it right 90% of the time, that would still leave 10% of the time where I get it wrong or have no clue...and WHAT IF that 10% is what you consider to be extremely important?



MaryT -> RE: When is it not about communication (1/16/2007 7:29:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
~chuckles~...the above is just what the consensus came down to when I was talking to someone about just this thread last night...the vanilla female statement of "you should KNOW what I want"...excuse me, but just how should I?  Even if I am extremely good and I get it right 90% of the time, that would still leave 10% of the time where I get it wrong or have no clue...and WHAT IF that 10% is what you consider to be extremely important?


If that's the part you don't get right, of course it would be the most important part! [:D]



toservez -> RE: When is it not about communication (1/16/2007 8:54:02 AM)

To combine what lottreasure and slavemaia wrote because I feel they combined got what I was thinking much better then I communicated it, and to add the cliché I was really hoping to avoid the topping from the bottom one and that was what I was trying to go after.

Being a slave is something I take seriously. I do believe that as a slave my primary function is to serve my Master but I am also experienced enough and know that this and other basic human functions make me have needs both in the service and just life. To serve at a high level takes a certain mindset that is created by both people in the relationship. For me personally it has never been about the toys, pain, kink as things I take pleasure in but my Master doing these things for his pleasure and the physical manifestations of the power exchange as well as mundane orders that affect my behavior. I need those for my mindset not just for pleasure. As slavemania put perfectly in her message to have to communicate things in this realm in a short term basis, basically asking for a discipline situation or totally vanilla things, if I get it immediately, two hours later or the next day feels totally like topping from the bottom and it has at best no effect on my mindset and sometimes a negative effect. It always feels like it is being done because I asked for it which is a giant yuck!

I understand the concept of my Master wants me to communicate this so therefore asking for something is doing what he wants. I wish it was that simple but for me that is not going to do it and is more of an intellectual mind trick then reality.

I have no trouble in communicating, although do not like to, with my Master on general state of the relationship and telling him I could use more discipline or be more managed here or there, but to communicate when I am needing these things at the time and maybe more importantly having to do that too often is to me when problems arise and communication is off in the relationship. That is why my question comes up, I do not think the I am not a mind reader or the slave must communicate any problem are absolutes in a relationship and wonder at some point do dominants take stock in the relationship in recognizing not everything should be verbally communicated by their slave and recognize in some areas depending on their slave that they have to be the one who makes sure the area of something like this is working for both.



Amaros -> RE: When is it not about communication (1/16/2007 9:10:53 AM)

It's been observed that Americans have few formal social sules, but numerous informal ones - the trouble with informal rules is that nobody can articulate them, you only become aware of them whenyou violate them.

I would include feminine notions of romance in this catagory, although the rationale is occasionaly expressed as it is in the OP - i.e., talking about sex somehow diminishes the "mood", or "takes the romance out of it".

Not neccessarily a spurious complaint, although like many other informal rules, it's based on a number of factors including cultural and subcultural assumptions that may vary form time to time, place to place and person to person, although I would argue screaming "what the hell are you doing you pervert!" at the top of ones lungs whilst ones partner is in the middle of employing some more esoteric aspect of lovemaking in an effort to please the object of his affections is not condusive to a romantic mood either.

It's also a factor in the resistence to sex education in my opinion, i.e., birth control STD's, etc., although it isn't usually expressed, and while the principle is worth pondering in some cases, it amounts to possibly dangerous oversensitivity in others.

I think it's a less common complaint than it used to be: although a certain amount of cultural inhibition about women discussing sexual matters in either objective or subjective terms is still discernable, depending on what circles you might find yourself, there has been enough evangalism on the subject, Dr. Ruth, etc., as well as the fact that it's become more difficult to lead a sheltered life - it's far more difficult to avoid at least some exposure to pornography, however peripheral, than it was back in the "plain brown wrapper" days before the internet, which has some amount of healthy desenitization effect.

"I don't do anal", expressed before the proceedings have commenced for example alludes to the fact that while it is no longer considered a horrendous breach of ancient civilized values, you don't happen to enjoy it - expressed during the attempt, it becomes soemthing of an akward sexual non-sequiter.

Which leads me to want to ask toservez, whether her reticence extends to answering queries about her needs, i.e., if I demand an answer from you, does that interfere with the aesthetics of the moment for you? How about timing?

I tend to try and sort these things out beforehand: I'm not against talking during sex, depending on the person, and I like dirty talk, which is a good way to communicate during without breaking the mood - (I've recently been pondering the idea that men like to talk during sex, while women like to talk afterwords, when you can't hold your eyes open or focus a coherent thought, all the blood having exited one head for the other - another traditional speed bump on the road to sexual harmony between the sexes) - but it can also be useful during the aquaintence/seduction phase of the relationship - what are your thoughts on this, toservez or anyone?





mstrjx -> RE: When is it not about communication (1/16/2007 9:12:08 AM)

Somehow I guess I disagree with the general way this is going.

No, I'm not 'exactly' a mind reader, but it seems that any dominant/Master/Mistress worth their salt should know the person who they are with pretty intimately.  Enough to know when things are going well, and enough to know when a tension has come about.  You might not exactly know the root cause (although I suspect I could FAR more often than not), but you (as the dominant) know if something needs to be addressed.

Paying attention, being proactive, ensures to a degree that the 'pulse' doesn't have to be taken too regularly.  If you have to ask too often 'is everything all right' when you don't really have a clue but think it's better to be safe than sorry only means you're not really in touch of your partner.

I would go back to what I said in my first post.  Is it selfishness?  Do dominants think that the world revolves around them so much that they don't have to pay attention?  The last time I saw the phrase D/s or M/s relationship, 'relationship' was still one of the words.  We can debate the folly of what I'm saying until we're blue, but we are talking about two (or more) people who have to keep the motivation to keep the dynamic alive.

Jeff



Amaros -> RE: When is it not about communication (1/16/2007 9:25:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez

To combine what lottreasure and slavemaia wrote because I feel they combined got what I was thinking much better then I communicated it, and to add the cliché I was really hoping to avoid the topping from the bottom one and that was what I was trying to go after.

Being a slave is something I take seriously. I do believe that as a slave my primary function is to serve my Master but I am also experienced enough and know that this and other basic human functions make me have needs both in the service and just life. To serve at a high level takes a certain mindset that is created by both people in the relationship. For me personally it has never been about the toys, pain, kink as things I take pleasure in but my Master doing these things for his pleasure and the physical manifestations of the power exchange as well as mundane orders that affect my behavior. I need those for my mindset not just for pleasure. As slavemania put perfectly in her message to have to communicate things in this realm in a short term basis, basically asking for a discipline situation or totally vanilla things, if I get it immediately, two hours later or the next day feels totally like topping from the bottom and it has at best no effect on my mindset and sometimes a negative effect. It always feels like it is being done because I asked for it which is a giant yuck!

I understand the concept of my Master wants me to communicate this so therefore asking for something is doing what he wants. I wish it was that simple but for me that is not going to do it and is more of an intellectual mind trick then reality.

I have no trouble in communicating, although do not like to, with my Master on general state of the relationship and telling him I could use more discipline or be more managed here or there, but to communicate when I am needing these things at the time and maybe more importantly having to do that too often is to me when problems arise and communication is off in the relationship. That is why my question comes up, I do not think the I am not a mind reader or the slave must communicate any problem are absolutes in a relationship and wonder at some point do dominants take stock in the relationship in recognizing not everything should be verbally communicated by their slave and recognize in some areas depending on their slave that they have to be the one who makes sure the area of something like this is working for both.


Like it or not some men take pleasure in giving pleasure - at one time we were raised to ignore and remain emotionally detached from the sexual needs of women, but this is no longer the case, though it may well still pertain in the culture in which you were raised, and helped shape your expectations.

So, however many times you express your need to be used without constraint or consideration, for a lot of guys, the cultural demand for more empathetic approaches to sex they've been exposed to are going to creep back in.

Again, a huge amount of communication is non-verbal, and rather than asking for it, you might try "asking for it", i.e., rebelling in some way - if this is also difficult or not working for you, you can use the pleasure principle to reinforce your needs and expectations by expressing satisfaction when he does happen to make the right moves.

In short, you're going to have to communicate, in some fashion, if it seems that what to me seems like a pretty straightforeward script, doesn't seem to be getting across. You may just have to rethink your modes of communication.



toservez -> RE: When is it not about communication (1/16/2007 9:53:21 AM)

I do not want to infer that dominants take no responsibility in the relationship because that is stupid, but in my life on this message board or in real life interactions it does seem like a dominant catch all when problems arise that it is always on the submissive to do the communication and my point is that fair or not, some things just have to fall on the dominant like it or not and sometimes these things need to be proactive and not reactive.

Amaros, I cannot speak for all women and not even all slaves but I cannot tell you how huge of a difference it is for my Master to do something that is a pleasure to me because he wants to then my Master doing something that is a pleasure because he thinks I want it from him. One is divine the other is Yuck!



Amaros -> RE: When is it not about communication (1/16/2007 10:33:38 AM)

I can dig.



slavemaia -> RE: When is it not about communication (1/16/2007 11:37:54 AM)

This is an extremely interesting topic to me. i tend to experience it as not necessarily so much the difference between a Dominant and submissive, but perhaps a male/female thing. During discussion with Master concerning "desires", i've compared men to gas stoves - turn the knob and they're ready to go. Whereas women are more like electric stoves and need some time to "heat up". i'm sure there are always exceptions to this, but have found this to be generally true. i also tend to think that on average women are more psychological and emotional about their sexual fulfillment. It's not so much a feeling of "insert here" and have a blast. lol
 
When i need/want something from Master, i have to remember something that is easy for me to forget - He's a man. And that means He and i are quite different. i've known Femdommes who really get the psychological/emotional aspects of control and that is a turn on for me. Unfortunately i don't dig women sexually so can't go that route. As in anything in life one never truly understands anything one hasn't experienced first hand. i've never been a man and so don't truly know what the male psyche and body feel like and how they function. At best i can imagine. And, Master can only do the same for me. So, as much as i too dislike having to communicate as much as i do, and feeling like it dilutes the energy to some degree, i'm learning to accept that there's really no way around it. Chairman has made it very clear to me that learning me is just as important to Him as learning Him is to me. In this i feel very blessed.
 
i read once that a slave's job is to make her/his self transparent to their Master/Mistress -. First step - choose a Master/Mistress who wants to pay attention and is actively involved in the interchange. Next step - accept that men and women are not alike and no 2 people are alike, third step - make how i feel, what i think, want, need, thrive on, known to my Master in various forms of communication - sometimes through words, othertimes through actions. i too am a believer that a worthwhile Dominant is one who cares deeply about His/Her property's well-being and fulfillment.



Sirandlittle1 -> RE: When is it not about communication (1/16/2007 1:29:24 PM)

I remember in our early days, thinking, if i am the one asking, it detracted from him dominating and leading the show. But, as that was what was demanded at the time, i did.

Now years later, and much communication later, we have learnt each others ways, so that asking, is not always necessary, he can anticipate my needs, just as i can his. But you have to start somewhere.

Also, when i did ask for something, like say, a spanking. Id get the spanking, but in a way that he chose to deliver it, so that his needs were met simultaneously. A win win situation. He still held the control, and would often demo this, by giving me what i requested, but to a limit or direction i never thought id go for instance.

Had we not moved forward from me having to verbally communicate my needs, then obviously, our relationship would of failed. But it is where we started, and i have a responsibility to him, and us, to ensure that our needs are met. As does he.

little1



Noah -> RE: When is it not about communication (1/16/2007 4:34:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slavemaia

... Whereas women are more like electric stoves and need some time to "heat up". i'm sure there are always exceptions to this, but have found this to be generally true. 


Put my saddle on the stove, boys. I'm ridin' the range tonight.


quote:

i also tend to think that on average women are more psychological and emotional about their sexual fulfillment. It's not so much a feeling of "insert here" and have a blast. lol


But of course we are individuals, not insurance companies. Which is okay for me cause I'm not into average women anyway. Even if they are a minority, there are plenty of women who stand at the other end of that continuum you describe. I wouldn't be surprised if they were slightly over-represented in the kink community, having arrived here after fairly despairing of getting their kind of psychological and emotional fulfillment from deferential vanillas "pleasers"

The deep, rich psychological and emotional fulfillment that comes to some women from being used in an "insert here and have a blast" manner, is the kind I'm talking about.

So let's cultivate enough space to let all the flowers bloom (and then of course be crushed for their essential oils.)


quote:

When i need/want something from Master, i have to remember something that is easy for me to forget - He's a man. And that means He and i are quite different. i've known Femdommes who really get the psychological/emotional aspects of control and that is a turn on for me. Unfortunately i don't dig women sexually so can't go that route. As in anything in life one never truly understands anything one hasn't experienced first hand. i've never been a man and so don't truly know what the male psyche and body feel like and how they function. At best i can imagine. And, Master can only do the same for me. So, as much as i too dislike having to communicate as much as i do, and feeling like it dilutes the energy to some degree, i'm learning to accept that there's really no way around it. Chairman has made it very clear to me that learning me is just as important to Him as learning Him is to me. In this i feel very blessed.
 
i read once that a slave's job is to make her/his self transparent to their Master/Mistress -. First step - choose a Master/Mistress who wants to pay attention and is actively involved in the interchange. Next step - accept that men and women are not alike and no 2 people are alike, third step - make how i feel, what i think, want, need, thrive on, known to my Master in various forms of communication - sometimes through words, othertimes through actions. i too am a believer that a worthwhile Dominant is one who cares deeply about His/Her property's well-being and fulfillment.


Thanks for a nice post

The OP's underlying question seems to be: "Don't any doms get it?"

Let's stipulate that your it will be both similar to and different from ever other woman's it. I'm willing to stipulate that you aren't some anomalous sport-of-nature dangling at the edge of the great bell curve of kink. I expect that other women have sought very much what you are seeking.

All that said, I encourage you to look at the large number of submissives who report that they are in richly fulfilling relationships. Somebody must be doing something pretty effectively, huh? I mean there are a lot of amazing, formidable women around here. I don't think that all the ones who have hooked up have "settled".

So take heart. Have faith now, when it is hard. Faith in him if you want; in yourself, surely--and in Providence if that has a place in your world view. The practice you get now in submitting graciously to your plight as you see it ... this is practice in submitting deeply and thoroughly in the face of challenge and doubt and difficulty. You can choose to try to process this existential pain masochistically. You can chose to try to dedicate your present subjugation to fate as well as your longing, all to the person you may eventually serve.

Something tells me, servez, that a guy with a refined appreciation for that kind of submission might be the kind of guy you're hoping to attract.

And really, I read your posts. It seems to me that--notwithstanding in the least your desire to have this conversation--you are doing a pretty good job of it all already.



CreativeDominant -> RE: When is it not about communication (1/16/2007 5:33:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaryT

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
~chuckles~...the above is just what the consensus came down to when I was talking to someone about just this thread last night...the vanilla female statement of "you should KNOW what I want"...excuse me, but just how should I?  Even if I am extremely good and I get it right 90% of the time, that would still leave 10% of the time where I get it wrong or have no clue...and WHAT IF that 10% is what you consider to be extremely important?


If that's the part you don't get right, of course it would be the most important part! [:D]



~just groans and slaps forehead while muttering~  and they wonder why my hairline keeps ever-retreating.



bipolarber -> RE: When is it not about communication (1/20/2007 2:11:54 PM)

When is communication not important? Um... when one of you is dead. (Providing seances don't actually work...)



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