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Active Duty Military Speak Out Against the War in Iraq - 1/16/2007 3:33:46 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

Seems that a group of 50 Active Duty servicefolks, took a petition for redress signed by over 1000 Active Duty Servicefolks directly to Congress today, asking them to shut of funding for Bush's Occupation of Iraq.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

Post #: 1

RE: Active Duty Military Speak Out Against the War in Iraq - 1/16/2007 3:42:32 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Seems that a group of 50 Active Duty servicefolks, took a petition for redress signed by over 1000 Active Duty Servicefolks directly to Congress today, asking them to shut of funding for Bush's Occupation of Iraq.

Brave people.

They can get court martialled for that.

I imagine they are not too worried because they would be brought home from Iraq for their court martial.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 2

RE: Active Duty Military Speak Out Against the War in Iraq - 1/16/2007 3:51:34 PM

WyrdRich

Posts: 1733
Joined: 1/3/2005
Status: offline

Unfortunately, the right to do things like that is surrendered when you take the oath.

Hope none of them were counting on that college money...

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 3

RE: Active Duty Military Speak Out Against the War in Iraq - 1/16/2007 3:56:14 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

Strangely enough, no.

They're not marching in protests, so It seems that Article 3.5.7 DoD Directive 1325.6 is in play, which provides the right of service members to complain and request redress of grievances against actions of their commanders.

So going to your congressman with a demand for redress is actually a protected act. And so it should be.

It's sort of nice to see America *WORKING RIGHT* for a change.

Freedom, Liberty and all that...

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to WyrdRich)

Post #: 4

RE: Active Duty Military Speak Out Against the War in Iraq - 1/16/2007 3:58:44 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Strangely enough, no.

They're not marching in protests, so It seems that Article 3.5.7 DoD Directive 1325.6 is in play, which provides the right of service members to complain and request redress of grievances against actions of their commanders.

So going to your congressman with a demand for redress is actually a protected act. And so it should be.

It's sort of nice to see America *WORKING RIGHT* for a change.

Freedom, Liberty and all that...

Sweet!

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 5

RE: Active Duty Military Speak Out Against the War in Iraq - 1/16/2007 4:01:17 PM

Thadius

Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline

Evening fargle,

It's been awhile, hope things are going well. I haven't seen the actual petition that was signed or the wording involved, but they would be treading on some very thin ice. Just using the numbers you presented though of 1000 on the petition that compared to the 120k that are still in Iraq means that less then one percent signed this petition. I have seen reports in the past stating that 40-50% of the enlisted personnel in country wanted to come home, the problem with the report was the way it was worded. I can speak from personal experience in that if I am away from home for more than 6 months I would like to return as well, whether I enjoyed what I was doing or not. It would be akin to asking the younglings in their own homes if they would want to go to Disney world, then reporting the results as x number of younglings wish to leave home.

I wish you well,
Thadius

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 6

RE: Active Duty Military Speak Out Against the War in Iraq - 1/16/2007 4:05:37 PM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Strangely enough, no.

They're not marching in protests, so It seems that Article 3.5.7 DoD Directive 1325.6 is in play, which provides the right of service members to complain and request redress of grievances against actions of their commanders.

So going to your congressman with a demand for redress is actually a protected act. And so it should be.

It's sort of nice to see America *WORKING RIGHT* for a change.

Freedom, Liberty and all that...

Sweet!

Sinergy

Regardless, their ass is grass in the military, they got no shot at advancement.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 7

RE: Active Duty Military Speak Out Against the War in Iraq - 1/16/2007 4:10:11 PM

starshineowned

Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline

Even beyond the military ass grass..if they live in a military town or any God&Country setting..they will probably need to pack up and move on down the road.

Well Wishes
starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

_____________________________

"And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." --Abraham Lincoln

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 8

RE: Active Duty Military Speak Out Against the War in Iraq - 1/16/2007 4:34:46 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: starshineowned

Even beyond the military ass grass..if they live in a military town or any God&Country setting..they will probably need to pack up and move on down the road.

Well Wishes
starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

Of course, they have spent how many years in Iraq now? I imagine they would not want to live in a place where people thought invading Iraq was a good idea.

And on the topic of no advancement in the military. I suspect the ones who signed the petition were reservists and rue the day they signed the contract.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to starshineowned)

Post #: 9

RE: Active Duty Military Speak Out Against the War in Iraq - 1/16/2007 4:43:56 PM

cyberdude611

Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Seems that a group of 50 Active Duty servicefolks, took a petition for redress signed by over 1000 Active Duty Servicefolks directly to Congress today, asking them to shut of funding for Bush's Occupation of Iraq.

Only 1,000?? That's only 0.007% of the troops over there.

This petitiion will be laughed at. It's not even making mainstream news.

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 10

RE: Active Duty Military Speak Out Against the War in Iraq - 1/16/2007 4:54:20 PM

Thadius

Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline

Ah let me try my hand at this one, and I will do my best to stay away from the political aspects of it.

The legality of the war or the illegality of it do not fall within this administrations term, believe it or not. The US declared war on Iraq prior to Desert Storm, legally declared and acted upon by congress and the president at the time. The US and Iraq entered into a cease fire agreement shortly after it became obvious to Iraq that it could not win. In the cease fire agreement Iraq agreed to certain conditions, including but not limited to the release of all Kuwati prisoners (political and war), the payment of reperations, a no fly zone, the ceasing of hostilities to the Northern Kurds (spelling) and a few others... The ones I have listed here were NOT performed, which is part and parcel why President Clinton also performed raids and sortees on Iraq. As to the question of whether or not Iraq had WMDs, the simple answer is yes, we know this because we sold and gave them to them (during the Iraq-Iran war). What was done with those weapons, still remains a mystery, save the instances we know they were used. So legality is a non issue.

I hate seeing young men and women dying on foriegn ground, or here at home. Sometimes the price seems far to expensive to pay. As a veteran of the Gulf War, I say a prayer every night for all of our military personnel, but I also look at history and know that the price we have paid so far would be all for naught if we pull out now. Look at what happened to Afghanistan after the Soviets pulled out. Look what happened to Iraq when we left the job undone the first time. It took the US over a decade to ratify a constitution after the declaration of independance... It took 15 years of guerilla warfare for the peace to become stable after the Civil War ended. It seems like there is a quagmire over there, but I challenge you to go and look at the reports that aren't on your daily news channels. See what progress is being made.

I wish you well,
Thadius

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 11

RE: Active Duty Military Speak Out Against the War in Iraq - 1/16/2007 5:28:23 PM

cyberdude611

Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline

If we go by the definition that a war is only legal when attacked, then isn't the war also illegal as well since a nation is aggressively attacking another? You see, it all has to do with point of view and which side you want to be on.

So I think we are clear on the issue of legal and illegal. There is no set definition other than one person's point of view. I mean to some people attacking Iraq was legal because we were overthrowing a tyrant. Isn't that what we declared to do on July 4th, 1776? I mean Britain wasn't slaughtering us. They were not threatning us with nuclear weapons. They were not putting people in human shredders. We revolted because of taxes. MONEY! We thought it was unfair that the British government tax us for their wars without us being fully represented in the parliament. So we threw their tea into the Boston harbor. And declared revolution.

Now rises the issue of justification. But again, we have another problem. What makes a war "justified." To many people, the fact that Saddam was an oppressive dictator makes the war justified. Make no mistake, he was a very evil man. However there are others that believe the war was not justified since Saddam was not a threat to the United States.
But has that ever stopped us before from going to war? Look at Korea, Panama, Somalia, Grenada, Haiti, Kosovo, or Vietnam. We were never under direct threat from any of those countries. In fact did you know that Saddam killed more people than Milosevic? Yet the Kosovo war was "justified?" Did Milosevic ever threaten the United States of America? Nope. He did not. Yet we joined forces with muslims in Kosovo that had links to Osama Bin Ladin in order to bomb the hell out of the Serbs...the same people that rescued many of our pilots shot down by the Nazis in the second world war.

All war is hell. And in the end, it doesn't matter if it is justified or unjustified...legal or illegal. The fact remains that is a reality of our civilization. Maybe one of these days far off into the future, we can live in a world of peace. But right now, world peace is not possible. There are too many crazies out there. Not just terrorists crazy enough to strap a bomb to their chests, but dictators as well. These people would love nothing more than to take all your liberties and freedoms away.

As George Orwell stated....pacifism is pro-fascist. Because like it or not, if you don't fight fascism and oppression, you are supporting it.

(in reply to Thadius)

Post #: 12

RE: Active Duty Military Speak Out Against the War in Iraq - 1/16/2007 5:28:55 PM

MzMia

Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Seems that a group of 50 Active Duty servicefolks, took a petition for redress signed by over 1000 Active Duty Servicefolks directly to Congress today, asking them to shut of funding for Bush's Occupation of Iraq.

Great post fargle, they are indeed brave to do this.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 1/16/2007 5:30:19 PM >

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain

What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 13

RE: Active Duty Military Speak Out Against the War in Iraq - 1/16/2007 5:51:31 PM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

Vietnam Veterans against the War was not a massive beast when they began, but irregardless of the press right now, no fuckwad in congress is going to take that paper from them and then tell them boys to scurry there weak asses home.....

It is BIG!!!!!

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 14

RE: Active Duty Military Speak Out Against the War in Iraq - 1/16/2007 6:03:30 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Seems that a group of 50 Active Duty servicefolks, took a petition for redress signed by over 1000 Active Duty Servicefolks directly to Congress today, asking them to shut of funding for Bush's Occupation of Iraq.

Only 1,000?? That's only 0.007% of the troops over there.

This petitiion will be laughed at. It's not even making mainstream news.

I caught it from the A.P. on Yahoo! That's not mainstream?

And hey, if people WANT this to drag on, let them petition their congressmen for redress, by all means.

I'd LOVE to see the list of people who WANT more dead American Soldiers and Iraqi Civilians.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to cyberdude611)

Post #: 15

RE: Active Duty Military Speak Out Against the War in Iraq - 1/16/2007 6:05:07 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

What makes a war "justified."

A declaration of War by Congress, as is their Constitutionally mandated Duty?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to cyberdude611)

Post #: 16

RE: Active Duty Military Speak Out Against the War in Iraq - 1/16/2007 6:20:05 PM

Thadius

Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline

I am not sure if you were arguing it with me or agreeing with what I said, so I will clarify a few of my personal positions.

1. I believe that we need to keep troops on the ground until the Iraquis can handle it themselves.

2. If congress attempts to withhold money from the military in an attempt to change policy or strategy, I think there will be a nasty fight about seperation of powers.

3. If we learned anything from Viet Nam, allowing public opinion to sway military strategy is a bad thing, and normally costs more lives of our young soldiers.

4. We still have troops sitting along the DMZ in Korea, these many years after the combat has ended, and they do provide a deterent to hostilities. (pointing this out because we may need to keep troops on the ground in a peaceful presence after hostilities end).

5. Whether you agree or disagree with why we are there, the fact is we are. If we tuck tail and run now, the lives that have been lost will have been in vein.

6. If you are anti-war (although I don't know anybody that is actually 'pro' war) there was a chance to change policy 2 years ago in the elections, and aparantly it was not enough to get out the vote to do so.

I respect everybody's right to express their opinions and to debate those that they disagree with, if I didn't feel that way there is no way I would have enlisted shortly after my 17th birthday. I took that oath to defend the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic, very seriously. The debates and public discourse are signs of our Republic in action, and part of what I truly love about this country.

I wish you well,
Thadius

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to cyberdude611)

Post #: 17

RE: Active Duty Military Speak Out Against the War in Iraq - 1/16/2007 6:28:50 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Strangely enough, no.

They're not marching in protests, so It seems that Article 3.5.7 DoD Directive 1325.6 is in play, which provides the right of service members to complain and request redress of grievances against actions of their commanders.

So going to your congressman with a demand for redress is actually a protected act. And so it should be.

It's sort of nice to see America *WORKING RIGHT* for a change.

Freedom, Liberty and all that...

yep as long as they do not disobey orders and continue they have the right to petition the government, ie the chain of command

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 18

RE: Active Duty Military Speak Out Against the War in Iraq - 1/16/2007 6:31:36 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Regardless, their ass is grass in the military, they got no shot at advancement.

Ron

that depends on which branch, army its that way anyway

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 19

RE: Active Duty Military Speak Out Against the War in Iraq - 1/16/2007 6:38:56 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

All war is hell. And in the end, it doesn't matter if it is justified or unjustified...legal or illegal. The fact remains that is a reality of our civilization. Maybe one of these days far off into the future, we can live in a world of peace. But right now, world peace is not possible. There are too many crazies out there. Not just terrorists crazy enough to strap a bomb to their chests, but dictators as well. These people would love nothing more than to take all your liberties and freedoms away.

As George Orwell stated....pacifism is pro-fascist. Because like it or not, if you don't fight fascism and oppression, you are supporting it.

if you can figure out a way to destroy the world banking system then we will have a good shot at peace

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

I am not sure if you were arguing it with me or agreeing with what I said, so I will clarify a few of my personal positions.

1. I believe that we need to keep troops on the ground until the Iraquis can handle it themselves.

2. If congress attempts to withhold money from the military in an attempt to change policy or strategy, I think there will be a nasty fight about seperation of powers.

3. If we learned anything from Viet Nam, allowing public opinion to sway military strategy is a bad thing, and normally costs more lives of our young soldiers.

4. We still have troops sitting along the DMZ in Korea, these many years after the combat has ended, and they do provide a deterent to hostilities. (pointing this out because we may need to keep troops on the ground in a peaceful presence after hostilities end).

5. Whether you agree or disagree with why we are there, the fact is we are. If we tuck tail and run now, the lives that have been lost will have been in vein.

6. If you are anti-war (although I don't know anybody that is actually 'pro' war) there was a chance to change policy 2 years ago in the elections, and aparantly it was not enough to get out the vote to do so.

I respect everybody's right to express their opinions and to debate those that they disagree with, if I didn't feel that way there is no way I would have enlisted shortly after my 17th birthday. I took that oath to defend the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic, very seriously. The debates and public discourse are signs of our Republic in action, and part of what I truly love about this country.

I wish you well,
Thadius

There have been countless lives that have been lost in vain!
58000 in nam!

7000 so far for oil, by both homeland terrorists and the terrorism of us imperialism.

There is HUGE money to be made in waar by a very few and that is why we are dying over there. If thats not dying in vain what is?

We are the good guys and we will kill the tyrant hussien who gased his own people of all things!

How about a dose of homeland terror
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5369116450757675658&q=waco
we just burn em alive!
sorry

Who is gonna save us?

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 1/16/2007 6:58:52 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to cyberdude611)

Post #: 20

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