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RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/17/2007 8:18:02 AM   
adaddysgirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Masternslave07

There is a big difference between private apartment owners (for example) deciding to rent to only non smokers ( It's a free country for now), and the government passing those same laws. It amazes me how so many don't see the difference. Or don't care.
I guess an apartment owner who decides to rent to only non smokers has that right, but if they decide to rent to only smokers, they wouldn't have that right? Only in America.


This was a point i made on a past thread.  i said the owners of a business should have the right to determine if their bar or restaurant remained smoke free or not.  Well that still wasn't good enough for the non-smokers since they called it a public place.  So i suggested if the gov was going to ban smoking in bars/restaurants, at least leave a certain percentage (even like 25%) of them open for smokers.  Then both will still have a place to go.  That still didn't seem acceptable....and i'm not sure why.  That option at least allows for both parties to do their thing...and both parties to decide where they want to frequent. 
 
i see the same with privately owned apartment buildings.  If the owner wants to allow smoking there, why shouldn't he be able to?  It's his property!  If non-smokers don't want to live there, then go find the other zillion places available.  You buy a house and you expect to live in there the way you want.  Seems that won't be an option if things keep up the way they are going.
 
DG

(in reply to Masternslave07)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/17/2007 8:27:40 AM   
Aubre


Posts: 478
Joined: 12/9/2004
Status: offline 		Some funny quotes from the debate:

"If we see you smoking we will assume you are on fire and will treat you accordingly."
"Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like having a peeing section in a swimming pool."

If you want to see something that will gross you out, open the computer a smoker has been using for a few years. Ew ew ew.

(in reply to adaddysgirl)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/17/2007 10:46:30 AM   
Lorelei115


Posts: 1933
Joined: 8/16/2006
From: Sin City
Status: offline 		The point I think meatcleaver is trying to make with the air pollution (forgive me if I'm wrong here) is that if you are going to ban something because it is harmful to other people, you have to ban EVERYTHING that might be harmful to other people. But because smokers are a smaller group of people than those who drive cars, they are easier to target.

I mean, I guess I could write a letter to my senator requesting a new law be put into place that prohibits grills and open flame cooking in restaurants. After all, the smoke that comes out of those is loaded with carcinogens, just like cigarette smoke. Hell, we'd have to shut the whole state of Louisiana down due to their whole thing with "blackening" food. And further down the road, I could prevent people from barbequeing in their own homes, because the smoke drifts over to my property and I don't want MY family exposed to that sort of thing.

I will also reiterate what I said in an earlier thread. If you don't like the smoke, leave. Its that simple. Business owners aren't as stupid as some people seem to think. If they are losing too much clientele because of cigarette smoke, they will change over to a non smoking environment.

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/17/2007 11:00:46 AM   
Masternslave07


Posts: 203
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quote:

ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Masternslave07

There is a big difference between private apartment owners (for example) deciding to rent to only non smokers ( It's a free country for now), and the government passing those same laws. It amazes me how so many don't see the difference. Or don't care.
I guess an apartment owner who decides to rent to only non smokers has that right, but if they decide to rent to only smokers, they wouldn't have that right? Only in America.


This was a point i made on a past thread.  i said the owners of a business should have the right to determine if their bar or restaurant remained smoke free or not.  Well that still wasn't good enough for the non-smokers since they called it a public place.  So i suggested if the gov was going to ban smoking in bars/restaurants, at least leave a certain percentage (even like 25%) of them open for smokers.  Then both will still have a place to go.  That still didn't seem acceptable....and i'm not sure why.  That option at least allows for both parties to do their thing...and both parties to decide where they want to frequent. 
 
i see the same with privately owned apartment buildings.  If the owner wants to allow smoking there, why shouldn't he be able to?  It's his property!  If non-smokers don't want to live there, then go find the other zillion places available.  You buy a house and you expect to live in there the way you want.  Seems that won't be an option if things keep up the way they are going.
 
DG


Quite a bit of common sense in your post. But when people have an agenda, silly things like common sense and freedom go out the door quite easily. Amazing isn't it?

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RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/17/2007 11:47:12 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

you compared smoking with car fumes. I don't see why the two have to be discussed together.


NG,
And you compare smokers to serial killers and thieves:
quote:

NG: I doubt anyone believes an individual such as a serial killer should be allowed to do whatever he wants and kill a few people. I doubt anyone believes an individual should be allowed to break into your home and steal your possessions.
Is your comparison any more relevant?



Yes, because:

1) I am stating the obvious (i.e. no one supports the rights of killers and thieves to do as they please) in order to make the point that freedom of action has limits in any society. The next discussion to my point is: should freedom of action apply to smokers?

2) MC is using transport-induced pollution to make a case for smokers' freedom of action.

In terms of putting a case forward, you'll see that relativism is nothing to do 1 i.e. my comparison sets the scene for the discussion. You'll also see that relativism has everything to do with 2 i.e. this is MC's primary offering in the discussion.
 
Chalk and cheese.

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/17/2007 11:54:58 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Ja Meine Fuhrer. To be honest it doesn't really bother me because I still maintain people like to ban things because they can, not because they need to which is why people want to ban smoking in places they don't even frequent.



Great. 

I couldn't give a flying one if you or anyone else wants to smoke - your call. Just don't do it in my face.

When two people have a chat, one person doesn't get right up in the other person's face. What would you do if they did? I mean, brow on brow, right up close? You'd say fuck off out of it. Why? Because that's your space - it's an unwritten and generally respected rule that each person has his/her immediate sphere of personal space that isn't invaded by someone else. Similarly, why should the smoke from your ciggies intrude my space - the belongings of no other person belongs in that space unless invited (including face, hands, breath, smoke - you name it).

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/17/2007 12:00:05 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

you compared smoking with car fumes. I don't see why the two have to be discussed together.


NG,
And you compare smokers to serial killers and thieves:
quote:

NG: I doubt anyone believes an individual such as a serial killer should be allowed to do whatever he wants and kill a few people. I doubt anyone believes an individual should be allowed to break into your home and steal your possessions.
Is your comparison any more relevant?



Yes, because:

2) MC is using transport-induced pollution to make a case for smokers' freedom of action.

In terms of putting a case forward, you'll see that relativism is nothing to do 1 i.e. my comparison sets the scene for the discussion. You'll also see that relativism has everything to do with 2 i.e. this is MC's primary offering in the discussion.
 


Until smoking in a bar harms unwilling people (who are not forced to frequent an establishment clearly sign posted a smoking establishment) I object to social fascists interfering in my freedom to smoke. It has nothing to do with relativism, it is to do with wanting puritanical fascists to fuck off out of my life. Don't those puritans learn from their stupid idiotic war on drugs and prohibition in the pre-war America that their policies are totally fucked up?

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RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/17/2007 12:02:31 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Yes, because:

1) I am stating the obvious (i.e. no one supports the rights of killers and thieves to do as they please) in order to make the point that freedom of action has limits in any society. The next discussion to my point is: should freedom of action apply to smokers?

2) MC is using transport-induced pollution to make a case for smokers' freedom of action.

In terms of putting a case forward, you'll see that relativism is nothing to do 1 i.e. my comparison sets the scene for the discussion. You'll also see that relativism has everything to do with 2 i.e. this is MC's primary offering in the discussion.


Wouldn't it have been easier to say that your reference is relevant because it is yours and his is not because it is his? No one supports thieves? What about the illegal immigrant supporters who don't have a problem with them using US tax payer funds allocated for US citizen social programs? Killers are "supported" all the time. Call them soldiers or terrorists, the distinction being the side you back and both sides in Iraq have "supporters".

Next time there is a discussion regarding convoluted logic and rationalization I'm going to use this as my reference.

We'll never agree on where personal freedom begins or ends in consideration of another person. However the biggest difference in us is that I don't believe any rationalized "good intention" shifts the power of authority from an individual to a government.

Excuse my ignorance to "chalk & cheese"?  Is it an English delicacy that I've missed on my travels there?

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/17/2007 12:08:24 PM   
mugwump


Posts: 119
Joined: 9/26/2005
From: uk
Status: offline 		"if you are going to ban something because it is harmful to other people, you have to ban EVERYTHING that might be harmful to other people"  (haven't figured the quote thing out - forgive my idiocy!)

i'm notoriously anti-smoking but my reaction here isn't to the should they/shouldn't they thing - but to the attitude that if you can't be perfect you might as well do nothing. It's the ultimate get out clause - 'well, officer i was speeding, but that guy there is doing 5mph more than i was', 'mom, i did pinch £50 out of your holiday jar, but dad pinched £70 from the xmas money'. It's all just fudging really.

1 person smoking in public for a lifetime is a minor glitch compared to Pohl Pot's life choices but of global significance compared to whether i wear a t-shirt or a long-sleeved top. You can pick comparables to deflect but they won't detract.

jmo

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RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/17/2007 12:14:54 PM   
swtnsparkling


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quote:

NorthernGent
The thread is about smoking,

Yes the original Post was about smoking in ones own/ owned home. Who gives anyone a right to say people cannot smoke in their homes for christs sake all the while all the traffic fumes etc is polluting the air.

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/17/2007 12:23:22 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Yes, because:

1) I am stating the obvious (i.e. no one supports the rights of killers and thieves to do as they please) in order to make the point that freedom of action has limits in any society. The next discussion to my point is: should freedom of action apply to smokers?

2) MC is using transport-induced pollution to make a case for smokers' freedom of action.

In terms of putting a case forward, you'll see that relativism is nothing to do 1 i.e. my comparison sets the scene for the discussion. You'll also see that relativism has everything to do with 2 i.e. this is MC's primary offering in the discussion.


Wouldn't it have been easier to say that your reference is relevant because it is yours and his is not because it is his?
 
Do we have to go through the childish?

No one supports thieves? What about the illegal immigrant supporters who don't have a problem with them using US tax payer funds allocated for US citizen social programs?

My original comment actually stated a thief stealing from a house.
 
Killers are "supported" all the time. Call them soldiers or terrorists, the distinction being the side you back and both sides in Iraq have "supporters".

It should also have been obvious to you that my original comment on killing related to the the definition of murder that is widely accepted in society e.g. strangling someone to death.

Next time there is a discussion regarding convoluted logic and rationalization I'm going to use this as my reference.

You're twisting my words and misrepresenting what I'm saying.

Excuse my ignorance to "chalk & cheese"? Is it an English delicacy that I've missed on my travels there?

If you're genuniely interested, google it.
 


_____________________________

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/17/2007 12:26:53 PM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: swtnsparkling

quote:

NorthernGent
The thread is about smoking,

Yes the original Post was about smoking in ones own/ owned home. Who gives anyone a right to say people cannot smoke in their homes for christs sake all the while all the traffic fumes etc is polluting the air.


I don't care what people do in their own home. It should be obvious from what I've posted. 

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to swtnsparkling)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/17/2007 12:30:42 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline 		I'm a non smoker, except for the occasional cigarette I have for fun; but am plenty sick of the push to remove sinful behaviors from our lives...  It almost makes me want to start smoking, except I don't like the taste, and I don't need any new "bad" habits.   If there is a way I can be supportive of anyone's right to smoke in public/designated areas, I'm all for it.   I do have a girlfriend who has an asthmatic lil one and smokes in the car with which I do disagree.    M

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RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/17/2007 12:34:41 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Until smoking in a bar harms unwilling people (who are not forced to frequent an establishment clearly sign posted a smoking establishment) I object to social fascists interfering in my freedom to smoke. It has nothing to do with relativism, it is to do with wanting puritanical fascists to fuck off out of my life. Don't those puritans learn from their stupid idiotic war on drugs and prohibition in the pre-war America that their policies are totally fucked up?



I agree. We will have non-smoking and smoking establishments soon. When the day comes, any non-smoker going into a smoking bar takes their chances and plays by the rules. Similarly, a smoker will not be allowed to smoke in a non-smoking pub - if you want to go in, your call but no ciggies.

There is no "puritanical fascism" - you will have the choice to smoke yourself into oblivion providing it is done in a smoking establishment or in your home. In terms of my opinion why there should be smoke-free establishments, see my earlier posts in this thread.



_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/17/2007 12:47:45 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		NG,
You quickly make your arguments irrelevant by changing the meanings of words as it suits you. A thief is a thief, a killer is a killer; especially from the perspective of the victim in both cases.
I thought you were a man of integrity. Well - continue on; without further comment or argument from me. You've made it impossible to discuss any subject without first referencing your personal dictionary and perspective.
Someday someone else's rationalization will remove a liberty or freedom you consider "good" and "right". You should hope that those arguing on this issue, many such as myself non-smokers still exist to fight.

quote:

Excuse my ignorance to "chalk & cheese"? Is it an English delicacy that I've missed on my travels there? If you're genuniely interested, google it.
Your reference to childish now is telling.

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RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/17/2007 1:00:14 PM   
swtnsparkling


Posts: 1738
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much?

It is too Much  when just the idea that people should not be allowed to smoke in the comfort of their own home if they so please.

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Never make anyone a priority who treats you as an option 2003

Walk in Peace
A "No" uttered from deepest conviction is better than a "Yes" uttered merely to please



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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/17/2007 1:09:40 PM   
MistressLorelei


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Joined: 11/7/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


We've been here before, a car driver pollutes the local atmosphere with more carcenogens than a passing smoker. No one complains about streets full of cars spewing out carcenogens into the atmosphere which is why I tend not to take raving anti-smokers seriously.

There are plenty of smokers here in Amsterdam and as I walk round the city I don't get cigarette smoke wafting in my face. Since the last thread on here about smoking I took note as I walked around of how many times I could smell smoke or had it wafting in my face. The only way I could contrive to get smoke wafting in my face would be to fuck a smoker. However, car fumes were everywhere. Maybe the car fumes were masking the cigarette smoke?


I have been absent on the boards, but it’s nice (I think) to see things haven’t changed.

There are big differences between smoking and fumes caused by automobiles and other forms of transportation.  For one, today’s society couldn’t operate without transportation.  How would people get to work if they lived more than a mile or two away, how would products/goods/mail be delivered from coast to coast.  Also, this pollution is outdoors where smoking indoors publicly makes for forced breathing of concentrated smoke-filled air…. And for what purpose?  Someone’s ( a smoker) form of leisure.   Everyone should suffer so someone can partake in their personal activity, which happens (and yes there is proof) to harm those around them. 

It’s legal to drink, but then you can’t drive, because you can hurt someone… drink yourself silly at home.  Noise ordinances protect the disruption of others.  It’s a give and take society, or it’s no society at all.  Do as you please, so long as others can do as they please at the same time.

More and more people are doing what they can to drive more environmentally friendly cars, carpooling, walking, riding bikes, etc. and many who don’t, would if they could (financially, physically, etc).   We should do all we can, and smoking certainly does not aid society.  Could we manage without public smoking in the same way we could manage without transportation? Democratic government is pushing for more feasible ways to help pollution problems, because we realize the traffic and the pollution is a harmful problem, but smokers won't do their part, or even admit it's a problem with a simple sollution (smoke at home!).  I enjoy incense or a candle every now and then… it relaxes me.  Restaurants wouldn’t allow me to "light up" and I wouldn’t expect them to… but if that “incense” is tobacco…then its ok?

Regarding the original post, I don’t think smoking in one’s home  should be outlawed, though where children who can’t just walk outside are present, I feel differently.  It would be tortuous for me (and a great number of others) and would make me physically ill to be confined for hours in a closed up home with smoking going on, yet parents do it all day long to their small children.  Parents can go outside and smoke, but choose not to because they have the right to smoke, but don’t care about their kids’ rights to breath smoke-free air. Hypocrites I tell you… hypocrites!

While we want to keep our rights to do as we please (in this lifestyle and beyond), we can't forget that if everyone did as they please, none of us would have any freedom at all.   Don't we all lose if all of us are selfish, and is being considerate to the fellow human beings who share the same space so difficult?   I guess so.

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RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/17/2007 1:18:55 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: swtnsparkling

RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much?

It is too Much  when just the idea that people should not be allowed to smoke in the comfort of their own home if they so please.


swtnsparkling, I'm assuming you're directing the above at me because you've replied to one of my posts (rather than a general reply). I'm in full agreement with the point above and have never said anything to the contrary. 


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RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/17/2007 1:20:45 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei

I have been absent on the boards, but it’s nice (I think) to see things haven’t changed.

There are big differences between smoking and fumes caused by automobiles and other forms of transportation.  For one, today’s society couldn’t operate without transportation.  How would people get to work if they lived more than a mile or two away, how would products/goods/mail be delivered from coast to coast.  Also, this pollution is outdoors where smoking indoors publicly makes for forced breathing of concentrated smoke-filled air…. And for what purpose?  Someone’s ( a smoker) form of leisure.   Everyone should suffer so someone can partake in their personal activity, which happens (and yes there is proof) to harm those around them. 


Let me think real hard about this.

In a city like Amsterdam (and this could apply to any western city) the public transport is so good no one needs to drive a car in the city.

As for people who live more than a mile or two from work, well how about er......walking or riding a bike? I thought you anti-smokers were into looking after you health?

Well is all leisure pollution is to be banned let's get rid of all that useless driving or barbecues or whatever because it only makes people fat and obesity is a bigger health risk than smoking in western society.

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? - 1/17/2007 1:25:22 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei

It’s legal to drink, but then you can’t drive, because you can hurt someone… drink yourself silly at home.  Noise ordinances protect the disruption of others.  It’s a give and take society, or it’s no society at all.  Do as you please, so long as others can do as they please at the same time.

While we want to keep our rights to do as we please (in this lifestyle and beyond), we can't forget that if everyone did as they please, none of us would have any freedom at all.   Don't we all lose if all of us are selfish, and is being considerate to the fellow human beings who share the same space so difficult?   I guess so.



Nail on the head.

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I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 60
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