RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much?

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Zensee -> RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? (1/18/2007 3:31:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: starshineowned Don't even attempt to try and tell me that doing such a controlled study is unethical. Where did you dream this crap up? They do controlled studies on many things under controlled environments with people who agree to be a part of the studies. So don't even. Sorry but I can and I will. Your experiment, as described below, is impractical and unethical. quote: ORIGINAL: starshineowned Like someone mentioned already..unless these tests were conducted in a controlled setting and environment with continuous purified air so that nothing else was present Except the cigarette smoke... For one thing, isolating test populations of humans, in purified-air (the control) and purified-air plus tobacco smoke environments, for a sufficient length of time to produce results, is impractical. Secondly, exposing humans to suspected toxins with the intent of testing their reactions, went out of ethical vogue just after WW2. In fact it is a modern requirement to discontinue human trials of drugs that produce either clearly dangerous results, early on, or (in the case of seriously ill subjects) where the efficacy of the drug is proven and withholding a novel treatment would be unethical. Anyway, you don’t need lab experiments with humans to establish cause. The data can be extracted from existing statistics. There may be some controversy about the interpretation of those statistics but to claim that there is no valid proof of harm from tobacco use is pure bullshit. With regards your inconvenience defense. Again, why should I have to go looking for a new swimming pool every time you choose to relax your bladder control? Breathing is necessary for survival. Smoking is not. Survival trumps mere cravings every time. If you bother to read my entire posts you would see that I do not advocate an outright ban but I do believe it is incumbent on smokers to mitigate the impact they have on others, not the job of breathers to seek refuge every time a smoker has a nic fit. Z.

starshineowned -> RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? (1/18/2007 3:36:36 PM)
quote: Except as people have pointed out in this thread there are plenty of products that either directly or tangently cause deaths that are legal or already currently legal. The absence of a ban does not negate actual scientific data that clearly shows ciggarette smokes danger to smokers and also to people (and children) who regularly breathe in cigarette smoke (I'm not going to copy and paste any more data since I've done it repeatedly). The only problem I really see with this data is that for all the data you can google up supporting your claim..you can also come up with exact opposite studies that prooved nothing or such little results of significance to warrant any type of Governmental actions. Look at some of the reporst posted in this thread already that directly contradict the cdc reports you provided. So who's telling the truth? Some people say they got cancer, know people who got cancer or kids who have their asthma triggered more in this friends home where they smoke versus another that doesnt. For all those people saying this..you have just as many stating that they grew up, infact their entire family grew up living amongst smokers, and no one has any health issues beyond the simple cold. So who do you believe there? Because of these types of direct contradictions on all fronts that are readily presented, and as equally oh so factual..the use of Government infringement on peoples rights and civil libertys is the only thing I see that is Unethical. So to anyone that supports this action being taken ..whats your next target of interest? Me? I think I'll go after a ban on anyone being allowed to pop popcorn in public places. Why? Because the smell of it makes me turn 3 shades of green, and nauseated to the point of gagging. Immediate effects to I can present. Just pop popcorn around me or let me enter a place that still has the lingering smell of it. Well Wishes starshine Happy slave of Master Delvin

ShiftedJewel -> RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? (1/18/2007 3:42:56 PM)
You know Merc... that's all anyone is asking for. If non-smokers don't want to be around smokers... fine, no one is forcing them. Just leave us alone... that simple. Don't make us outlaws, or criminals or bad guys... just back off and live in your non-smoking world. So many people just don't get it. It isn't even about being able to smoke in a bar... it's about personal freedoms! If I don't want to wear my seatbelt I shouldn't have to, if I don't want to wear a helmet I shouldn't have to, if I want to eat transfat (whatever that is) every day for the rest of my life that should be my choice!! I'm an adult and capable of making my own choices.. and don't throw in that crap about little ones being exposed to my choices... I want that choice as well! You people complain about smokers taking too many breaks at work... guess what... that's self imposed!! You non-smokers complained long and loud about smoke in the work place and now that you have your smoke free work zone you're still bitching! Now the smokers aren't doing their fair share! Yes we are!!! WE'RE spending a small fortune and paying rediculous taxes... we picked up the slack in other ways. That's right up there with all home owners having to pay higher taxes to help pay for the schools... I don't have any kids in ANY school so I don't see why I should have to pay for it... I think they should make parents pay for it all... raise tuition! You don't want equality, you want everything your way. Well, guess what? There is gonna come a time when your life is gonna be disrupted or inconveinenced by some new "ban" on one thing or another and I would like to say what so many others have said... I'll be right there fighting for your personal freedoms.... but I'd be lying... I'll be laughing my ass off. *Jewel*

Zensee -> RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? (1/18/2007 3:50:24 PM)
Any luck finding a popcorn free movie theatre near you, starshine? (Are you alergic to corn or is it just that heady, buttery odor that turns you?) Mercnbeth: I support choice. I just feel that it is the responsibility of smokers to moderate the effect of their habit on others rather than the publics' responsibility to find safe havens from smokers. I also take issue with smokers dismissing concerns about health effects or claiming that smoke isn't a bother in other ways. That's just crap. Smoke if you want to but take full responsibility for keeping that choice purely personal. This threads almost as much fun as the Dawkins one. Perhaps ther should be a special firbidden topics forum, or a super thread where we can conflate abortion, cigs, god, creationism, 9/11 and twue subbishness. Did I miss any? Z.

Zensee -> RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? (1/18/2007 3:54:36 PM)
At the risk of hijacking the thread: ShiftedJewel: Seatbelts don't just protect you, they protect all the other cars too. They keep you in your seat and prevent minor accidents from becoming major ones. A seatbelt is as important for vehicle safety as a clear head, clean windows, good tyres and brakes. If you are ok with people driving death traps on the highway I'll accept your point, otherwise... Z.

meatcleaver -> RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? (1/18/2007 4:03:39 PM)
A car hitting a car hurts people. You sat in a none smoking establishment are not being hurt by a smoker sat in a smoking establishment across the street.

LadieofShadows -> RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? (1/18/2007 4:34:44 PM)
as a smoker I can see both sides of this particular coin.it seems to Me that everyone out there these days is looking for a reason to bitch and whine about what everyone else is up to.we as smokers know the risks,we arent stupid,but you non smokers just need to lighten up.with everything else going on in the world,is this the best you people have?why not stamp out AIDS,hunger and homelessness first and then Ill consider quitting smoking if thats what it takes for yall to just stop the insanity.oh yeah...lets not forget rampant crime and illegal drugs in schools...sounds kind of petty stacked against that, now doesnt it?

ShiftedJewel -> RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? (1/18/2007 4:49:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zensee At the risk of hijacking the thread: ShiftedJewel: Seatbelts don't just protect you, they protect all the other cars too. They keep you in your seat and prevent minor accidents from becoming major ones. A seatbelt is as important for vehicle safety as a clear head, clean windows, good tyres and brakes. If you are ok with people driving death traps on the highway I'll accept your point, otherwise... Z. Are you really going to try to tell me that my seatbelt will protect the people in other cars? I'm good but I didn't know I was that good. You wanna explain that a little better? I don't have a clue what people driving death traps has to do with my freedom to choose whether or not I wear a seat belt? And personally I don't care if you accept my point, at least not if it's going to make you pull nonsensical responses out of your ass. But I'll try really hard to make this as clear as possible... I want that freedom to CHOOSE, I don't need big brother standing over my shoulder telling me what to wear, use, or eat. If you are going to refute what I have to say at least make sense. *Jewel*

Jack45 -> RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? (1/18/2007 4:51:50 PM)
quote: Prescription Errors Kill, Injure Americans, Report Says By Marc Kaufman Washington Post Staff Writer Thursday, July 20, 2006; 11:06 AM At least 1.5 million Americans are sickened, injured and killed each year by avoidable errors in prescribing, dispensing and taking medications, the influential Institute of Medicine concludes in a major report released today. Mistakes in giving drugs are so prevalent in hospitals that, on average, a patient will be subjected to a medication error each day he or she fills a hospital bed The all-knowing gods in white coats Doctors and Hospitals Make Me Sick

Real0ne -> RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? (1/18/2007 5:10:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zensee This threads almost as much fun as the Dawkins one. Perhaps ther should be a special firbidden topics forum, or a super thread where we can conflate abortion, cigs, god, creationism, 9/11 and twue subbishness. Did I miss any? Z. all of my fav topics, dont forget waco, ruby ridge, oklahoma federal bld, masons, illuminatti, frderal reserve, taxes, democracy etc etc etc... all the fun stuff! some of my other fav topics too LOL

Zensee -> RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? (1/18/2007 5:17:54 PM)
First apologies to all for the side bar discussion / hijack. MC, I was not using seatbelts as part of the tobacco argument, in this instance. I was responding, out of context, to the old saw - it's my choice and it's not hurting anyone else. ShiftedJewel: Sorry if I was not clear. A driver (not wearing a seat belt) is involved in a minor collision, hits a curb, pothole or other obstacle, resulting in them being dislodged from the driver's seat and losing control (in one case, involving a school bus, the driver was thrown head first into the step well and knocked unconscious). The vehicle goes on to have a secondary and more serious collision. In my fleet we are required to wear a belt primarily for this reason, not for personal safety. In this example, as an argument for freedom of choice tobacco wise, seatbelt use supports the responsibility first argument. Your responsibility to protect others from exposure to the dangers of your personal choices comes before the liberty to enjoy the perceived benefits of those choices. In other words, it is unfair for a you to make me accept a risk you take, especially when that risk is unnecessary. Z.

Real0ne -> RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? (1/18/2007 5:27:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jack45 quote: Prescription Errors Kill, Injure Americans, Report Says By Marc Kaufman Washington Post Staff Writer Thursday, July 20, 2006; 11:06 AM At least 1.5 million Americans are sickened, injured and killed each year by avoidable errors in prescribing, dispensing and taking medications, the influential Institute of Medicine concludes in a major report released today. Mistakes in giving drugs are so prevalent in hospitals that, on average, a patient will be subjected to a medication error each day he or she fills a hospital bed The all-knowing gods in white coats Doctors and Hospitals Make Me Sick yep and i am terrified of being put under in a hospital for those very reasons. i am a total bitch when i go in and they spend hours talking with me or i leave and tell them i am going to a hospital that knows what the fuck they are doing.... that opens eyes usually... worlds worst patient here... they would never have gotten as far as an ekg with me like that guy much less nitro etc etc etc!

starshineowned -> RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? (1/18/2007 5:46:01 PM)
I do not know why it makes me physically ill. It is just the smell of it produced during popping of it. If there is no popcorn odor then I can eat the popcorn. It is not a favorite of mine so I don't even bother. I don't frequent movie theaters anymore but maybe once a year if that, and when I do I don't hang around the concession stand. For whatever reason it is just the smell or odor given off while popping or lingered from this process. It however is a legitmate physical ill that happens everytime. It is a immediate response. So I guess if the odor were to waif into my home from the neighbors home as they popped it..I'd have to ask them to move because they are infringing on my rights to breathe fresh air free of this horrid odor that makes me physially ill. Coming to a legislation near you! Well Wishes starshine Happy slave of Master Delvin

MistressYlwa -> RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? (1/18/2007 7:38:44 PM)
There were tmes when I wasn't sure whether to laugh or cry, when reading all the posts. I was simply asking if anyone else thought that the laws were possibly getting out of hand, as they started intruding into smokers "personal, private" places. Not sure how to got to seatbelts, bars, and medical studies. LOL But will say I have learned alot. Mistress Ylwa

sleazy -> RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? (1/18/2007 7:55:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MistressYlwa I was simply asking if anyone else thought that the laws were possibly getting out of hand, as they started intruding into smokers "personal, private" places. Yes Is that ok as an answer? [:)]

Sinergy -> RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? (1/18/2007 7:55:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne I'll defend that right of choice as dilegently as you fight against it. Maybe someday there will be a liberty you currently enjoy that aother well intentioned group wants to prohibit. You know what? I'll be there fighting for that too. I am always fascinated by these sorts of people championing the rights of the downtrodden, who fail to comprehend the fact that I have a right to not breath somebody else's cigarette smoke. If it works for you, I say go with it, but please dont waste our time with the nonsense blather that you are defending people's rights. I am a person. I have rights. Start defending them. Sinergy

NorthernGent -> RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? (1/18/2007 11:43:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel So many people just don't get it. It isn't even about being able to smoke in a bar... it's about personal freedoms! If I don't want to wear my seatbelt I shouldn't have to, if I don't want to wear a helmet I shouldn't have to, if I want to eat transfat (whatever that is) every day for the rest of my life that should be my choice!! No, ShiftedJewel, you don't get it. With regard to the seatbelt, why should someone else have to deal with your mangled body lying in the middle road with your head smashed in because you've gone flying through your windscreen. That is not being an "adult", it is completely irresponsible. Freedom does not include the right to compromise another persons' personal space/freedom. That's what children do...."gimme, gimme, gimme..." without considering the consequences and impact on others. Also, if you're lucky enough to be scraped off the road with your life in one piece then why should tax-payers have to pay for your stay in hospital because of your social irresponsibility (presuming tax-payers contribute towards this in the US)? As a point of principle, it is completely irresponsible to take the line that "I'll do whatever I want regardless of the consequences". You share the planet with other people. Thus, you need to control the impact you have on other people. This whole debate boils down to this: do you have any regard for the people you share the planet with or do you think the planet is yours to do as you wish?

meatcleaver -> RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? (1/18/2007 11:49:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne I'll defend that right of choice as dilegently as you fight against it. Maybe someday there will be a liberty you currently enjoy that aother well intentioned group wants to prohibit. You know what? I'll be there fighting for that too. I am always fascinated by these sorts of people championing the rights of the downtrodden, who fail to comprehend the fact that I have a right to not breath somebody else's cigarette smoke. If it works for you, I say go with it, but please dont waste our time with the nonsense blather that you are defending people's rights. I am a person. I have rights. Start defending them. Sinergy What you say is equally nonsense and blather because you object to someone smoking who would be in a building that you don't frequent. You position isn't about breathing clean air, its about denial of someone part taking in an activity of which you don't approve. You have a right to your puritanical stance but don't dish it up dressed in some human right about clean air, this isn't a clean air issue. I've been to California and what you say about clean air is nonsense. The only clean air issue I could imagine being there is the smog around LA and the Central Valley. There just aren't that many smokers in California to cause those issues.

eyesopened -> RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? (1/19/2007 3:12:42 AM)
quote: Already said well by another non-smoker... quote: Meatcleaver: You do know that this is untestable and unprovable and this is typical anti-smoking propaganda? If the US government really thought they could save 400,000 lives a year by banning smoking, they would be criminally negligent not to. Don't you think they would ban the purchasing of tobacco or are they quite happy to see so many American citizens dying? i agree entirely. Which is correct, is smoking the cause of hundreds of thousands of deaths and the government is criminal in its greed for tax revenues? Or is smoking not proven to be the cause of those deaths and it's just another justification for bigotry? We can't ban tobacco because it will cause problems? That's a little weak, i think. If smoking and second-hand smoke is so dangerous then the public should SCREAM for it being illegal. But people would rather have someone who its politically correct to hate. It's a whole lot easier and also fun! Get rid of smoking and then what? Just a little aside.... When i lived in Northern Nevada a casino opened in Reno as being the ONLY smoke-free casino. They advertised extensively for months prior to opening, especially to the granola-eating tree-huggers in Northern California and Oregon and they figured they would be a huge success by marketing to this niche. They opened and closed their doors within the same month. Seems even non-smokers have their priorities LOL.

feminboots -> RE: Smoking Ban - When is it too much? (1/19/2007 3:28:36 AM)
Shifted Jewel, I couldn't agree with you more!

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