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Who Pays Our Taxes - 1/18/2007 5:16:03 PM

KenDckey

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I was doing some interesting reading from the Congressional Budget Office

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/57xx/doc5746/08-13-EffectiveFedTaxRates.pdf

Seems the top 10% of our taxpayer earners pay about 62.8% of the total tax revenues which will increase at the rate of an average of .5% per year.   The top 50% of the taxpayers pay 96.54% of our taxes.

It also appears that under current laws the low income taxpayers share continues to drop at the rate of about 1.5% peryear.

Then I read in the NY Times that when the Dems took control of the congress changed the rules by amending the super majority tax hike rule so that it can be a simple majority by having a simple majority aprove it.   The NY Times also was complaining that the tax cuts helped the rich (top 50%) more than the low income citizens.

So What I conclude is that

1.    The Dems in congress are about to increase taxes if they can get it past a veto.
2.    The Dems in congress want to penalize the rich for not paying the other +\- 4% of the taxes the other 50% of us pay.
3.     The Dems in Congress are trying to make everyone equal in income regardless of how they acquired their money.

Whatcha think guys?

Post #: 1

RE: Who Pays Our Taxes - 1/18/2007 6:14:13 PM

Amaros

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I think that under the Clinton-Gore tax rates the budget was balanced and the top quintile of taxpayers made more money than they ever made - the top 1% saw income increases very of very nearly 50%.

The latest figures show that the top 1% has seen their income decline by 17% after adjustment for the lower taxes - and everybody elses income is pretty much down too.

I think this because these are the facts - Dubya has succeeded in growing the pie lower, and managed to make the last deficit look like mild while doing it. Another neo-con miracle.

Google up the "benefits principle" when you get a chance, would'ja?

(in reply to KenDckey)

Post #: 2

RE: Who Pays Our Taxes - 1/19/2007 12:05:51 AM

KenDckey

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Now with some conjucture on my part, after you take out the war budget (without regard to how we feel abut the war) the budget is pretty much balanced (something that neither side can really claim because it is impossible for an organiation the size of our government to get exactly right to the penny).

And I believe that no administration can claim a balanced budget during wartime. I just don't think it is possible. And if it is possible, what are they going to cut? I mean what the heck we were still paying the Spanish American War (phone tax) until a couple years ago.

(in reply to Amaros)

Post #: 3

RE: Who Pays Our Taxes - 1/19/2007 12:09:41 AM

KenDckey

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Benefits Principle

The benefits principle of taxation states that only the beneficiaries of a particular government program should have to pay for it.
ok I copied this. So what you are saying is that if a program benefits the poor, they should pay for it and not the rich? and the soldiers should pay for the war to the exclusion of all others? doesn't make good sense to me. Explain it better please.

(in reply to KenDckey)

Post #: 4

RE: Who Pays Our Taxes - 1/19/2007 7:36:39 AM

Amaros

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In order to get wwealthy in this country, you need to use the infrastructure and services to a greater extent than everybody else, i.e., things are made in factories, which use large quantites of resources, communications, energy, raw materials, etc., all of which have to be transported, usually over highways, and this all involves use of infrastructure, both physical and regulatory - once manufactured, the good have to be distributed, again over the highways. If by sea, then the Navy exists to protect oceanborne commerce from piracy, etc., etc.

Without this infrasturucture, it would become prohibitive for the vast majority of modern merchandise and commodities to be produced, manufactured or distributed.

Without this infrastructure, many of these markets would not exist at all.

In short, without this infrastructure, without the military and police to protect property and trade routes, without regulation to prevent unfair competition, without public education to provide a large pool of educated workers - the wealthy would not be wealthy.

They aren't paying "too much", they are paying their fair share in proportion to their reliance and the burdens they place on the infrastructure while getting rich - it's part of the cost of doing business - where did you think all this stuff came from, Jesus?

It doesn't fall from the sky Ken, somebody has to pay for it, why not the people who use it and benefit from it the most? What's with the free ride stuff?

(in reply to KenDckey)

Post #: 5

RE: Who Pays Our Taxes - 1/19/2007 7:41:35 AM

meatcleaver

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If you are on minimum wage, I can't imagine anyone being able to afford to pay taxes and live and people working on minimum wage are being exploited by the rich so the rich should at least have to pay taxes from their excessive earnings and profits.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to KenDckey)

Post #: 6

RE: Who Pays Our Taxes - 1/19/2007 7:51:17 AM

BDSM05478

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let the rich shoulder the majority of the cost, most barely make a livable wage today. I am not in the class that has to worry about taxes I still get money back and do not aspire to be in a tax bracket over 50K. I was wondering to the OP how can any branch get something past a veto? is that not the point of a veto, to stop any action? also it is the Coast Gaurd that protects us from piracy, just an fyi.

_____________________________

"It's a fool that looks for logic in the chambers of the human heart" U.E. McGill

"Never let the future disturb you. You will meet it, if you have to, with the same weapons of reason which today arm you against the present." - Marcus Aurelius

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 7

RE: Who Pays Our Taxes - 1/19/2007 8:01:00 AM

QuietlySeeking

Posts: 297
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

I was doing some interesting reading from the Congressional Budget Office

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/57xx/doc5746/08-13-EffectiveFedTaxRates.pdf

Seems the top 10% of our taxpayer earners pay about 62.8% of the total tax revenues which will increase at the rate of an average of .5% per year. The top 50% of the taxpayers pay 96.54% of our taxes.

It also appears that under current laws the low income taxpayers share continues to drop at the rate of about 1.5% peryear.

I'd also like to point out from that document that the top 10% (which equates to anyone making around $100,000 or over) pays HALF of the tax revenues. The bottom 20% do not pay any taxes AT ALL and are actually withdrawing money from the taxes equal to a 5% bonus!

I make twice as much money as a friend of mine. Some would think that I should pay 2x-3x the taxes that she does...and I would love to do just that. I pay 4x what she does in federal taxes with approximately equal deductions. Is that equitable?

How about a straightline 15% tax rate (for all of those flat-taxers out there?) The average middle class family would see an increase of about 10%-15% for their tax bill. The average slightly above poverty level family would see a 2%-3% increase...and the rich? well, they would actually see a 4-5% DECREASE....hmmm, again, that sounds equitable. BTW, I came up with those figures by taking the median income and using CBO figures on average deductions and calculated using the Federal Tax Tables.

(in reply to KenDckey)

Post #: 8

RE: Who Pays Our Taxes - 1/19/2007 8:02:41 AM

Amaros

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Regressive taxation is singled in WoN out as one of the factors in the downfall of the worlds great financial empires.

The Coast Guard does not operate in Indonesia or the Persian Gulf that I'm aware.

(in reply to BDSM05478)

Post #: 9

RE: Who Pays Our Taxes - 1/19/2007 10:06:34 AM

toservez

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King George was the first President in our history to lower taxes during wartime. In effect he is paying for his war on credit cards for the next generation to pay which will mean higher taxes for all people.

There is no fair way for taxes. You have expenses and need revenues to pay for it. Anybody who thinks the rich have been suffering in this country while the poor and middle class have been gaining ground is pretty darn insane. Everyone should pay taxes but Bill Gates would have never gotten rich if no one could afford to buy a computer.

Expenses and revenues have to match, the rich have always paid more in taxes, and just look before Reagan came in to office what the tax rates for the wealthy were. They were insane. It is about perspective.

_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

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(in reply to Amaros)

Post #: 10

RE: Who Pays Our Taxes - 1/19/2007 10:15:12 AM

LadyJulieAnn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

If you are on minimum wage, I can't imagine anyone being able to afford to pay taxes and live and people working on minimum wage are being exploited by the rich so the rich should at least have to pay taxes from their excessive earnings and profits.

People living on minimum wage are being exploited by the rich? How so? How about some people working on minimum wage are doing so because they did not take a path to lead them to make more?

Be well,
Julie

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 11

RE: Who Pays Our Taxes - 1/19/2007 12:30:23 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyJulieAnn

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

If you are on minimum wage, I can't imagine anyone being able to afford to pay taxes and live and people working on minimum wage are being exploited by the rich so the rich should at least have to pay taxes from their excessive earnings and profits.

People living on minimum wage are being exploited by the rich? How so? How about some people working on minimum wage are doing so because they did not take a path to lead them to make more?

Be well,
Julie

Aaah This is like the 'anyone can be President' argument. It's impossible. Whether you like it or not the economic system in the US and any other country for that matter is skewed towards the rich and powerful. Yes, people can make it but they are the exceptions that prove the rule but when I was in America, from what I saw anyway, there were an awful lot of people for who the American Dream was just that, a dream. A society can't function without people at the bottom anymore than a society can function without people in the middle and at the top. You need the shit shovellers and the fruit pickers, probably more than the Bill Gates of this world.

OK That is my take but then I've never believed in the nonsense of the American dream and other such fairy tales. That's all propaganda to get people out of bed in the morning and sweat for the rich.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to LadyJulieAnn)

Post #: 12

RE: Who Pays Our Taxes - 1/19/2007 1:20:47 PM

QuietlySeeking

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Joined: 5/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Aaah This is like the 'anyone can be President' argument. It's impossible. Whether you like it or not the economic system in the US and any other country for that matter is skewed towards the rich and powerful. Yes, people can make it but they are the exceptions that prove the rule but when I was in America, from what I saw anyway, there were an awful lot of people for who the American Dream was just that, a dream. A society can't function without people at the bottom anymore than a society can function without people in the middle and at the top. You need the shit shovellers and the fruit pickers, probably more than the Bill Gates of this world.

OK That is my take but then I've never believed in the nonsense of the American dream and other such fairy tales. That's all propaganda to get people out of bed in the morning and sweat for the rich.

Many of the people who fill these low-end jobs are immigrants who are very happy to be able to send money home. Then as their affluence increases in the country, they begin to move into a higher financial strata....My ancestry is German; we were once at the bottom of the food chain here in the US. My great-great grandfather had to endure the slurs and racial baiting and bias, but he and his brothers kept faith in that "American Dream". Four generations later, I am firmly ensconced in the middle class. My generation in my family will be the wealthier (financially) than all of the preceding generations combined, but I owe it to them...who kept "sweating for the rich" to place me where I am today.

It may not be the best system in the world, but it's the only one where people can truly change from one "class" to another.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 13

RE: Who Pays Our Taxes - 1/19/2007 2:15:35 PM

Amaros

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quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietlySeeking

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

I was doing some interesting reading from the Congressional Budget Office

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/57xx/doc5746/08-13-EffectiveFedTaxRates.pdf

Seems the top 10% of our taxpayer earners pay about 62.8% of the total tax revenues which will increase at the rate of an average of .5% per year. The top 50% of the taxpayers pay 96.54% of our taxes.

It also appears that under current laws the low income taxpayers share continues to drop at the rate of about 1.5% peryear.

I'd also like to point out from that document that the top 10% (which equates to anyone making around $100,000 or over) pays HALF of the tax revenues. The bottom 20% do not pay any taxes AT ALL and are actually withdrawing money from the taxes equal to a 5% bonus!

I make twice as much money as a friend of mine. Some would think that I should pay 2x-3x the taxes that she does...and I would love to do just that. I pay 4x what she does in federal taxes with approximately equal deductions. Is that equitable?

How about a straightline 15% tax rate (for all of those flat-taxers out there?) The average middle class family would see an increase of about 10%-15% for their tax bill. The average slightly above poverty level family would see a 2%-3% increase...and the rich? well, they would actually see a 4-5% DECREASE....hmmm, again, that sounds equitable. BTW, I came up with those figures by taking the median income and using CBO figures on average deductions and calculated using the Federal Tax Tables.

The poor do pay tax, they pay a 15% flat tax, it's called the Social Security payroll tax - it's a tax although republicans like to pretend it isn't, SCOTUS ruled that it is a tax, and congress spends it like any other tax.

So correcting for your 5% bonus, a person making minimum wage is paying 10% of their income in taxes - it means that most of the middle quintiles are probobly paying out higher percentages of they're income in taxes than the upper quintile.

Almost one quarter of what you do pay intaxes goes to paying interest on the debt, down from nearly a third before Bush and Clinton raised taxes to pay it off - expect to see that figure steadily increase from now on.

Try looking up how much of the countries wealth the top 20% controls.

< Message edited by Amaros -- 1/19/2007 2:17:18 PM >

(in reply to QuietlySeeking)

Post #: 14

RE: Who Pays Our Taxes - 1/19/2007 2:32:23 PM

Amaros

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyJulieAnn

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

If you are on minimum wage, I can't imagine anyone being able to afford to pay taxes and live and people working on minimum wage are being exploited by the rich so the rich should at least have to pay taxes from their excessive earnings and profits.

People living on minimum wage are being exploited by the rich? How so? How about some people working on minimum wage are doing so because they did not take a path to lead them to make more?

Be well,
Julie

So these jobs are not worth doing, or don't need to be done? The people doing them do not need to live?

The Fed uses interest rates to control the growth of the economy, primarily by affecting the labor market.

i.e., labor operateds on market principle of supply and demand like anything else, when demand exceeds supply, a tight labor market, then wages tend to go up - this can cause inflation, so the Fed raises interest rates, firms cut back on hiring, the jobless rate goes up, and wages stay level - to then turn aroudn and argue that raising the minimum wage is "distorting the market" an egregius mendacity, much like the "fairness" argument.

It's getting hard for a single person to get by on minimum wage, let alone a family - there are people with full time jobs on welfare. And because you don't have to pay benefits to part time workers, a sizable portion of the country get's by on part time minimum wage jobs - i't cheaper to hire two part time temps at minumum wage than one degreed worker at salary - Microsoft had people in part the same time "temp" jobs for like ten years.

If it looks like firms will have to start giving them raises to keep them, the Fed raises interest rates, congress lets in more foreign workers, etc. - we need immigrant workers, but congress and the Fed essentially conspire to distort the labor market and keep wages down.

Adjusted for inflation since the last minimum wage increase, it would be right around 7.50, 8.00 and hour - if the labor market were not deliberately distorted.

(in reply to LadyJulieAnn)

Post #: 15

RE: Who Pays Our Taxes - 1/19/2007 2:38:04 PM

servantforuse

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Anyone can be elected President in this Country. Just ask the peanut farmer from Georgia, Jimmy "the socialist" Carter...

(in reply to Amaros)

Post #: 16

RE: Who Pays Our Taxes - 1/19/2007 2:53:36 PM

subfever

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Reply to no one in particular:

This thread will no doubt prove to regress to the typical right vs. left nonsense that most people endear themselves to. After all, a thread doesn't persist unless there is emotion attached to it, does it?

Go ahead, knock yourselves out with the same old, tired, finger-pointing... while I shake my head in resign and the powers-that-be laugh their asses off at the masses tripping over themselves, blaming and fighting each other, thoroughly lost in the illusions, and being emotionally manipulated to do exactly what they want us to do.

"It's you damn tax and spend democrats!"

"No it isn't, it's you rotten deficit-building republicans!"

<Yawn> ... As if voting for either would change the big picture.

What should the tax rate be for US citizens earning wages within the borders of the US? ... Zero.

It was no mistake or coincidence that the Federal Income Tax and the Federal Reserve Act both originated in 1913. But few people seem to give a hoot.

I guess we get more out of exploiting the emotional charge we get from pointing fingers and one-upping each other. This is similar to the charge we get from watching trash TV, and serves about the same purpose... non-productive entertainment.

Yeah sure, there's absolutely a class war going on; but it has little to do with left vs. right.

(in reply to KenDckey)

Post #: 17

RE: Who Pays Our Taxes - 1/19/2007 3:52:41 PM

QuietlySeeking

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros
The poor do pay tax, they pay a 15% flat tax, it's called the Social Security payroll tax - it's a tax although republicans like to pretend it isn't, SCOTUS ruled that it is a tax, and congress spends it like any other tax.

So correcting for your 5% bonus, a person making minimum wage is paying 10% of their income in taxes - it means that most of the middle quintiles are probobly paying out higher percentages of they're income in taxes than the upper quintile.

Almost one quarter of what you do pay intaxes goes to paying interest on the debt, down from nearly a third before Bush and Clinton raised taxes to pay it off - expect to see that figure steadily increase from now on.

Try looking up how much of the countries wealth the top 20% controls.

Get the facts straight...
1. the portion that the minimum wage earner is responsible for is 7.5% not 15%. The employer is responsible for the other 7.5%. The only people who are responsible for the full 15% is those who are not W-2, which is normally NOT minimum wage earners.

2. Social Security may be a tax, but it is not calculated into the funds that the IRS collects. The Congress actually decides who gets that money...unfortunately, the Congress has decided to "borrow" money from the SSA to make the federal budget.

3. The majority of the wealth that is controlled by that top 20% resides here in the U.S. is by persons who have worked VERY hard to get what they've got (or by the descendents of those people). Would you trade 16 hour days 6-7 days a week for 15 years for the billions of dollars that people like Bill Gates or Oprah Winfrey has accumulated? Personally, I'll be happy on what I make and how many hours I work to make it. I spoke with my CEO's son once about his dad's work habits which is anecdotally how I came up with the 16 / 6-7 / 15 figures mentioned above.

4. The thread wasn't necessarily how we *spend* the money, but how we get the money. I'll agree that the spending policies and taxation sucks.

5. The proportion of non-income-based taxes (regressive taxes like sales tax) that people pay works out to about the same percentage of income from the highest to lowest tax brackets because rich people buy more expensive "stuff". As a percentage of income, sales tax (and other 'regressive' taxes) actually becomes a "flat tax".

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros
Adjusted for inflation since the last minimum wage increase, it would be right around 7.50, 8.00 and hour - if the labor market were not deliberately distorted.

And you aren't taking into account actual market rates....here in Atlanta,GA the actual rate that someone working at low-end jobs is around $8.25 an hour. Hmm, it seems market pressures HAVE made a higher "minimum wage".

(in reply to Amaros)

Post #: 18

RE: Who Pays Our Taxes - 1/19/2007 5:12:49 PM

subfever

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quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietlySeeking

3. The majority of the wealth that is controlled by that top 20% resides here in the U.S. is by persons who have worked VERY hard to get what they've got (or by the descendents of those people).

The Bill Gates and Oprah Winfreys of this world are but a small fraction of the super-rich, and only serve to perpetuate a grand illusion when used to point out an example such as yours.

The wealth of the elite is rarely the product of free enterprise and the free market alone. It comes by operating within and exploiting a network of government supports, such as licenses, regulations, subsidies, and contracts. It is the product of a sort of giveaway.

Having even more wealth than they had before, the very rich can thus buy even more government supports and giveaways and acquire even more wealth, enabling them to buy even more government supports and giveaways. And so on.

The result of the elite buying public policies is a vicious cycle, which transfers ever greater wealth and power to the very rich and away from everyone else.

(in reply to QuietlySeeking)

Post #: 19

RE: Who Pays Our Taxes - 1/19/2007 5:27:42 PM

subfever

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Joined: 5/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez

There is no fair way for taxes.

Yes there is. But as you said... it's all about perspective.

(in reply to toservez)

Post #: 20

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