RE: Who Pays Our Taxes (Full Version)

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popeye1250 -> RE: Who Pays Our Taxes (1/23/2007 10:52:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EnglishDomNW

quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietlySeeking

It may not be the best system in the world, but it's the only one where people can truly change from one "class" to another.


Can you explain to me how the same thing isn't possible in practically every democracy on earth?  I'm just curious why you say that.



DomNW, we don't really have a "class" system like you do in England.
Our system is based on how much you make not on what kind of "bloodline" you come from.
You can make $250,000 and not be considered wealthy in some parts of the country.
I've known "Dukes" and "Earls" who were on welfare here.




Amaros -> RE: Who Pays Our Taxes (1/24/2007 6:10:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Last figurees I saw for minimum wage had just over 500,000 people in the entire US being paid at the minimum wage $5.15 an hour, out of how many million working folks, I forget. Of those 500,000 over half were students or those fresh out of high school. Most of the rest of the jobs at that same pay ar held as second jobs etc.

You're not supposed to be trying to support a family on minimum wage in the first place minimum wage is for those unable to do anything more than walk and chew gum. If you are in a job that pays minimum and can't get a raise within 3-6 months then odds are you are a pretty bad employee. Labor responds to supply and demand as well, and for the most part the fact that we had 500,000 or so folks out of the tens of millions of employed people in this nation tells me supply and demand in employement is working. The problem is the labor market is shifting faster than the attitudes workers have about the jobs.


It would also include most of Wal-Marts full time employees, since they typically find a reason to fire people jsut before they have five years in and are fully vested in the benfits program, most convenience stores/gas stations, most part time jobs period, i.e., the kind that are availalable to single mothers, etc. - and if you've never worked in a convenience store, take my word, it's the most underpaid job in America, it oughta come with combat pay.





CITE your source that it includes them because the BLS statistics say you are full of it as far as "Most Walmart Employees"
They might start at minimum but they don't stay there long, not saying theraise they get is huge but it isn't minimum

BLS Characteristics of minimum wage workers
  • Minimum wage workers tend to be young. About half of workers earning $5.15 or less were under age 25, and about one-fourth of workers earning at or below the minimum wage were age 16-19. Among employed teenagers, about 9 percent earned $5.15 or less. About 2 percent of workers age 25 and over earned the minimum wage or less. Among those age 65 and over, the proportion was about 3 percent.
  • Among hourly-paid workers age 16 and over, 2 percent of those who had a high school diploma but had not gone on to college earned the minimum wage or less.
  • The industry with the highest proportion of workers with reported hourly wages at or below $5.15 was leisure and hospitality (about 14 percent). About three-fifths of all workers paid at or below the Federal minimum wage were employed in this industry, primarily in the food services and drinking places component. For many of these workers, tips and commissions supplement the hourly wages received.
  • The proportion of hourly-paid workers earning the prevailing Federal minimum wage or less has trended downward since 1979, when data first began to be collected on a regular basis.
I am citing BLS data http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2005.htm



Sure, food services too - another job that will also never give you 40 hours. As for who is or isn't making minimum wage, and trying to raise a family on it, just go ask them.

I do know people making 6.00 and even 7.00 an hour which is still less than minimum in adjusted dollars - much of it depends on where you live, wages tend to be higher in cites where competition for workers is greater - rural areas are often hit the hardest, particularly in popular areas when combined with gentrification from wealthy people relocating from the cities, it's happened a lot in Northern NM and Southern CO - first thing that happens is property taxes go up and people start losing their homes, they tend to end up 20 miles out of town in a trailer park, commuting to their minimum wage jobs.




BOUNTYHUNTER -> RE: Who Pays Our Taxes (1/24/2007 6:20:36 AM)

5.15 an hour is modern day slavery,just enought to get the poor up out of bed for another day of no hope.I couldn't feed my horses and hounds on mw.HOW familys make it is beyond belief,I was raised from hand to mouth,so I know what working class poor is all about..However we had a big garden a milk cow or two..ITS easier in the county poor or is it...WILLIAM




farglebargle -> RE: Who Pays Our Taxes (1/24/2007 6:23:19 AM)

quote:


A random CEO makes 10 million dollars, and pays 2 million of it in taxes.


I can suggest several good tax advisors to this hypothetical retard. No-one making 10 mil pays 20 points in taxes...





Archer -> RE: Who Pays Our Taxes (1/24/2007 6:59:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

[Sure, food services too - another job that will also never give you 40 hours. As for who is or isn't making minimum wage, and trying to raise a family on it, just go ask them.



With 1/4 of them being 16-19 they are not supposed to be raising a family.

With the next 1/4 of them being under 25 they shouldn't be attempting to do it either, and as for single mothers who work their butts off the problem isn't wages it's lack of support from the deadbeat dads that is the problem.

You know what Dad taught me a valuable lesson back when I was still young and that was simple. If there is no work above minimum wage where you are MOVE YOUR BUTT to someplace that has some jobs.






Archer -> RE: Who Pays Our Taxes (1/24/2007 7:06:59 AM)

Have you folks actually looked at how small the problem is??????
In a poplation of 100 million workers we have half a million working at the minimum.
If you read the reports that includes Teeagers working a part time job, Retiree age folks working a little job to supliment, and college students working part time, the mentally handicapped working jobs which is great when a company can hire them.

When you get the numbers brokendown the problem of minimum wages is all but non existant.
2% of all workers.

I have worked all my adult life and I think I woked for all of 30 days at minimum wage, after which I advanced in pay and changed jobs over time. Minimum wage is the start point for only the most basic of unskilled work, if you remain at that wage then it's your own fault because the jobs that pay more are out there and available if you are a full time working person.





Amaros -> RE: Who Pays Our Taxes (1/24/2007 7:19:12 AM)

You're basing your philosophy on and ideal situation, presumably you are a DINK (duel income, no kids). Again, not everyone has the option of working full time. I'm a single parent myself, and I can't work full time, not at what I do, which requires a lot more than 8 hour days - I'd pretty much have to work for minimum if I want to work 8 hour days, since that's all that's available. The difference between what "oughta" be and what is, is often considerable.

Lot's of people are trapped - i.e., it isn't possible working a minimum wage job to save enough money to move. I'm stuck here for different reasons, but it's true, if I moved to just about any larger city I could get work above minimum, probobly within a matter of hours, it's a whole different economy three hours away - of course rents are higher, commutes are longer, etc., etc..

And the argument cut's both ways: if it's such a small percentage, then what's the big deal about raising it? If, as you say, the market is already compensating for accumulated inflation over the last twenty years.




Archer -> RE: Who Pays Our Taxes (1/24/2007 7:35:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

You're basing your philosophy on and ideal situation, presumably you are a DINK (duel income, no kids). Again, not everyone has the option of working full time. I'm a single parent myself, and I can't work full time, not at what I do, which requires a lot more than 8 hour days - I'd pretty much have to work for minimum if I want to work 8 hour days, since that's all that's available. The difference between what "oughta" be and what is, is often considerable.

Lot's of people are trapped - i.e., it isn't possible working a minimum wage job to save enough money to move. I'm stuck here for different reasons, but it's true, if I moved to just about any larger city I could get work above minimum, probobly within a matter of hours, it's a whole different economy three hours away - of course rents are higher, commutes are longer, etc., etc..

And the argument cut's both ways: if it's such a small percentage, then what's the big deal about raising it? If, as you say, the market is already compensating for accumulated inflation over the last twenty years.



Now you get to the real issue, the big deal is simple really.
Union contracts almost universally have a clause that states the Union wage will be at least Minimum + X. So when you shift the minimum wage you also kick into effect that clause in their labor contracts. So the guy who is making a union wage of 18 an hour will get an instant raise to $21 an hour when the law kicks in.

Which is why Labor unions non of whom make minimum wage are fully behind the raise in minimum wage.

The domino effect of raising minimum wage is big. If I'm making $10 and hour and have bee there for 5 years to get those raises I was worth double minimum wage before why would I not be worth double the new minumum wage after? So I would be demanding a raise because suddenly the new guy walking in off the street is making $8 only $2 less than me with the skills gathered over 5 years experience.

Those labor costs are going to be absorbed by the consummers of everything. If it costs me $5 and hour to produce widgets now and next month it costs me $10 an hour to make them the price to my customers will go up until my profit is ithe same percentage as it was before, or I'm just gonna shut down and find a business where I can make a reasonable profit.

Did you see the last bullet The pecentage of workers at minimum wage has been declining for a decade or more, the supply and demand of labor cannot be messed with by artificial mandate without having a wave effect of inflation.

Raise it to $1,000 an hour and the supply and demand will cause things to return to equilibrium over time. Artificial shifts in the value of labor will go away, an Engineer will be worth a minimum wgae worker +$X.

As for the trapped bit I don't buy it, it may be tough to do but not impossible.




Amaros -> RE: Who Pays Our Taxes (1/24/2007 8:08:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Did you see the last bullet The pecentage of workers at minimum wage has been declining for a decade or more, the supply and demand of labor cannot be messed with by artificial mandate without having a wave effect of inflation.

Raise it to $1,000 an hour and the supply and demand will cause things to return to equilibrium over time. Artificial shifts in the value of labor will go away, an Engineer will be worth a minimum wgae worker +$X.

As for the trapped bit I don't buy it, it may be tough to do but not impossible.


Perhaps you have failed to read my previous posts - the law of supply and demand is messed with all the time, all raising minimum wage does is correct this distortion - if indeed wage demands create inflation, the Fed will simply raise interest rates, loosening the labor market with suddenly unemployed people.

They've been doing it for Twenty years, and it's the reason the income gap has grown so wide: messing with interest rates mainly affects unskilled and semiskilled workers, and has less effect of skilled and degreed workers who are less interchangable and easy to replace with illegals, etc..

Wages will go up eventually, regardless, I believe, it's simply a matter of numbers: the number of new workers entering the economy is declining, and without a steady stream of immigrant workers, the competition for workers will create a tighter labor market - the most predictable solution for management is to outsource like crazy.

Nothing I'm sure is impossible for you - but figure car payments, mandatory insurance, rent, food and clothing, and see how much is left over out of 200.00 a week - same argument applies for getting and education, etc., do the math.

Not impossible, no, just improbable, and in economics you don't plan around the best case scenario like republicans and Christians, i.e., what oughta be, you plan around the most likely, what is.

That way you don't have to sit around making excuses when shit doesn't happen according your plan, if only.






Amaros -> RE: Who Pays Our Taxes (1/24/2007 8:16:44 AM)

Also, firms can only pass on costs axiomatically in a non-competitive business environment - in a real world, competitive scenario, they are limited by price competition - management compensation might have to take a cut. Then again, there's always outsourcing.




Archer -> RE: Who Pays Our Taxes (1/24/2007 8:17:44 AM)

We're notso far apart in what we're seeing we are in the way we think the situation should be solved. Market forces have already set a defacto minimum wage in most parts of the country, and in those places where they have not it would be cheaper and easier for the government to simply move the excess workers to locations where work is available than to raise the wages across the board.

Fact is the inflation caused by raising the minimum will in short order return the same situations of life the folks you speak of are in today. They will have a short term gain and over the next two or three years the ecoomy will shift around them until they are in relatively the same comparative situation.

The cost of living will rise until the equilibrium is returned and minimum wage will buy the exact same level of goods and services it does today, reguardless of how high you want to raise it.

You want to see out sourcing go wild just watch when they raise the minimum, and the domino effect hits and high skilled workers demand higher wages and the pressure to cut costs increases the inclination to send jobs overseas where the labor is cheaper.




Amaros -> RE: Who Pays Our Taxes (1/24/2007 8:36:44 AM)

Then that's just what would have happened if the Fed had not messed with the labor market in the first place - you are really arguing for maintaining artificial labor market distortion. Personally, I don't see this happening like you say, the price of some services might go up some, but since we import most of our stuff from China, I don't see it causing excessive inflation, even if demand increases - China can absorb demand increases for quite a while I'm betting, they have no labor shortage.

i.e., the conditions are not the same as they were when the Kennedy tax cuts were enacted, there's been twenty years of supply side economics at work - in fact the rate of inflation has been kept at unnaturally low levels, while productivity increases have resulted in supply side working too well - firms now suffer from commodification eroding profits which is the current impetus for outsourcing - prices fall so fast that they only way they can stay competititive is to cut variable, i.e., labor costs.

The World Bank recently disclosed that wages are rising in other countries, and it's likely that at some point, there will have to be a better balance between production and consumption - the current system that you are defending benefits capital at the expense of labor, and the imbalance is creating it's own set of problems: commodification, social unrest, i.e., anti globalization Muslim fundamentalists, etc.




Amaros -> RE: Who Pays Our Taxes (1/24/2007 8:46:33 AM)

In short, I think the Fed policy of distorting the labor market is about to run out of rope one way or another - it can't remain this one sided indefinitely.




Mercnbeth -> RE: Who Pays Our Taxes (2/12/2007 6:48:48 AM)

Predictable outcome to minimum wage increase:
quote:

New wage boost puts squeeze on teenage workers across Arizona

Employers are cutting back hours, laying off young staffers Source: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0210biz-teenwork0210.html

Fortunately for our politicians, most of the electorate are too ignorant to appreciate basic economics. But with the far sighted vision of 'Mr. Magoo', to placate the masses they pass a increase to minimum wage. The consequence was LESS entry level opportunity for the very same people the increase was meant to help.
 
The argument is that few if any supporting a family have minimum wage positions. However, even if that was true, what about the teen-aged children of the working  poor? They contribute to the family if the only impact is that they have their own spending money.
 
Owners of small businesses, such as fast food, aren't rich corporations hiding profits. The 'mom & pop' businesses are the 'minimum wage' equivalent of individuals. Obviously in the market addressed by this article they can not afford the increase.
 
Good thing for politicians that they've trained the masses to respond like Pavlov's dogs to buzzwords, or labels like Democrat, Republican, conservative, liberal. In the large corporate world, where the lawyers who graduated in the top 1% of the class reside, they laugh and easily outmaneuver their lawyer brothers who graduated in the bottom 1% of their class and became politicians.




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