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NorthernGent -> RE: the shi* is hitting the fan (1/21/2007 9:56:31 AM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
The Somme was the idea of French Commander-in-Chief, Joseph Joffre and not the idea of Haig who sceptical but guilty of accepting it so to say the French reached their objectives (they had the easier task) and the British didn't, is somewhat disingenous because the French plan was seriously flawed, expecting the British infantry to advance an almost impossible 4,000 metres. Haig was guilty of acceptting a French plan that was almost impossible to fullfill. Later in the war when the British worked their own tactics, they were far more successful.
I would also advise you to read the German view. Maybe you would then impress me.
I don't need to read any view. I'm fully aware of what happened at The Somme.
The plan failed because of the following:
1) Only 1 in 3 British shells actually exploded. The rest were duds as they were shabbily constructed. This reduced the impact of the bombardment. On the eve of the bombardment, reconaissance reported that the German barbed wire was unscathed - the bombardment had not done its job - the British ignored this and put it down to pre battle nerves.
2) The Germans were at the top of a hill, the British were at the bottom. The British failed to grasp that the Germans could see right into British trenches from their position. Thus, they saw the build up of men and equipment over a 4-6 month period. The Germans simply reinforced their positions as they knew what was coming from the British. The Germans actually had beds and all sorts under the trenches - they were well dug in an intricate system of trenches which they reinforced during this period.
3) The British laid a series of mines under German trenches and just before the charge detonated them. The problem was, this detonation created huge crators that the Germans used as an advantage point to shoot down at the British - giving them another advantage.
4) This is key factor:
a) The British commanders ordered British soldiers to walk towards the German lines. Running was forbiden because Rawlinson's army was a civilian army and he didn't believe they had the ability to cope with army procedure such as zig zagging etc. Thus, the British bomardment stopped at 7.30am, British soldiers walked out of their trenches, the Germans got themselves into position and slaughtered the advancing, walking British soldiers who had to cover between a mile and a mile and a half uphill. Only a few batallions took their initial objectives but due to heavy casualties and a lack of reinforcements they couldn't hold them and had to retreat - examples are the 1st Manchesters and the 43rd Ulster Division.
b) The French on the otherhand were not so rigid in their thinking. They bombarded the German lines as French soldiers were actually advancing so the Germans did not have time to get into position when the bombardment stopped i.e. the French soldiers were right on top of them and in their trenches before the Germans could do anything. You dould call this a pre-run of German blitzkrieg tactics in WW2 i.e. bombardments and soldiers worked in tandem (in contrast to the British version of bomb, stop bombing, soldiers get out of trenches and advance). The French were actually sat waiting for the British as the plan was to link up and drive on.
5) Haig overruled Rawlinson on many occasions. Haig was average - he was appointed based on his position in society rather than his capabilities. Rawlinson, on the otherhand, was highly skilled. The problem was, the two men didn't get on and Haig put a block on many of Rawlinsons' ideas. In effect, the bones of the plan were Haig's and he was an average soldier.
If I took a few minutes to think about this I could give you some more reasons why the British fucked the whole thing up whereas the French succeeded.
There was a very good documentary on The Somme by the BBC. I actually have it on my PC so if you want to see it mail me your msn or yahoo address and I'll send it to you. It's quality viewing and it's centred around the 1st Manchester Batallion. I think it covers pretty much everything in the above including the spectacular incompetency of British High Command.
In anticipation of the response:
1) The idea of the Somme was a joint idea. The real influence the French had was bringing it forward - the British wanted it to take place in 1917 but they had no choice as the French Army was on the verge of mutiny at Verdun and so they agreed to relieve French lines. However, it could have worked if the British generals had adopted a fluid approach like the French generals instead of being rigid. As stated on this thread, the French took all of their objectives. The French were actually sat waiting for the British as they were supposed to like up and drive on.
2) Lines such as "you're blind because of your hatred of the British establishment" are nonsensical and a waste of energy. What you have before you are facts, stick to the facts. As said, I will send you (or anyone else) the documentary if you're interested. It's well done and worth an hour of anyone's time.
A related point, the French poured their resources into the army. The British poured their resources into the navy. Quality input = quality output so you'll understand why the French were ahead of the British in terms of the numbers of quality soldiers available to them and military strategy.
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