BDSM in literature: Abelard and Heloise (Full Version)

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curiouspet55 -> BDSM in literature: Abelard and Heloise (1/21/2007 7:35:22 PM)

I seriously considered changing my screename on here to Heloise earlier in the evening...curious on opinions of this, so here it is...

Earlier tonight I had to read a large section of "The letters of Abelard and Heloise" for a humanities course I am taking. I was assigned to write an essay on one of several ideas, and the idea I chose was that of Heloise's interpretation of her relationship with Abelard. It was extremely difficult not to entirely give away my own submissive beliefs in my essay - I must say that if one was familiar with D/s my inclinations would be quite obvious.

Anyhow, I titled my essay "Deference and Devotion." I'm not sure if anyone out there (or here, rather) has heard or read these letters, but it became obvious to me that the relationship between Abelard and Heloise was that of a S/m D/s one. Many times, Abelard admitted to beating Heloise, but out of love, and she appreciated the sign of his love. On page 11 Abelard writes "I sometimes struck her, but these blows were prompted by love and tender feeling rather than anger and irritation, and were sweeter than any balm could be."

In return, in the first of her personal letters Heloise openly discloses her submission to Abelard. She writes "The name of wife may seem more sacred or more binding, but sweeter for me will always be the word friend, or if you will permit me, that of concubine or whore. I believed that the more I humbled myself on your account, the more gratitude I should win from you, and also the less damage I should do to the brightness of your reputation." In this, she puts her Lord (she addresses him as her lord in the opening line of her first letter) before herself, and wishes only to please him and best serve his will.

Heloise next writes, a bit further on, "I have finally denied myself every pleasure in obedience to your will, kept nothing for myself except to prove that now, even more, I am yours." This statement here, to me, can in no way disguise or cover up her submission to Abelard.

In effect, the entirety of the letters shows Heloise's devotion to Abelard. Where my conflict comes into play is in his response to her submission. Rather than rejoicing in it, praising it, loving her more for it, and responding in kind, he tries to garner more affection from her without returning any. I want to submit entirely to my Master, but I want his love, his praise, and his devotion in return. I will not put him above Christ, as Heloise does, and I won't follow him blindly, rather I will question him and challenge him in return, as I believe that should be the case in any relationship - partners should attempt to better each other, not just one bettering the other.

Anyhow, after restraining myself so as not to give away to my professor, and possibly to fellow students, that of my own submission, I needed a place to write on my opinions regarding the submission of Heloise in terms of BDSM, not just in terms of Christ and perspectives (that was the concentration in my essay). If anyone has read this and has thought similarly, or has opinions on it, let me know, as I find it fascinating to examine D/s in literature!




dcnovice -> RE: BDSM in literature: Abelard and Heloise (1/21/2007 7:53:37 PM)

Fascinating. I saw their tomb in Paris back in 2001, but I don't know much about them. You've made me want to learn more.




Zsuzsanna -> RE: BDSM in literature: Abelard and Heloise (1/21/2007 9:06:57 PM)

Yes. You have made me definately want to learn more. This was a beautiful post.  Where can I find these letters?




Turingalila -> RE: BDSM in literature: Abelard and Heloise (1/21/2007 9:32:37 PM)

The letters are beautiful - what is interesting, I think, is the fact that one so rarely finds mediaeval women's writing like this (even taking into account the relative rarity of mediaeval women's writing per se). It is relatively common for me to write about their lords in what we would now think of as a submissive manner, but then I suppose that is because they really were - with none of this "your submission is a gift" stuff, either!

Such an attitude by women towards men was the opposite of the initial ideas of romantic love as laid out by the early troubadours, in which the ancestors of today's submissive men and tribute-seeking women can be seen...and it was also seen by the Protestant Church centuries later as deeply heretical if not downright blasphemous. Milton was hauled up for the line in Paradise lost for teh line about Adam and Eve, "He for the Lord only, she for the Lord in him", implying that a woman's access to God could only be mediated through a man. Of course, such mediation was essential to Catholics and Orthodox Christians, but even they baulked at the transposition of such a role to a secular and erotic setting such as in Abelard and Heloise.
Do read the letters if you can get hold of them - they are beautiful - and thanks to the OP for reminding me! And try "The Courtly Love Tradition" by Bernard O'Donoghue, and the Roman de la Rose, and then the Nibelungenlied, followed by Njal's saga...sorry, I've got all over-excited.
By the way, for an example of a very modern Dominant man, try reading the original Malory versions of Lancelot in Mort d'Arthur.




curiouspet55 -> RE: BDSM in literature: Abelard and Heloise (1/21/2007 9:48:46 PM)

Ironically...already read Mort d'arthur..and going to read the others later in the semester, according to the syllabus. If they are all D/s oriented it will be one hell of a long semester trying not to give myself away. Wonder if my professor is into it herself. Hmm...

As for where to find them, a bookstore...We have a book of it, "The letters of Abelard and Heloise" by Penguin Classics.




Noah -> RE: BDSM in literature: Abelard and Heloise (1/21/2007 9:54:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: curiouspet55

I seriously considered changing my screename on here to Heloise earlier in the evening...curious on opinions of this, so here it is...

Earlier tonight I had to read a large section of "The letters of Abelard and Heloise" for a humanities course I am taking. I was assigned to write an essay on one of several ideas, and the idea I chose was that of Heloise's interpretation of her relationship with Abelard. It was extremely difficult not to entirely give away my own submissive beliefs in my essay - I must say that if one was familiar with D/s my inclinations would be quite obvious.


Well I just can't wait for the first knucklehead to post declaring that Heloise couldn't be a real twue submissive because writing letters is like online, and online submission is not real and twue.

These letters are a wonderful depiction of epistolary romance, and yes, in this case, one we would recognize as BDSM.

quote:

Anyhow, I titled my essay "Deference and Devotion." I'm not sure if anyone out there (or here, rather) has heard or read these letters, but it became obvious to me that the relationship between Abelard and Heloise was that of a S/m D/s one. Many times, Abelard admitted to beating Heloise, but out of love, and she appreciated the sign of his love. On page 11 Abelard writes "I sometimes struck her, but these blows were prompted by love and tender feeling rather than anger and irritation, and were sweeter than any balm could be."


Mmhmm.

quote:

In return, in the first of her personal letters Heloise openly discloses her submission to Abelard. She writes "The name of wife may seem more sacred or more binding, but sweeter for me will always be the word friend, or if you will permit me, that of concubine or whore. I believed that the more I humbled myself on your account, the more gratitude I should win from you, and also the less damage I should do to the brightness of your reputation." In this, she puts her Lord (she addresses him as her lord in the opening line of her first letter) before herself, and wishes only to please him and best serve his will.

Heloise next writes, a bit further on, "I have finally denied myself every pleasure in obedience to your will, kept nothing for myself except to prove that now, even more, I am yours." This statement here, to me, can in no way disguise or cover up her submission to Abelard.


Yes.  And doesn't it all illustrate that terms like D/s, BDSM, S&M are just descriptors which we overlay onto our human experience, not the names of ontic categories into which we or our behaviors fit? People submit to one another; people serve one another; people suffer for one another. This we see.

Afterward we can make pigeonholes into which to mentally put aspects of all this behavior, but the pigeonholes (terms and theories) are not the blueprint for WIITWD, they come only after.

Heloise and Abelard, as depicted in the letters, had what they had. We can see it and appreciate it (or not) in terms of our own experience, just as we could if we were from a culture which had never presented us with terms like Dominant and Submissive (in the locally relevant sense) but if we had first hand experience of the phenomena ourselves.
 

quote:

In effect, the entirety of the letters shows Heloise's devotion to Abelard. Where my conflict comes into play is in his response to her submission. Rather than rejoicing in it, praising it, loving her more for it, and responding in kind, he tries to garner more affection from her without returning any. I want to submit entirely to my Master, but I want his love, his praise, and his devotion in return. I will not put him above Christ, as Heloise does, and I won't follow him blindly, rather I will question him and challenge him in return, as I believe that should be the case in any relationship - partners should attempt to better each other, not just one bettering the other.


I can follow you until you say "should".  If two people encounter one another in a way foreign to you and furthermore inappropriate to you, and yet they find what they seek there, in their own terms or in nameless ways, are they wrong?  Wrong because they are not doing what you say people "should" do?

I don't reject this out of hand but I note that you haven't made any sort of case for this edict you hand down (the should statement.)  Why shouldn't they comport themselves in keeping with their own values, ideas, desires and beliefs?

The other word I'm having trouble with in your account is "entirely". You say: " I want to submit entirely to my Master, but ..." and the but loom large (not that I can't appreciate a large, looming butt, eh, Ron?), since you go on to list a range of exceptions to the entirety of the submission you desire to offer.

It is fine of you to have your own standards, limits, and boundaries. I would say it is probably healthy. But in their presence do you really feel entitled to use the word "entirely" to describe the submission you want to offer?

quote:

Anyhow, after restraining myself...


Well I hope it was auto-erotic for you.

quote:

... so as not to give away to my professor, and possibly to fellow students, that of my own submission, I needed a place to write on my opinions regarding the submission of Heloise in terms of BDSM, not just in terms of Christ and perspectives (that was the concentration in my essay). If anyone has read this and has thought similarly, or has opinions on it, let me know, as I find it fascinating to examine D/s in literature!


Thank you for bringing this here and for sharing those delicious snippets. I hope your post inspires more people to explore the literature of epistolary romance and puts one more nail in the coffin of the preposterous claim that there can be no genuine relationship, including no genuine submissionn or mastery, except between people who stand in the same room.

I'd be very pleased to read your paper if it would please you to share it.




curiouspet55 -> RE: BDSM in literature: Abelard and Heloise (1/21/2007 10:16:05 PM)

I do stand corrected...I must admit to not reading over what I wrote, and the word 'should' needs a qualifying 'for me'. As for the submitting entirely...entirely is a relative word. The but is to announce what I would need before trusting enough to surrender entirely...For me, the things all go hand in hand. And submitting entirely, in my opinion, doesn't mean going over ones religious beliefs or anything of that nature, only that one is surrendering control entirely. Don't know if I'm making much sense, but it makes sense in my head so hopefully I am.

As for my paper, I'll message it to you, rather than post it on here.




Siona -> RE: BDSM in literature: Abelard and Heloise (1/21/2007 11:57:48 PM)

I'd like to read it also,please, if you wouldn't mind?




Celeste43 -> RE: BDSM in literature: Abelard and Heloise (1/22/2007 5:03:25 AM)

Of course, we're also ignoring the fact that she was extremely young and he was hired to teach her. By our standards she was some five years shy of the age of consent. More Lolita than Romeo and Juliet wherein both protagonists are the same age approximately.




MistressYlwa -> RE: BDSM in literature: Abelard and Heloise (1/22/2007 11:59:47 AM)

I would like to read your paper, as well. Please post it here.
 
Mistress Alicia




curiouspet55 -> RE: BDSM in literature: Abelard and Heloise (1/22/2007 12:16:40 PM)

After a few requests, I'll post my paper on here. Don't judge it too harshly, I beg of you :). But opinions and such are welcome.

Deference and Devotion

          “To her lord, or rather father; to her husband, or rather brother; from his handmaid, or rather daughter; from his wife, or rather sister; to Abelard, from Heloise,” Heloise writes on page 46 of The Letters of Abelard and Heloise. With these words, Heloise states her view of her relationship with Abelard. To her, Abelard represents all figures of authority. He is her authority – the one to be obeyed, to be pleased, to devote one’s self to. To him, she is his handmaid, his subservient wife. It is her duty to provide him with pleasure, with love, with faith, with devotion, and with unfailing trust and loyalty. It is her duty to be loyal to her husband and savior, Abelard, above all others, including Christ. Heloise viewed her relationship with Abelard as one of deference and devotion, a lifestyle which she thought would not only further Abelard’s reputation as philosopher and theologian but also better display and prove her love for him.
          In her response to Abelard’s Historia Calamitatum, Heloise tries to place herself in a position of unfailing love and devotion. Abelard mentions that his problems will make your seem insignificant, and Heloise quickly agrees that the struggles and misfortunes befalling her beloved are far more severe than her own and that of her companions. Heloise responds with grief in Abelard’s despair, seemingly hoping to comfort him and provide him with a place of trust and faith. From the beginning of their correspondence, Heloise is showing a devotion to Abelard that overtakes all other loyalties she may have once had (such as loyalties to her uncle or to Christ).
          Heloise first illustrates her submission to Abelard on page 50, writing “The name of wife may seem more sacred or more binding, but sweeter for me will always be the word friend, or, if you will permit me, that of concubine or whore. I believed that the more I humbled myself on your account, the more gratitude I should win from you, and also the less damage I should do to the brightness of your reputation.”  In these words, Heloise admits that with her submission and loyalty she is trying to spare Abelard the pain of a damaged reputation, but also she is admitting that she strives to receive praise and recognition of loyalty from him in response to her submission (or as some would phrase it, her sacrifice). Heloise goes so far as to devote her life to Abelard’s pleasure, saying on page 54 “I have finally denied myself every pleasure in obedience to your will, kept nothing for myself except to prove that now, even more, I am yours.” Heloise yearns for Abelard’s praise, his love – and she readily admits she would sacrifice anything to receive them.
          Abelard responds in a manner quite apart from what the common reader would expect – after such a letter of devotion, one would think that praise or comfort would be sent back, but in this case no such thing happens. Abelard responds to Heloise with recommendations on prayer, and a brief word on how in the bible, Ecclesiastics specifically, it is written that “a good wife makes a happy husband.” This brief comment could be taken as praise, in the sense that Abelard is hinting that he believes Heloise is being a good wife in her devotion to him, and therefore he is happy in being her husband. This bit of concealed praise more than likely is why Heloise continues in her devotion to Abelard.
          In her next letter, Heloise first refers to herself as inferior to Abelard. This is the first time Heloise openly confesses her belief that she is inferior to her husband and therefore should be submissive to him. On page 63, Heloise states “I am surprised….you have thought fit to put my name before yours…Surely the right and proper order is for those who write to their superiors of equals to put their names before their own, but in letters to inferiors, precedence in order of address follows precedence in rank.”
          Heloise is convinced that her devotion and submission to Abelard is the best choice for the both of them, but in reality this isn’t quite true. While she asks Abelard not to praise her, he is right in saying “be careful, I beg you, not to seek praise when you appear to shun it, and not to reject with your lips what you desire in your heart.” This is in fact what Heloise is doing, obvious in how she changes from seeking praise to rejecting it after one reproachful letter from Abelard. In seeking no praise she is really trying, yet again, to please him.
Heloise views Abelard as her Lord and Master above all others, and tries in vain to please him. On page 71, Heloise says “I confess my weakness, I do not wish to fight in hope of victory, lest the day comes when I lose the battle. What need is there to forsake what is certain and pursue uncertainty?” In these words, one senses that perhaps Heloise isn’t trying to please Abelard out of love, but is submissive to him instead of Christ because it is safer to follow Abelard. With Abelard, she is safe because she has never truly had his love so she cannot win it, and if she wins his approval it is a bonus. There is no uncertainty because she has nothing to lose. With Christ, she once had his love and has now lost it. Rather than attempting to win back the love of God and risking failure and damnation, she believes that by following Abelard she can avoid the risk.
           Abelard, on the other hand, recognizes that only in devotion to God can one be safe from damnation. In the fifth personal letter, from Abelard to Heloise, Abelard tries to convince Heloise that God was just in putting them in their current situation. They were wrong to live in sin and think to fix it, and they were wrong to attempt to hide their ‘fixing’ in an area of Christ – they used God as a deception, hiding something that was not a mistake. In this sense, Abelard believes it was just for God to commit them both to lives of servitude to the Lord. Abelard has realized his calling and devotes his time to the Lord, while Heloise has convinced herself to follows Abelard as her Lord. Heloise doesn’t realize that by trusting completely in Abelard, she is in fact guaranteeing herself a life without him, for if he is devoted to Christ he shall avoid damnation, while since she is devoted to Abelard she is bound for the fires of hell.
            Abelard knows that Heloise must believe and trust in God, and tries his hardest to appeal to her senses. He goes so far as to state on page 79 that “If you are anxious to please me in everything, as you claim…you must rid yourself of it. If it persists you can neither please me nor attain bliss with me.” Heloise sees her relationship with Abelard as one of faith, of devotion and submission. She believes that by trusting in Abelard, she can help him in his scholarly pursuits, avoid damaging his reputation, and show her love for him. What Heloise fails to realize is that the only way she can truly please Abelard is by trusting in God, because he has realized that their love for one another should never overtake their love for God.




Noah -> RE: BDSM in literature: Abelard and Heloise (1/22/2007 12:47:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: curiouspet55

I do stand corrected...I must admit to not reading over what I wrote, and the word 'should' needs a qualifying 'for me'. As for the submitting entirely...entirely is a relative word. The but is to announce what I would need before trusting enough to surrender entirely...For me, the things all go hand in hand. And submitting entirely, in my opinion, doesn't mean going over ones religious beliefs or anything of that nature, only that one is surrendering control entirely. Don't know if I'm making much sense, but it makes sense in my head so hopefully I am.

As for my paper, I'll message it to you, rather than post it on here.


Hi curious.

The point of that part of my response to you was that "entirely" is not a relative term.  "Deeply" is relative. "Thoroughly" is relative. English offers us lots of synonyms and near synonyms which might have been chosen which do not invoke entire-ness, but you selected (and you can obviously write, and think) an absolute rather than a relative term.

Now you have annouced that by entirely you meant ... not entirely... which is in keeping with what else originally went along with the word entirely in your post. So I think I get you--though we may have to shake hands on our little disagreement about whether entirely should really be understood to mean not entirely. Insert winky emoticon here.

I'm glad we're disagreeing about the selection of a word (a piffle, once we've talked around it to understanding, as we have.) Had you been intending to describe your submission in absolute terms, then, well, I mean what sad mess that usually seems to turn into, right?

Maybe for your next assignment you can come up with a little compendium for us of publically documented epistolary romances, fictional and non. I think a little exploration there could make a kick-ass thesis topic for somebody or other.

Thank you for sharing your paper.




curiouspet55 -> RE: BDSM in literature: Abelard and Heloise (1/22/2007 1:25:16 PM)

I thought about that earlier, actually - how interesting it would be to study medieval and renaissance literature and compare the D/s elements and definitions of romance in them to modern romance novels and literature. It would be a great thesis...but unfortunately, one that won't work for me since I need to do my thesis in my political science concentration. Though that isn't really a pity, since I already have an idea for my thesis and love it. I must admit though that if I had the chance and the time it would really fascinating to look at with more detail.




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