Czech US base upsets Russia.

Czech US base upsets Russia. (Full Version)

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meatcleaver -> Czech US base upsets Russia. (1/21/2007 11:21:32 PM)
The Czechs have agreed to host a US military site that has alarmed Russia who are reconsidering their own military stance. http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,1995740,00.html Isn't it about time the EU got its own defence policy rather than allowing one government divide the whole continent for someone elses foreign policy? We had this with Blair and Iraq and now we have the Czech Republic precipitating tension on the continent. From what I have read son of star wars has no relevance to European defence so why are EU countries not putting pressure on the Czechs to say no to the US?

cyberdude611 -> RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. (1/21/2007 11:37:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver The Czechs have agreed to host a US military site that has alarmed Russia who are reconsidering their own military stance. http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,1995740,00.html Isn't it about time the EU got its own defence policy rather than allowing one government divide the whole continent for someone elses foreign policy? We had this with Blair and Iraq and now we have the Czech Republic precipitating tension on the continent. From what I have read son of star wars has no relevance to European defence so why are EU countries not putting pressure on the Czechs to say no to the US? Simple...NATO. We are all in it together. The Czechs are semi-members of NATO. And even if the US was not involved, there would still be tensions between Europe and Russia. The EU believes that Putin is rolling back democratic reforms in Russia. And EU members have been very, very vocal about it. In fact, the EU has been critical that the US hasn't done enough to challange Russia on that issue. Putin's popularity in Europe is extremely low. They all think he is a rising dictator. And they blame him for rigging the election in Ukraine. Without NATO, Europe's influence on the world stage would be weakened. This is why France is the only country pushing for a Europe-only military. Germany and Luxembourg were also pushing for it, but that was before the people in those countries and in Denmark voted down the EU constitution.

meatcleaver -> RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. (1/22/2007 12:13:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cyberdude611 Simple...NATO. We are all in it together. The Czechs are semi-members of NATO. And even if the US was not involved, there would still be tensions between Europe and Russia. The EU believes that Putin is rolling back democratic reforms in Russia. And EU members have been very, very vocal about it. In fact, the EU has been critical that the US hasn't done enough to challange Russia on that issue. Putin's popularity in Europe is extremely low. They all think he is a rising dictator. And they blame him for rigging the election in Ukraine. Without NATO, Europe's influence on the world stage would be weakened. This is why France is the only country pushing for a Europe-only military. Germany and Luxembourg were also pushing for it, but that was before the people in those countries and in Denmark voted down the EU constitution. Military strength is not a measure of anything other than military strength and only gives influence through threats. For meaningful influence the economy is much more important. The US can project itself militarily around the world but it can't make anyone buy its products. The EU needs to consider its own defence and its own economy because it is the strength of its markets that will give it influence, not the military, US or otherwise. The last thing Europe needs to is buy into US paranoia, we had enough of that in the cold war. While Russia has someway to go to be a modern democracy, it is clear it would rather wield influence through its energy than its military at the moment, which is a completely rational policy. The EU just has to not let itself become over dependent on Russian enrgy. The military base is creating tension were there isn't any and is not a positive move and something other NATO countries should make clear.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. (1/22/2007 5:48:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Military strength is not a measure of anything other than military strength and only gives influence through threats. For meaningful influence the economy is much more important. The US can project itself militarily around the world but it can't make anyone buy its products. The EU needs to consider its own defence and its own economy because it is the strength of its markets that will give it influence, not the military, US or otherwise. The last thing Europe needs to is buy into US paranoia, we had enough of that in the cold war. While Russia has someway to go to be a modern democracy, it is clear it would rather wield influence through its energy than its military at the moment, which is a completely rational policy. The EU just has to not let itself become over dependent on Russian enrgy. Military strength is not a measure of anything other than military strength and only gives influence through threats. Military strength (the use of force) is the basis of all civilization, all economic activity and is the bedrock on which all other forms of human interaction is based. *** While Russia has someway to go to be a modern democracy, it is clear it would rather wield influence through its energy than its military at the moment, which is a completely rational policy. So ... 1. Russia is what you think of, when you think of an emerging "modern democracy"? 2. "Wielding power" through the control of energy supplies is cheaper than outright military force, but is force nonetheless. 3. What is a "rational policy"? And, as an aside, why is it a "rational policy" when Russia wants to effect political control and domination through the control of energy resources, while any hint of the US attempt to prevent the same sort of political control and domination is "imperalistic", evil, and "bad"? I'm confused. FirmKY

meatcleaver -> RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. (1/22/2007 7:07:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Military strength is not a measure of anything other than military strength and only gives influence through threats. Military strength (the use of force) is the basis of all civilization, all economic activity and is the bedrock on which all other forms of human interaction is based. I remember listening to an interview of a leading American businessman on the BBC world service (I think he was the leader of the American equivalent of the British Conferation of British Indiustry) who said many American businessmen were concerned that people around the world were starting to associate an aggressive American military stance with American products, something that hasn't happened before and something America should be concerned about and that there is evidence of people turning away from American products for no other reason than they are American. He said if America loses markets for that reason, it will be very hard to win them back. quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY While Russia has someway to go to be a modern democracy, it is clear it would rather wield influence through its energy than its military at the moment, which is a completely rational policy. So ... 1. Russia is what you think of, when you think of an emerging "modern democracy"? 2. "Wielding power" through the control of energy supplies is cheaper than outright military force, but is force nonetheless. 3. What is a "rational policy"? And, as an aside, why is it a "rational policy" when Russia wants to effect political control and domination through the control of energy resources, while any hint of the US attempt to prevent the same sort of political control and domination is "imperalistic", evil, and "bad"? While invading Iraq for its oil might well be rational to you and me on one level, it hardly puts modern democracy in a good light and it isn't how modern democracies like to see themselves. However, they rarely look in the mirror and see themselves for what they are and have the gall to criticize a country like Russia using its own energy for political influence, while America sends aircraft carriers half way around the world to project its influence. I think I would rather have the danger of having an oil and gas pipeline being shut down. It is something one can have contingency plans for, rather than have a nuclear armed fleet making threats and claiming someone elses oil is theirs.

meatcleaver -> RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. (1/22/2007 7:23:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY And, as an aside, why is it a "rational policy" when Russia wants to effect political control and domination through the control of energy resources, while any hint of the US attempt to prevent the same sort of political control and domination is "imperalistic", evil, and "bad"? Just to emphasize FirmhandKY, the Russians are using their own energy for their own self interest. The US in the middle east are using someone elses energy for US self interest. I don't think anyone criticized the US for refusing to sell oil to Japan pre-WWII or refusing to sell their oil at any other time.

Sinergy -> RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. (1/22/2007 7:46:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cyberdude611 In fact, the EU has been critical that the US hasn't done enough to challange Russia on that issue. Putin's popularity in Europe is extremely low. They all think he is a rising dictator. On behalf of my fellow Americans, I would like to take the opportunity to apologize for not doing more to challenge Putin's attempts to become a rising dictator. In our defense, I would like to point out that we are having enough trouble dealing with our own rising dictator. Just me, could be wrong, etc. Sinergy

FirmhandKY -> RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. (1/22/2007 9:32:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY And, as an aside, why is it a "rational policy" when Russia wants to effect political control and domination through the control of energy resources, while any hint of the US attempt to prevent the same sort of political control and domination is "imperalistic", evil, and "bad"? Just to emphasize FirmhandKY, the Russians are using their own energy for their own self interest. The US in the middle east are using someone elses energy for US self interest. I don't think anyone criticized the US for refusing to sell oil to Japan pre-WWII or refusing to sell their oil at any other time. I'm not sure you've defined for me what you consider a "rational policy", and this is an issue I believe is important to understand. I suspect, however, that if the US attempts to use "food diplomacy" i.e. controlling the sale of our food products to countries in a restrictive manner in order to effect political policies, you would be one of the first to call it "immoral and imperialistic", wouldn't you? And lets' talk a bit of "Russia's oil". What would be the moral position of Russia if it's energy supplies were only available on the world market because they made agreements with Western (American) oil companies to develop the oil-fields, but once the Western oil companies had invested billions in that development, Russia then blackmails them to take control of the resources that were developed with others' money? Would you accept this as a "rational" policy? FirmKY

caitlyn -> RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. (1/22/2007 10:00:39 AM)
Don't the Czech's have the right to invite anyone in, that they choose? Isn't it their country? If they want us, don't we have the right to go anywhere we want?

luckydog1 -> RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. (1/22/2007 10:27:10 AM)
Remember that the west of Europe was happy giving Czechoslovakia to the USSR, several posters have defended the right of the USSR to take buffer states, in a few recent threads. Perhaps the Czechs do not want to be sacrificed by the west again. Perhaps they dream of being more than a buffer for France. To answer the question in the first post"so why are EU countries not putting pressure on the Czechs to say no to the US? ", because most Europeons, do not agree with you meat. For over 50 years they have voted against you and what you are advocating. Most people in Europe realise that having US bases are a benefit, that it stabilises the region. I base this on the actuall voting behavior of Western Europe.

Dtesmoac -> RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. (1/22/2007 11:17:25 AM)
Firm suspect, however, that if the US attempts to use "food diplomacy" i.e. controlling the sale of our food products to countries in a restrictive manner in order to effect political policies, you would be one of the first to call it "immoral and imperialistic", wouldn't you? Power from corn ................ 50% increase in cost of mexico staple food...............any connection? Meat the EU has no intention, wish or benefit in bcomming a military superpower. The level of support that is required to be given to US policy is actually quite minimal in return for having American troops in situations where any attack on a European Country automatically calls in a large military force........that you have not had to invest in. EU gets equiv of 5% extra GDP on military without actually spending it. It can then invest in Medical care and soft security via overseas investment...... :) shhh just don't tell the US citizens............... :) The distance whilst at the same time intgration of the EU and USA works well in both directions. The EU should perhaps produce a greater integrated reaction force with sufficient capability to project major force anywhere globally, (France Germany & UK could achieve this at minimal cost) but that is not the same as replacing NATO and US domenance. The loss of markets to the US due to their policies is occuring. Bush will not last for ever. When China becomes a clear threat to Asia and there is a striaght choice US or China on world view the EU will tip in US favour..................but only after appearing even handed.

cyberdude611 -> RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. (1/22/2007 12:11:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: cyberdude611 Simple...NATO. We are all in it together. The Czechs are semi-members of NATO. And even if the US was not involved, there would still be tensions between Europe and Russia. The EU believes that Putin is rolling back democratic reforms in Russia. And EU members have been very, very vocal about it. In fact, the EU has been critical that the US hasn't done enough to challange Russia on that issue. Putin's popularity in Europe is extremely low. They all think he is a rising dictator. And they blame him for rigging the election in Ukraine. Without NATO, Europe's influence on the world stage would be weakened. This is why France is the only country pushing for a Europe-only military. Germany and Luxembourg were also pushing for it, but that was before the people in those countries and in Denmark voted down the EU constitution. Military strength is not a measure of anything other than military strength and only gives influence through threats. For meaningful influence the economy is much more important. The US can project itself militarily around the world but it can't make anyone buy its products. The EU needs to consider its own defence and its own economy because it is the strength of its markets that will give it influence, not the military, US or otherwise. The last thing Europe needs to is buy into US paranoia, we had enough of that in the cold war. While Russia has someway to go to be a modern democracy, it is clear it would rather wield influence through its energy than its military at the moment, which is a completely rational policy. The EU just has to not let itself become over dependent on Russian enrgy. The military base is creating tension were there isn't any and is not a positive move and something other NATO countries should make clear. I disagree with you. If you have watched Russia over the past few years under Putin's term, they have increased their military expenses and have been conducting more and more military exercises. But back to Europe, part of the reason they want the US is because we are a super power outside the region. During WW2, there was no obligation for us to fight Nazi Germany. In fact, in the US, popular opinion was against the war by a vast majority...something like 75% opposed the war. And the reason for this was because we were still dealing with the depression. The last thing people wanted to do was get involved in a war. Then Pearl Harbor occured and opinion changed overnight and we declared clared war on the Axis. There was also the little issue of the French making an alliance with Poland that if the Nazis invade, France will attack Germany. Well, Hitler invaded Poland and France stood still and watched. Now in 1949, NATO was formed. And what this established is a military aliance that an attack on one member is an attack on all members. So if another war breaks out in Europe, the whole alliance must go to war. And we saw this during the Kosovo war. Europeans are convinced this type of alliance will prevent world war 3. Russia isnt going to attack Europe. And neither will someone like Iran or Syria. Simply because none of those countries can take on all the NATO nations at once and still survive to see the sun rise the next day. There have been some suggestions of changing some of NATOs policies and such to adapt to the post-Soviet era, but very few people in Europe support abandoning the treaty. Those that do are usually in the radical wings. As for the Czechs, they are allies. And Eastern Europe has become a lot more westernized since the fall of the Soviet Union. You go to Prague, Budapest, or Bratislava and those cities are booming. Those places have attracted a lot of industry, business, and tourism. A lot of money is pouring in there, And this westernization is continuing to creep slowly eastward. Right now it is begun to get into Ukraine. In fact if you go to Ukraine, the differences between the western part of the country and the eastern part is striking. And right now that is where a lot of tension is building between the west and the Kremlin. Once these governments get a taste of that money, capitalism, and self rule, they sure dont want to go back to communism. So they want all the protection they can get.

meatcleaver -> RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. (1/22/2007 12:21:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn Don't the Czech's have the right to invite anyone in, that they choose? Isn't it their country? If they want us, don't we have the right to go anywhere we want? Czech has the right to do what it wants but its neighbours have the right not to like their decisions that raise the tensions in the locality. If they want to be part of the EU and the EU had a common defence policy it would eliminate tensions created by countries like Britain who constantly undermine unity in the EU by favouring US policies. Actually I think countries like Britain ought to decide if they are part of Europe or the 51st state.

meatcleaver -> RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. (1/22/2007 12:29:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 because most Europeons, do not agree with you meat. For over 50 years they have voted against you and what you are advocating. Most people in Europe realise that having US bases are a benefit, that it stabilises the region. I base this on the actuall voting behavior of Western Europe. I wouldn't count on that. Even countries whose governments are pro-American, they have large section of their population that want to see Europe succeeed and feel it can't while dependent on the US. France and Spain would prefer a EU force as would Germany which is now slowly shedding its post war reluctance to exert a presence equivalent to its economic power. There are large sections of Italy that would follow a decisive lead by the Franco-German axis. The key in Europe is the France and Germany because Britain has adicated its role in Europe in preference of being the US poodle.

meatcleaver -> RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. (1/22/2007 12:39:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cyberdude611 I disagree with you. If you have watched Russia over the past few years under Putin's term, they have increased their military expenses and have been conducting more and more military exercises. But back to Europe, part of the reason they want the US is because we are a super power outside the region. During WW2, there was no obligation for us to fight Nazi Germany. In fact, in the US, popular opinion was against the war by a vast majority...something like 75% opposed the war. And the reason for this was because we were still dealing with the depression. The last thing people wanted to do was get involved in a war. Then Pearl Harbor occured and opinion changed overnight and we declared clared war on the Axis. There was also the little issue of the French making an alliance with Poland that if the Nazis invade, France will attack Germany. Well, Hitler invaded Poland and France stood still and watched. Now in 1949, NATO was formed. And what this established is a military aliance that an attack on one member is an attack on all members. So if another war breaks out in Europe, the whole alliance must go to war. And we saw this during the Kosovo war. Europeans are convinced this type of alliance will prevent world war 3. Russia isnt going to attack Europe. And neither will someone like Iran or Syria. Simply because none of those countries can take on all the NATO nations at once and still survive to see the sun rise the next day. There have been some suggestions of changing some of NATOs policies and such to adapt to the post-Soviet era, but very few people in Europe support abandoning the treaty. Those that do are usually in the radical wings. As for the Czechs, they are allies. And Eastern Europe has become a lot more westernized since the fall of the Soviet Union. You go to Prague, Budapest, or Bratislava and those cities are booming. Those places have attracted a lot of industry, business, and tourism. A lot of money is pouring in there, And this westernization is continuing to creep slowly eastward. Right now it is begun to get into Ukraine. In fact if you go to Ukraine, the differences between the western part of the country and the eastern part is striking. And right now that is where a lot of tension is building between the west and the Kremlin. Once these governments get a taste of that money, capitalism, and self rule, they sure dont want to go back to communism. So they want all the protection they can get. Several of your compatriots have dispelled the WWII myth you slavishly recite. Russia is not the USSR and it is not surprising it has increased its military spending, after the collapse of its economy much of its military hardware was left to rot and Russia didn't have the resources to renew it. Russia's ambitions are clear, to achieve an economy to give it and equal footing with the US and the EU. There is nothing irrational about that ambition and to succeed in that ambition many Russians realise they have to have a more western style economy and government. It wasn't long ago Russia was on its knees with the promises of western help a hollow ring, it is hardly surprising it is more forceful in wanting to depend on itself. East Europe is catching up to west Europe because of the EU which is why several of Czechs neighbours are unhappy with the rise in tension their decision has made.

meatcleaver -> RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. (1/22/2007 12:43:04 PM)
quote: Meat the EU has no intention, wish or benefit in bcomming a military superpower. The level of support that is required to be given to US policy is actually quite minimal in return for having American troops in situations where any attack on a European Country automatically calls in a large military force........that you have not had to invest in. EU gets equiv of 5% extra GDP on military without actually spending it. It can then invest in Medical care and soft security via overseas investment...... :) shhh just don't tell the US citizens............... :) The distance whilst at the same time intgration of the EU and USA works well in both directions. The EU should perhaps produce a greater integrated reaction force with sufficient capability to project major force anywhere globally, (France Germany & UK could achieve this at minimal cost) but that is not the same as replacing NATO and US domenance. The loss of markets to the US due to their policies is occuring. Bush will not last for ever. When China becomes a clear threat to Asia and there is a striaght choice US or China on world view the EU will tip in US favour..................but only after appearing even handed. True. In a way I suppose Europe is smart by taking the US for a ride and letting it get on with being a superpower while Europe gives its own citizens healthcare and the US makes its poor do without. In that sort of light, I guess we are the smart ones.

ToGiveDivine -> RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. (1/22/2007 12:57:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Remember that the west of Europe was happy giving Czechoslovakia to the USSR, several posters have defended the right of the USSR to take buffer states, in a few recent threads. Perhaps the Czechs do not want to be sacrificed by the west again. Perhaps they dream of being more than a buffer for France. To answer the question in the first post"so why are EU countries not putting pressure on the Czechs to say no to the US? ", because most Europeons, do not agree with you meat. For over 50 years they have voted against you and what you are advocating. Most people in Europe realise that having US bases are a benefit, that it stabilises the region. I base this on the actuall voting behavior of Western Europe. I have to agree in the sense that, while politically and militarily, the U.S. doesn't have a great track record for the last 50 years. If the shit ever hits the fan in Europe, the Europeans would be very happy to have Americans dying beside them to protect their country from some hitler-wannabe.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. (1/22/2007 1:02:10 PM)
ahhh, just what the world needs, another Franco-German-Italian axis. [:)] German economic muscle, French leadership. Just like French leadership in African, no doubt. Rwanda anyone? Not to mention the almost innate anti-semitism of French society. Yup, I can see a real "new world order" coming out of all of those things. Possible results: 1. The crushing of dissent in most of the other European powers (Chiracs's "They should know their place"), 2. Israel thrown to the mercies of the Arabs, 3. Africa a new colonial empire, 4. The US out of Europe (Bosnia in flames, the Russian bear on the march), 5. A new Jewish pogram. And those are my "best case" scenarios. May you live in interesting times. [:D] FirmKY

cyberdude611 -> RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. (1/22/2007 1:14:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 because most Europeons, do not agree with you meat. For over 50 years they have voted against you and what you are advocating. Most people in Europe realise that having US bases are a benefit, that it stabilises the region. I base this on the actuall voting behavior of Western Europe. I wouldn't count on that. Even countries whose governments are pro-American, they have large section of their population that want to see Europe succeeed and feel it can't while dependent on the US. France and Spain would prefer a EU force as would Germany which is now slowly shedding its post war reluctance to exert a presence equivalent to its economic power. There are large sections of Italy that would follow a decisive lead by the Franco-German axis. The key in Europe is the France and Germany because Britain has adicated its role in Europe in preference of being the US poodle. Europe will always be dependant on the US. Thats never going to change. In fact there are some economic experts in Europe who are growing very concerned that the Euro will collapse in as little as 20 years since there is nothing really backing it up. There is also serious problems developming with the healthcare systems. They were good at first, but they dont seem to be working real well with expanding populations with a high unemployment. Someone I know from Germany said that their mother had to wait over a month for a heart bypass. In the United States, they can do that operation in a matter of hours. The education systems are also having problems. Even though higher education is free over there, many are still paying money to come to American universities. Europe also will be putting itself out on a limb if it trys to get into economic competition with the US. It will not serve their interest to break away from the US. Doing that will cause a split in the western bloc. And that would make Russia and China very happy governments. I know there is some anti-Americanism in Europe. But those people represent a very small, but vocal portion of the population. And Americans are welcome in Europe. The French hate the US government, but they love Americans that come to Paris to spend money. Europe also understands that the US has term limits for its presidency and that Bush is not only a lame-duck, but will be gone in 2 years.

cyberdude611 -> RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. (1/22/2007 1:24:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: Meat the EU has no intention, wish or benefit in bcomming a military superpower. The level of support that is required to be given to US policy is actually quite minimal in return for having American troops in situations where any attack on a European Country automatically calls in a large military force........that you have not had to invest in. EU gets equiv of 5% extra GDP on military without actually spending it. It can then invest in Medical care and soft security via overseas investment...... :) shhh just don't tell the US citizens............... :) The distance whilst at the same time intgration of the EU and USA works well in both directions. The EU should perhaps produce a greater integrated reaction force with sufficient capability to project major force anywhere globally, (France Germany & UK could achieve this at minimal cost) but that is not the same as replacing NATO and US domenance. The loss of markets to the US due to their policies is occuring. Bush will not last for ever. When China becomes a clear threat to Asia and there is a striaght choice US or China on world view the EU will tip in US favour..................but only after appearing even handed. True. In a way I suppose Europe is smart by taking the US for a ride and letting it get on with being a superpower while Europe gives its own citizens healthcare and the US makes its poor do without. In that sort of light, I guess we are the smart ones. Like I said, you might as well be without healthcare if it takes months to do life-saving surgery. This is probably why more and more Europeans are buying their own health insurance and going to private doctors. The system cant deal with the immigration explosion.

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