RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (Full Version)

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seeksfemslave -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/25/2007 3:03:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL LadyEllen
I understood NG to have said that he looks forward to the end of organised religion having any influence over our national life in the sense that Christianity does now by way of its incorporation into the state. This understanding being correct, I agree.


Looks forward can be interpreted two ways.
(1) what <he who shall be nameless didnt say,> he wants to see the end of organised religion. 
(2) what he did say, that in 200 years it will be finished.

Since the trends are quite the opposite my response seems apposite to me  NO ?



dcnovice -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/25/2007 6:52:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wantachance
God is love, he doesnt discriminate against, color, religion, or sexual orentation, therefore love is color and gender blind.  A gay/lesbian couple can love children and raise them to be upstading citizens just as well as any man/woman couple can, it is the attitude a family has, not what the sexual orentation the parents have.  Time for the Pope to begin reading the bible and understanding how God teaches a little better, not with bigotry, but with LOVE.


I ask you to consider the origins of the word sodomy.


And I ask you to (re)read Genesis 19:1-11 and realize that the story is about hospitality and gang rape. It has NOTHING to do with loving, consensual relationships between people of the same sex.

I'd also encourage you to reflect on Ezekiel 16:49, which specifically identifies the sin of Sodom (and it's not what you'd think): "Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy."



Real0ne -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/25/2007 6:57:17 PM)

Let each organization do what they want.

adopt kids from gay group them.

whats wrong that?

i think the one shoe fits all is crap.



trannysub007 -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/25/2007 11:18:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aviinterra
Please do not hate me for saying this but...well...I have to ask- WHY do 2 gay men want to adopt? I am yet to see a man that is 'maternal'. I think I can understand 2 lesbians as it might be the maternal instincts all women have, but still, if they are attracted to the same sex, by natural definition, that excludes them from ever having children- hence, would not nature itself supress the want for an unmentionable? Gay people are healthy and capable of having their own on the whole, why should their argument suddenly be as strong as a woman's who lost her plumbing to cancer? Just because they do not feel like committing the act in the way and for the very purpose it even exists? How are two gay men going to explain to a girl what she is going through when she gets her period? Or a boy who will think maybe there is something wrong with him when he gets aroused by a woman and not a man? How are these unmentionables ever going to learn how interact with hetero men and women if they are left without a guiding figure for half the world's population? I think this is what the Church and some other groups are trying to say, even if it is coming out incorrectly and tinted with hate- and I have to agree with them somewhat. Go have hetero sex and have an unmentionable if you want one that badly- there are plenty of willing 'partners', but if you can't stomach even that, how are you going to deal with a lifetime of issues that come after an adoption? 

   Not all women want to be mothers; not all women are maternal. And, believe it or not, some men actually make decent fathers.  Some men play a big role in their children's upbringing and many are not Catholic. A gay man, while he might not be 'maternal' could very well be nuturing, loving, kind, etc. And just as a boy growing up in a strong family, with a mother and father who are good parents could be gay, a boy growing up with same-sex parents - men or women - could be straight. It's really not as complicated as you seem to think it is.



NorthernGent -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/26/2007 12:31:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Let each organization do what they want.

adopt kids from gay group them.

whats wrong that?

i think the one shoe fits all is crap.



Real0ne,

For me, the issue isn't independent choice. The problem is these people have been backed by the Church of England - so, in other words, we have our churches all parroting discrimination. They enjoy a lofty position in our society. If they can't show the charity and fairness they claim to be swimming in then I don't think they deserve the position they occupy. In sum, such discrimination belongs in the middle ages and if they're unable to take a step forward then they should be consigned to the middle ages.



meatcleaver -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/26/2007 1:47:05 AM)

Religions are not about equality or fairness in temporal life but about saving souls, their allegiance is to a higher authority than the state. OK some of us might think it is based on superstition but when push comes to shove, most people say they believe in one religion or another and that faith should come before allegiance to the state.

If you believe in a truth, the inevitable result will be discrimination.



rose958red -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/26/2007 2:09:23 AM)

hello



sleazy -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/26/2007 5:19:42 AM)

Dcnovice, My point regarding the origins of sodomy was that I personally regard destroying entire cities as a little harsh, rather than loving. Surely a damn good spanking or perhaps a spell of drought would have been enough. I was not refering at all to consent, but simply that I do not feel the commonly accepted christian god as being particularly loving. I cant quote the passage, but I seem to remember a small bunch of children being ripped to shreds by bears for making fun of a bald man, to me these are not acts of love, but pure vindictiveness.



But on the subject of consent..........
I do not regard handing over my virgin daughters to a baying mob as a loving act, nor would I offer much repsect for a diety that thought it so. I also on a quick reading did notice the daughters consent to this possibility at all. Your second passage actually makes me stand by this even more, not being charitable earns a smoting, wheras being charitable by offering virgin children to a mob is considered righteous!


I shall comment no further on this particular sub-thread as it is too removed from the original subject



LadyEllen -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/26/2007 5:34:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Religions are not about equality or fairness in temporal life but about saving souls, their allegiance is to a higher authority than the state. OK some of us might think it is based on superstition but when push comes to shove, most people say they believe in one religion or another and that faith should come before allegiance to the state.

If you believe in a truth, the inevitable result will be discrimination.


In many cases MC, I would concur with you.

However to see all religions as suffering the same black and white view of the world and of human interaction is incorrect. I'm trying to think of an instance in my religion that would suggest discrimination, but I'm struggling......we discriminate on the grounds of criminality, words and deeds, rather than states of being.

Mind you, the way we are in this country, my religion doesnt even count as a religion.
E



Real0ne -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/26/2007 3:44:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Let each organization do what they want.

adopt kids from gay group them.

whats wrong that?

i think the one shoe fits all is crap.



Real0ne,

For me, the issue isn't independent choice. The problem is these people have been backed by the Church of England - so, in other words, we have our churches all parroting discrimination. They enjoy a lofty position in our society. If they can't show the charity and fairness they claim to be swimming in then I don't think they deserve the position they occupy. In sum, such discrimination belongs in the middle ages and if they're unable to take a step forward then they should be consigned to the middle ages.

if its a government imposed religion then i see a problem, however they should just go to the church that fits their choices and be done with it.



meatcleaver -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/26/2007 3:59:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

if its a government imposed religion then i see a problem, however they should just go to the church that fits their choices and be done with it.


Religion is not imposed by the government. The Church of England is an historic relic without any power which is why it is whinging along with the Catholic Church.

I'm not not religious myself in any shape or form but if religion is going to be accepted in society as a legitimate expression of spirituality then one has to accept it for what it is, irrational belief and let it act upon those beliefs to a point where they don't impact on a third party.

The Catholic agencies not putting forward gays as potential parents will not harm gays from adopting children because there are plenty of other agenices they can go to. This whole thing is the usual leftwing middleclass liberal stance. No one can deviate from the declared norm.



NorthernGent -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/26/2007 4:05:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Let each organization do what they want.

adopt kids from gay group them.

whats wrong that?

i think the one shoe fits all is crap.



Real0ne,

For me, the issue isn't independent choice. The problem is these people have been backed by the Church of England - so, in other words, we have our churches all parroting discrimination. They enjoy a lofty position in our society. If they can't show the charity and fairness they claim to be swimming in then I don't think they deserve the position they occupy. In sum, such discrimination belongs in the middle ages and if they're unable to take a step forward then they should be consigned to the middle ages.

if its a government imposed religion then i see a problem, however they should just go to the church that fits their choices and be done with it.



The bishops sit in the house of lords and decide upon the laws we are expected to follow. The fact they are appointed rather than elected is bad enough, bigots enoying such a priveleged place in our society is rubbing salt into the wounds.



meatcleaver -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/26/2007 4:08:18 PM)

The Bishops don't decide on the laws we have to follow. The Lords is a revising chamber and they sit there with all the other appointees because the executive don't want to give the second chamber any democratic legitimacy.



beastie7 -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/26/2007 4:15:50 PM)

Excuse my 2 cent worth; religon has and IS a government insitution. Hence we have 'The King James Version' of the bible, keywords King James Version. It was a governmental issue, to control of the masses. The 'Church' ruled England. The Catholic Church had infulence upon the Nazis in WW11, being itself Facisist; supported the Nazis. Even today an ex-NAZI sits on their throne as the Vicar of Christ. Pope Pius X11 a raging fascists. Read your history. The US always had a 'National Religon'; sanctioned by the US government. Even Bush hails as being a 'christian'; as do the republicans, not in 'spirit' but in actual minset. Religon is a 'Control' factor of and for the masses. There was and is no separation of 'State and Church'. Hey, call me an idiot; but before you do, run a web search first; check out your civiclised theological history. In France....poor Jeanne d'Arc. Government and church, hand in glove.



NorthernGent -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/26/2007 4:29:08 PM)

I'll say you're not far away:

1) In Britain, the Prime Minister appoints all the bishops and archbishops in the name of the queen. He knows that any ambitious young priest wouldn't dare to criticise the government.

2) Following on from the above, every bishop on appointment has to swear homage to the queen as the supreme governor of the realm - in other words, they have to deny the legitimacy of democracy and are rewarded with a seat in the house of lords.

3) At the queen's coronation, the archbishop of canterbury speaks of her as god's choice of the throne.

4) When there is a war involving British troops, Anglican chaplains bless the soldiers as they go to battle - thus using god's name to legitimise the killing of civilians.

In sum, the church is very much part of the state machine. They choose to kneel before the government, the queen and the house of lords in return for a position in the house of lords.



dcnovice -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/26/2007 8:57:20 PM)

quote:

Dcnovice, My point regarding the origins of sodomy was that I personally regard destroying entire cities as a little harsh, rather than loving.


Sleazy ---

I misunderstood you. Sorry! I thought you were pointing to the story of Sodom as a way of saying that God disapproves of homosexuality. The story's been used that way so often that I have a Pavlovian reaction to it. I agree that destroying a whole city is indeed a tab harsh. So was flooding the whole Earth, of course.

Cheers,

DC



meatcleaver -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/27/2007 6:36:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

In sum, the church is very much part of the state machine. They choose to kneel before the government, the queen and the house of lords in return for a position in the house of lords.


I'm laughing my head off because you are so blind to the reality.

The church of England heavily criticized Thatcher in the Falklands war and has heavily criticized the government over Iraq. Anglican chaplains don't bless the troops. You don't seem to have the first idea about the Anglican church and why it is different to the Catholic church. In fact many Anglican bishops have been calling for the disestablishment of the Anglican Church for quite some time now. The Catholic church refuses to sit in the House of Lords and is not barred. Muslims and Jews also have their representatives.

Personally I would have a democratic second chamber but you can't blame the house of Lords, you have to blame Parliament for not doing its job of holding the executive to account. But tell me a country that doesn't swear allegiance to the state,monarch or flag? I know you hate anything that remotely is the British establishment but a little honest reflection wouldn'y go amiss.



seeksfemslave -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/27/2007 8:32:22 AM)

If it were possible.!!!
Regurgitating what he read somewhere  or was taught = Plus Good
Interpretion of that knowledge on to the current political scene = Double |Plus Ungood.
Must try harder....lol



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