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RE: Israel - 1/26/2007 1:37:40 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: docmike1

And the call "To push the Jews into the sea" is still chanted daily, and the elected Hamas, dont even recognize us as a state..Therefore, unfortunatley, I'm far from optermistic about the immidiate future..

There will always be extremists who want to derail any peace process on both sides, They need isolating, the problem is there are no statemen around with a vision and the US administration which insists it has a say in the region is, with Bush, woefully limited in intellect and vision. Hamas should not have been immediately isolated, people should ahve waited to see if they would change the language of opposition when they had power. Instead they were immediately ostracized, taxes and finances were cut off to the Palestinians which made Hamas immediately more popular. Don't forget the Palestinians voted for Hamas because Israel and the US would not seriously negotiate with Fatah and its more moderate administration. Istreal and the US with their positions are inviting more extremism into the area. Bush is too dumb to see it and Olmert too blind.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/26/2007 1:38:18 AM >

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Post #: 41

RE: Israel - 1/26/2007 11:12:53 AM

Adrenochrome

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quote:

ORIGINAL: docmike1

To meatcleaver
Re" Israeli expansion" I assure you, Israel, even in the first Lebanese war , had no intentions of expansion.

Can you explain Operation: Peace for Galilee to me, then, please? I was under the impression that it was nothing but an unprovoked expansionist manouver, which happened to kill hundreds of innocent civillians, all under the direction of (then general) Sharon.

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Post #: 42

RE: Israel - 1/26/2007 11:14:08 AM

Adrenochrome

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SkatDomina

They all should have their heads smacked together. The only winners in this stupid fiasco are the gravediggers.

Hear, hear.

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Post #: 43

RE: Israel - 1/26/2007 11:28:29 AM

caitlyn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
They need isolating, the problem is there are no statemen around with a vision and the US administration which insists it has a say in the region is, with Bush, woefully limited in intellect and vision. Hamas should not have been immediately isolated, people should ahve waited to see if they would change the language of opposition when they had power. Instead they were immediately ostracized, taxes and finances were cut off to the Palestinians which made Hamas immediately more popular. Don't forget the Palestinians voted for Hamas because Israel and the US would not seriously negotiate with Fatah and its more moderate administration. Istreal and the US with their positions are inviting more extremism into the area. Bush is too dumb to see it and Olmert too blind.

To me, you have that backwards. Negotiations with moderate groups would, once again, only serve to make them targets for the more extreme groups. Your plan assumes that with an American/Israeli shift towards more moderate positions, the more radical one's would vanish.

I'm not a supporter of Israel, primarily seeing guilt all around ... but do think that if the Palestinians really want to negotiate, they need to rid themselves of these radical elements first.

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RE: Israel - 1/26/2007 12:31:19 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

I'm not a supporter of Israel, primarily seeing guilt all around ... but do think that if the Palestinians really want to negotiate, they need to rid themselves of these radical elements first.

How many new countries had governments that were made up of terrorists. Two I can think of are the USA and Israel. However, many former European colonies have had to come to terms with extremists and many of those extremists took power, with mixed results but some did well, some didn't. Northern Ireland brought terrorists into the legitimate politics. The USA's refusal to talk with anyone it deems as an extremist has proved to be a barren policy.

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RE: Israel - 1/26/2007 12:44:29 PM

caitlyn

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What other countries do, is not on point. The "little Billy did it too" argument stopped working in Middle School.

The reality is that several administrations have reached out to both sides, and were met by radicals on both sides. In the instance of the Palestinian, moderate leaders tend to end up having an explosively short life span.

Let's rephrase ... putting this on your favorite whipping boy, is illogical. If these TWO groups want to negotiate, then BOTH of them need to rid themselves of radical elements.

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Post #: 46

RE: Israel - 1/26/2007 1:00:26 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

The reality is that several administrations have reached out to both sides, and were met by radicals on both sides. In the instance of the Palestinian, moderate leaders tend to end up having an explosively short life span.

Let's rephrase ... putting this on your favorite whipping boy, is illogical. If these TWO groups want to negotiate, then BOTH of them need to rid themselves of radical elements.

I'm struggling to think of one administration that has been even handed in the middle east. I think that is purely the perception of Americans.

One group has all the power and the other only has power in retaliation but short of genocide won't be going away. That is why the conflict requires a truely honest broker. Not one that blames one side while arming the other.

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Post #: 47

RE: Israel - 1/26/2007 1:07:51 PM

caitlyn

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I didn't say even handed.

Are you denying that several administrations have tried to sponsor talks?

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Post #: 48

RE: Israel - 1/26/2007 2:03:08 PM

sleazy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
How many new countries had governments that were made up of terrorists. Two I can think of are the USA and Israel.

The current South African regime came about as a result of terrorism too as did Algeria. I suspect that many other coup d'etats within Africa could be labeled as having terrorist origins.

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Post #: 49

RE: Israel - 1/26/2007 3:19:40 PM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
How many new countries had governments that were made up of terrorists. Two I can think of are the USA and Israel.

The current South African regime came about as a result of terrorism too as did Algeria. I suspect that many other coup d'etats within Africa could be labeled as having terrorist origins.

Yeh the us of a was a terrorist group when we dumped all that tea in the harbor.

one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter

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RE: Israel - 1/26/2007 4:27:11 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SkatDomina

I certainly wouldn't defend the attacks on Israel but you would need to be blind in both eyes to believe Israel is any kind of innocent party.

They all should have their heads smacked together. The only winners in this stupid fiasco are the gravediggers.

Arms merchants as well.

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RE: Israel - 1/27/2007 5:54:24 PM

Termyn8or

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maybe I am ignoref

see you in another thread.

fuck this

T

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