With so many immigrants now in England and now (Full Version)

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seekstofasn8adom -> With so many immigrants now in England and now (1/25/2007 9:42:35 AM)

With the Romanians,and the Bulgarians soon to be hitting our shores.Who are both repeatedly reported to be offering to work in our country for as little as two pound an hour.To undercut all us Brits,to get the work.Then when there are no jobs available for us Brits.Cause by that time everyone will be working for as little as two pound an hour,within a couple of years.And how these Bulgarians and Romanians will be able to live i hear you ask?Well they will live in about a household of ten,so therefore they will be able then to work for as little as two pound an hour.But as a result of this do you think British jobs are at risk.I seriously think that they are but what about you now please what do you think?



meatcleaver -> RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now (1/25/2007 9:54:57 AM)

Bulgaria and Rumania are new members of the EU. If Britain has a problem with them then Britain should leave the EU. If migrants are working for as little as two pounds per hour, the government should enforce the minimum wage. If the migrants are illegal, what does it matter, in a few years they will be legal anyway and most probably they are doing work that Brits won't do.  Despite Brits feeling they are being inundated with migrants (most are EU citizens) they are not absorbing as many as other EU countries.



sleazy -> RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now (1/25/2007 10:42:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Despite Brits feeling they are being inundated with migrants (most are EU citizens) they are not absorbing as many as other EU countries.


Got any hard figures on that?

Last I heard the other great Euro nations (Germany & France) had imposed quota systems for immigrants from the eastern/baltic states joining the EU (contrary to EU law, but since when did that matter), whereas the UK had no such restrictions.

Immigrants from eastern europe into the UK 427095 from may 2004 to june 2006 (thats just the number that legally registered to work*) According to figures I have to hand, working on a population of 60 million, and say 60% of those falling into the 16-64 age group that make up the work pool that gives us 36 million, from which we must remove a considerable pile, the stay at home parents, the students, the prison population and of course the unemployed and those unable to work through illness or disability, that makes the half million or so immigrants from the east quite a noticable protion of the workforce.

The Dustmann report commisioned by the UK home office predicted 5-13000 annually from the east into the UK. Guess that was a little wrong. The figures I have to hand show only Ireland and Sweden having a higher number of immigrants as a percentage of working age population (16-64).



popeye1250 -> RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now (1/25/2007 11:36:16 AM)

Some Union Builders had a problem with that in the New England area illegal aliens taking their jobs for less money.
Two words; "Gasoline" "Matches."
They didn't have that problem anymore.



meatcleaver -> RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now (1/25/2007 11:58:35 AM)

 
From Wikipedia sources. Can't find any EU official figures. 19 % of the German population was foreign born. Holland has 19% of the population foreign born. Britain has 8% of the population foreign born. France has 10% foreign born. Italy has 5%, Spain 15% foreign born.

France has the most asylum seekers.



NorthernGent -> RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now (1/25/2007 1:19:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seekstofasn8adom

With the Romanians,and the Bulgarians soon to be hitting our shores.Who are both repeatedly reported to be offering to work in our country for as little as two pound an hour.To undercut all us Brits,to get the work.Then when there are no jobs available for us Brits.Cause by that time everyone will be working for as little as two pound an hour,within a couple of years.And how these Bulgarians and Romanians will be able to live i hear you ask?Well they will live in about a household of ten,so therefore they will be able then to work for as little as two pound an hour.But as a result of this do you think British jobs are at risk.I seriously think that they are but what about you now please what do you think?


Tell you what, if you're worried about being undercut by a rumanian working for 2 quid an hour then it's back to school in the morning.




sleazy -> RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now (1/25/2007 1:28:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


From Wikipedia sources. Can't find any EU official figures. 19 % of the German population was foreign born. Holland has 19% of the population foreign born. Britain has 8% of the population foreign born. France has 10% foreign born. Italy has 5%, Spain 15% foreign born.

France has the most asylum seekers.


The figures I quoted are from the EU as part of a Worldbank report and deal specifically with the groups in question, namely the economic migrants from the new members of the EU, which is after all the subject matter of the thread.



meatcleaver -> RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now (1/25/2007 1:56:28 PM)

The British government admits it is clueless as to how many migrant workers are in the Britain so I don't know how any other organisation knows.



meatcleaver -> RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now (1/25/2007 2:10:32 PM)

I can't find EU statistics on migrants from new eastern European EU member countries to western EU countries. I can't even find British statistics, just government announcements and hyperbole in newpapers that don't seem to have any access to any reliable figures. The only stats I can find is the percentage of foreigners in a country and Britain has far less than many western European countries.



LadyEllen -> RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now (1/25/2007 2:10:36 PM)

This is all very well seekstofasn8, except -

In respect of Rumania and Bulgaria, there is to be a far tighter regulation on numbers coming here to work, consisting of quota systems for skilled workers only from these two countries.

We have a minimum wage in place.

We have more than enough vacancies in the UK for several tens of thousands to come anyway, with no detriment to the British worker. These are jobs which the British unemployed will not do.

There is of course a way around the first two, by way of Bulgarians and Rumanians travelling here for a "holiday", which they remain free to do as EU citizens, but then entering the black economy by way of illegal working for perhaps, the two pounds an hour you suggest. However, I do not see unqualified people who do not speak English, managing to dislodge many British workers from their jobs in this way. The Inland Revenue will be watching for the signals of this occurring and it would simply not be worth the penalties for businesses getting caught.

I'm also not too worried about the "gypsy threat". Czech and Slovakia are full of gypsies, as is Rumania. We're not talking about the sort of gypsies we know as gypsies either here by the way - I saw some in a rural Czech village and raised a laugh from my Czech colleagues by noting the "Indians". The threat spoken of is that these very poor, and by all accounts very criminal gypsies will swarm to the UK for our benefits system, and to evade the deeply prejudicial regard in which they are held in their home countries. It hasnt happened with the Czech and Slovak gypsies so I dont see it happening with the Rumanians either.

Now, on immigration itself, I have no problem with it - except the country is full! Sure, we have fields left to build on, but we are running out of water on a regular basis now because of the draw on this resource, and we are seeing far more floods than usual because of the increasing urbanisation. We should not take in any more immigrants than are required to maintain the population now, and instead resolve how we can make best use of the people resources in respect of our economy, which we have now - we have a million unemployed, claiming benefits, most of whom could be, and should be employed before we import more qualified and skilled people from others' economies where they are more needed.

E



meatcleaver -> RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now (1/25/2007 2:18:00 PM)

General post.

Accepting the EU is not perfect, like any multi-national organisation it is only as good as its member countries allow it to be but if people believe in the fundemental ideals behind the EU, this is a none issue. If people don't believe in those ideals, they should lobby their government to leave the EU and not stay a member and endlessly whinge and whine. You have to take the good with the bad and what you aren't happy with, fight for reform.



philosophy -> RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now (1/25/2007 3:39:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seekstofasn8adom

With the Romanians,and the Bulgarians soon to be hitting our shores.Who are both repeatedly reported to be offering to work in our country for as little as two pound an hour.To undercut all us Brits,to get the work.


[my italics]

...reported by who? Sounds like one of those BNP pieces of propaganda to me.......



sleazy -> RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now (1/25/2007 4:05:25 PM)

A couple or so years ago, I had the pleasure of living near to an organisation that regularly hired mini-bus loads of Poles for as little as a pound and hour plus accomodation. This was despite the high unemployment locally and despite a great deal of touble caused to local residents by these bussed in workers. Even now, want to guess how much a carpenter or electrician needs to realistically earn to raise a family in London? Now imagine if he could share a £800 a month house with 8 or 9 others whilst his family stayed somewhere much cheaper. That is why a shopfitter here can barely afford to work, wheras an immigrant one can make do on minimum wage (and often claim that they have family resident here so as to claim the various tax credits too). There is a sound economic basis for employing cheap labour, but the social costs cannot really be given a numerical value

For those who are really number junkies and would like the source I used for my numbers feel free to try looking for..............
Worldbank EU8 Quarterly Economic Report Part II Special Report September 2006.

The government my not know how many migrant workers are in the country, but they do know how many have followed the law and signed up to the Worker Registration Scheme (the 400k figure I quoted earlier).

According the the report I cited for the Czech & Slovak migrants it seems the majority did not move too far, mainly neighbouring countries. However it seems the newer member states are prepared, willing and even eager to travel much further from home. I am not sure why the Czechs & Slovaks seemed to stay closer to home, perhaps a cultural thing.

For anyone who really wonders, may I suggest a day stood at either of the Victoria coach stations here in London, or failing that just take a look at the registration plates as you head out into the edges. I know a one day head count would not really make for valid statistics, but hey if anyone is that bored and wants to make a two week holiday of it :)







LadyIce -> RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now (1/25/2007 4:13:51 PM)

Sounds just like what is happening in America right now, with the
influx of illegal immigrants.



meatcleaver -> RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now (1/25/2007 11:23:58 PM)

If there is a big deal here, it is the exploitation of migrant workers. As for the migrant workers themselves, we are talking about citizens of the EU who have temporary restrictions placed upon them but in a couple of years they will have no restrictions anyway. It really is no big deal and Britain isn't the only country that has to deal with it. Many countries have restrictions on migrant workers from new member countries but the retrictions are pointless, the workers still migrate, it is a consequence of their joining the EU. One of the ideas of the EU was to develop the economies of poorer parts of Europe, paying migrant workers who send money home is probably more efficient than paying for corrupt EU projects to do the same job.

Sleazy, your post sounds right out of the Daily Mail. There are Polish workers here and they are well educated and skilled and do not live 8 or 9 in a house. There are Bulgarian and Romanian workers here too and they do tend to work for the gangs leaders but they are mainly young. When Britain was first a member of the EU I and many Britains did the same thing in Holland, France and Germany. It's no big deal and I don't believe all the crime that is put upon these migrant workers. When I did it there were the high spirits of a gang of young men out on a jolly but nothing you could call crime and from what I have seen of the gangs here being picked up at the Central Station, it is no different now. I'm glad people were less xenophobic in my day.



UtopianRanger -> RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now (1/25/2007 11:51:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: seekstofasn8adom

With the Romanians,and the Bulgarians soon to be hitting our shores.Who are both repeatedly reported to be offering to work in our country for as little as two pound an hour.To undercut all us Brits,to get the work.Then when there are no jobs available for us Brits.Cause by that time everyone will be working for as little as two pound an hour,within a couple of years.And how these Bulgarians and Romanians will be able to live i hear you ask?Well they will live in about a household of ten,so therefore they will be able then to work for as little as two pound an hour.But as a result of this do you think British jobs are at risk.I seriously think that they are but what about you now please what do you think?


Tell you what, if you're worried about being undercut by a rumanian working for 2 quid an hour then it's back to school in the morning.




I'm gonna have to put a few of you in touch with British defense analyst I often read; who says it's the ''poles'' who share one house with fifty people and are undermining the indigenous folk by working for cheaper wages and longer hrs. Sounds like a familiar problem. He even says that the ''poles'' are responsible for some of the recent dislocation within the UK's holy Muslim community



 - R



NorthernGent -> RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now (1/26/2007 12:17:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: seekstofasn8adom

With the Romanians,and the Bulgarians soon to be hitting our shores.Who are both repeatedly reported to be offering to work in our country for as little as two pound an hour.To undercut all us Brits,to get the work.Then when there are no jobs available for us Brits.Cause by that time everyone will be working for as little as two pound an hour,within a couple of years.And how these Bulgarians and Romanians will be able to live i hear you ask?Well they will live in about a household of ten,so therefore they will be able then to work for as little as two pound an hour.But as a result of this do you think British jobs are at risk.I seriously think that they are but what about you now please what do you think?


Tell you what, if you're worried about being undercut by a rumanian working for 2 quid an hour then it's back to school in the morning.




I'm gonna have to put a few of you in touch with British defense analyst I often read; who says it's the ''poles'' who share one house with fifty people and are undermining the indigenous folk by working for cheaper wages and longer hrs. Sounds like a familiar problem. He even says that the ''poles'' are responsible for some of the recent dislocation within the UK's holy Muslim community

- R


Oh there's an issue alright. My suggestion is/was if a person is doing a job that can be undercut for as little as 2 quid an hour (considering I was working in bars during university years in 1993 for around 3.50 an hour and bar work is right down there with the worst of the low paid work) then I would seriously consider improving my education.

To date, the economy has managed to soak up Eastern European labour without too much dislocation (although it has to be said that British unemployment has increased).

There are two problems:

1) These are not immigrants. They're migrant workers who will return to Poland. Thus, this a quick fix when the government should be looking at long term sustainable economic growth driven by improving the skills and capabilities of the British population.

2) There are potentially serious consequences for ethnic relations. The British population will blame the migrant workers (rather than those directing policy) if British unemployment rises at a rapid rate of knots.

In reality, a study on Rumanian and Bulgarian migrant workers has concluded that the vast majority will head for Italy because they share the same climate and a modicum of shared culture. So, maybe the cause for concern is overplayed. Then again, the government predicted 13,000 Poles would come to Britain and there are now something like 625,000.

On a related note, the 3 economies which have recently enjoyed the largest growth in the EU are the three who adopted an open borders policy to Eastern European labour i.e. Britain, Sweden, Ireland. Unfortunately, this is no consolation for those low skilled British workers who find themselves out of a job.

Everyone I have spoken to who employ Poles say they are hard grafters. They're a small business' dream because they're reasonably skilled and will work their knackers off for the same money. These business owners are getting increased value for money because they are prepared to work 6 solid days a week as opposed to 5.



UtopianRanger -> RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now (1/26/2007 12:51:14 AM)

 Say Gent.....

What do you think about cramming twenty or more people into a single house to live? I know that over here.....the opposition to the free flow of immigration is working to change and more narrowly define the Housing-density laws. It seems rather uncivilized to let 20, 30, 40 people cram into a small house and sleep on the floor.





- R



SkatDomina -> RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now (1/26/2007 12:59:23 AM)

Political correctness, meet common sense.  Common sense, this is political correctness.  Shake hands and come out fighting.




NorthernGent -> RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now (1/26/2007 1:15:34 AM)

UR, I can honestly say it's news to me. I thought you were joking in your original post - it seems the wrong end of the stick on my part. I'm not saying it is beyond the realms of possibility but I would be very surprised. Not because we are particularly civilised nor because it's cheap to live here because it's not - I know people who go to New York on shopping trips because it's so much cheaper to buy things (or at least that's the perception).

I live in what is deemed to be England's second city and there are a large number of Poles here - I've heard no such problems. Put it this way, they have enough money to get absolutely blotto on a Saturday afternoon - you can see a minority of them stumbling around town singing indecipherable songs.

It'll be interesting to see a link of the 20, 30 or 40 to a house.



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