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RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible - 2/2/2007 10:44:03 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy
On the witness subject, anyone got a name for the aero expert that saw a 737? As I have two names here that claim 737, and one that claims a 747!
Morin, Terry            Terry Morin, a former USMC aviator, Program Manager for SPARTA, Inc was working as a contractor at the BMDO offices at the old Navy Annex.
Dobbs, Mike            Marine Corps officer Mike Dobbs ... saw an American Airlines 737 twin-engine airliner strike the building.

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Profile   Post #: 281
RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible - 2/2/2007 11:05:54 PM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline 		thanks rule, I found him elsewhere.

Must admit to a secret smirk though, I mean jeez an exmarine now working for a defence contractor, now there is somebody who could be relied on to lie for the military-industrial complex !!!! :)

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Profile   Post #: 282
RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible - 2/2/2007 11:17:56 PM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline 		Just to really rub the point home
http://www.flickr.com/photos/50835579@N00/378078450/ Straight line from entry to exit
http://www.flickr.com/photos/50835579@N00/378085863/ moderately damaged column
http://www.flickr.com/photos/50835579@N00/378078456/ daylight generally travels in pretty straight lines
http://www.flickr.com/photos/50835579@N00/378078453/ more column damage outside collapsed area (not damaged enough to weaken them too much I presume)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/50835579@N00/378085865/ some scarring on facade
http://www.flickr.com/photos/50835579@N00/378085866/ that oddly appears to be about 40ft up the facade in an area that it is quite concievable that a vertical stabiliser could impact


All these pics are available in the public domain, for interior shots I have hundreds more but they are subject to distribution contracts


EDIT - It seem CC have some url filtering, replace **** with "at" symbol as if in an email address

< Message edited by sleazy -- 2/2/2007 11:19:20 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 283
RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible - 2/2/2007 11:18:55 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		I have not investigated Morin and Dobbs, but for the moment consider them credible. Of those that saw an AA 757 that I investigated I found none credible. (I investigated about a handful.)
 
The site that you referred me to in one account said that Timmerman actually was in his apartment when he saw the plane crash. I wonder who was up there with him in that C130 cargo plane. They would need at least one person to fly the C130 and Timmerman to fly the 737. Can you fly a C130 alone? I suppose Timmerman would have assisted at take off and landing. The C130 crew should be limited to as few as possible and as much as necessary. Who was the pilot and were there any others besides Timmerman on board?
 
Eh, sleazy, when I try to follow your links I get the message "bad link". I experienced the same in one of your earlier posts, so I have not been able to view what you want people to view.

< Message edited by Rule -- 2/2/2007 11:22:08 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 284
RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible - 2/2/2007 11:42:07 PM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline 		Go on, quote Morin correctly..... he says "looked like a 737" not "was a 737", he also cannot recall if the word "american" was in big letters down the hull

Notice you skip this claim for a 737 as he cant even get the colour right "Jim Sutherland, a mortgage broker, was on his way to the Pentagon when he saw ... a white 737 twin-engine plane"
 
There is also at least one published witness claiming a 747, and one claiming an airbus or 757. Yet you are happy to pin your entire theory on two statements, despite all the physical evidence to the contrary

How about the people that report the aircraft as gear down? hell if people cant agree on gear down or gear up at close range how can you seriously expect agreement over the fine differences between two very similar aircraft. Also ask yourself, if aircraft are so easy to identify, in the heat of the moment during a high stress situation, why do we have IFF and "blue on blue" firing

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Profile   Post #: 285
RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible - 2/2/2007 11:43:50 PM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
Eh, sleazy, when I try to follow your links I get the message "bad link". I experienced the same in one of your earlier posts, so I have not been able to view what you want people to view.


I think we may have cross posted as I edited, CC have url filtering on replace **** with "at" symbol as in an email address

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Profile   Post #: 286
RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible - 2/3/2007 12:13:23 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		I have seen one pic now. Will look at the others after the weekend.

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Profile   Post #: 287
RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible - 2/3/2007 1:52:55 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy
Hope you didnt make the common mistake of calling Rolls in Indiana - that would have been a real downer for you!

While you are at it, call a construction engineer, ask him how much damage a steel reinforced concrete column of 21 inches square from a hardended building of say 60 years ago, and re-strengthened recently would have to take for it to be classed as significant i.e. a threat to structural integrity.

Still waiting for a pic that proves/disproves a vertical stabiliser. (PS I am sat here looking at a lovely picture of scarring on the facade..... at the 4th floor level!, oh and what do you know, I switch window and there is pic from the hole in the wall of ring 3 looking towards the initial impact point, and what do you know, you can see daylight, and that requires some seriously heavy shit to stop it going in a dead straight line I shall upload these once I move out of a secure area)



On the witness subject, anyone got a name for the aero expert that saw a 737? As I have two names here that claim 737, and one that claims a 747!


you have not posted one pic link that works.  do tell


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Profile   Post #: 288
RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible - 2/3/2007 2:19:58 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

But Real you have already been caught as a direct liar about your "map".  You intentionally lie to say that areas clearly marked as damaged were not damaged.  Your entire argument is based on you telling lies.  you were caught in that lie, and it didn't even seem to phase you.  To any thinking person, that indicates you are wrong.  The question is is it intentional or not. 


Its been proven on several occasions that your reading  comprehension skills are less than a 5th grade level and as a result you constantly falsely accuse people of lying. 

The problem is that your accusational posts are always based on those misinterpretations and misrepresentations of what has been said.  i have pointed that out on several occasions and it does not seem to phase you, you just keep spewing this same garbage over and over and wonder why everyone ignores you. 

Unfortunately in your case its not a question of intention, its problematic.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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Profile   Post #: 289
RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible - 2/3/2007 2:25:59 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		thats why those pics did not work


< Message edited by Real0ne -- 2/3/2007 2:34:13 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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Profile   Post #: 290
RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible - 2/3/2007 4:36:16 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

Just to really rub the point home
http://www.flickr.com/photos/50835579@N00/378078450/ Straight line from entry to exit
http://www.flickr.com/photos/50835579@N00/378085863/ moderately damaged column
http://www.flickr.com/photos/50835579@N00/378078456/ daylight generally travels in pretty straight lines
http://www.flickr.com/photos/50835579@N00/378078453/ more column damage outside collapsed area (not damaged enough to weaken them too much I presume)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/50835579@N00/378085865/ some scarring on facade
http://www.flickr.com/photos/50835579@N00/378085866/ that oddly appears to be about 40ft up the facade in an area that it is quite concievable that a vertical stabiliser could impact


All these pics are available in the public domain, for interior shots I have hundreds more but they are subject to distribution contracts


EDIT - It seem CC have some url filtering, replace **** with "at" symbol as if in an email address


Rub what point home? 

That your analytical skills = F
Your observational skills = F
Your photo analysis skills = F

Where have we heard that before?

You are in the business huh? 
For whose side?

i have no idea where you got that "Straight line from entry to exit" map that neither agrees with the officially released ASCE report and is nowhere to be found in the official ASCE report! 

Once Again Here is The "Officially Released"  Pentagon Damage Map http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/ASCE2003Pentagonperformancereport.jpg

i took another snapshot of it, (a larger one), directly off of the "Officially Released"  ASCE report illustrating it can be found on page 53 for those who are interested in actually looking it up.

OR are you trying to say the officially released version is a FAKE?


i love that pic, "daylight generally travels in pretty straight lines" illustrating your professional in the business expertise that rates a big "F".

That hole pic is taken nearly perpendicular to the wall of the building not at a 45 degree angle. 
That and i only see office and building garbage around that hole not one plane part!  That and the office garbage isnt even crushed as one would expect if it was part of the your fluid mass theory that supposedly crashed into the wall and blew a hole in it.   i have yet to see a car that hits a brick wall without being crushed, yet you can see desk drawers and frames all intact.

So the light you see is coming from the small windows directly across the other side of the building and not coming in at 45 degree entry point of impact zone where there is a BIG 25 x 50 ft window LOL

Then there is "that oddly appears to be about 40ft up the facade in an area that it is quite concievable that a vertical stabiliser could impact".

20 feet south of the impact point?  Do explain how the vert stab impacts 20 feet south of the impact point?

Rub a Dub Dubby!

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 2/3/2007 5:13:56 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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Profile   Post #: 291
RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible - 2/3/2007 7:02:50 AM   
sleazy


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From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

But Real you have already been caught as a direct liar about your "map".  You intentionally lie to say that areas clearly marked as damaged were not damaged.  Your entire argument is based on you telling lies.  you were caught in that lie, and it didn't even seem to phase you.  To any thinking person, that indicates you are wrong.  The question is is it intentional or not. 


Its been proven on several occasions that your reading  comprehension skills are less than a 5th grade level and as a result you constantly falsely accuse people of lying. 

The problem is that your accusational posts are always based on those misinterpretations and misrepresentations of what has been said.  i have pointed that out on several occasions and it does not seem to phase you, you just keep spewing this same garbage over and over and wonder why everyone ignores you. 

Unfortunately in your case its not a question of intention, its problematic.



quote:

REALONE POST 192
The problem i have is that there is a no damage, or techincally a very "small damage" zone between ring 2 and the outer wall of ring 3.
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/asce-illus-2.gif 

quote:

RULE POST 197
The yellow marked columns in front of the wall were damaged.

quote:

 REALONE POST 199
Substantiate and support your last claim of a fluid gob of parts getting around the yellow non-damaged area and making a hole in the ring 3 wall!

quote:

 REALONE POST 199
Substantiate and support your last claim of a fluid gob of parts getting around the yellow non-damaged area and making a hole in the ring 3 wall!

I Repeat 199 as you make the erronous, misleading claim of No Damage twice in the same post

quote:

RULE POST 201
Look at the legend next to the yellow marker, RO. The yellow marked pillars are marked as such because they are damaged.

quote:

REALONE POST 203
Righr insignificant damage, that is my point.  i tend to call it no damage


And you still claim NO DAMAGE? Real, at the very least that is gross mis-representation, the argument for an outright lie is equally valid

Some of the columns shown in my pics of the interior according to your interpretion are either lightly or not damaged.

Again, I ask you how much damage can a 21 inch by 21 inch steel reinforced column built to be for a hardened building of some 60 or so years ago (no crays to model blast waves, so over engineering was the norm for the day) and further reinforced in the last decade take before its structural function is impaired.


As for the picture, there is an aspect of imaging called angle of view, for the human eye (or a 35mm camera with 50mm lens) this is generally accepted to be 120 degrees of arc.

Therefore an average human eye at exit point WOULD be able to see the centre of the impact point without moving. If there was no angle of view, all that would be visible on the wall of the E ring would be a piece of wall app 9ft long, clearly that camera/lens combination shows otherwise proving that there is no tunnel vision


Having said that it appears some people are exceedingly narrow in their out looks, good old tree/forest syndrome I presume

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Profile   Post #: 292
RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible - 2/3/2007 7:57:38 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
i have no idea where you got that "Straight line from entry to exit" map that neither agrees with the officially released ASCE report and is nowhere to be found in the official ASCE report! 

Once Again Here is The "Officially Released"  Pentagon Damage Map http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/ASCE2003Pentagonperformancereport.jpg

I note that sleazy's map is upside down as compared to RO's first published map. The maps seem to be identical, once corrected for orientation, with the difference that RO's map is more detailed as to the level of damage to the columns. What is marked red in sleazy's map, is usually marked yellow in RO's map.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy
hell if people cant agree on gear down or gear up at close range how can you seriously expect agreement over the fine differences between two very similar aircraft.

Then you agree that the people who said that they saw an AA 757 are either liars or may well have mistaken a 737 for a 757?
 
I rely on the testimony of an expert witness, an aviator. That someone corroborates his testimony is nice, and a pleasant surprise, but not necessary as far as I am concerned.
 
Discrepancies in testimony are always interesting. We may assume that Timmerman already had a tough job piloting the 737 without the added encumberance of flying with landing gear down, besides knowing that there would be light poles in its path, so we may also assume that the gear was not down. So either the gear down witnesses were liars and as such persons of interest, or they had some kind of psychological Pavlov reflex - i.e. their brains filled in the holes not seen; that is what the brain does in each of us continually.

< Message edited by Rule -- 2/3/2007 8:19:35 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 293
RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible - 2/3/2007 8:14:44 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		Oops, a double post.

< Message edited by Rule -- 2/3/2007 8:15:50 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 294
RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible - 2/3/2007 9:12:40 AM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
i have no idea where you got that "Straight line from entry to exit" map that neither agrees with the officially released ASCE report and is nowhere to be found in the official ASCE report! 

Once Again Here is The "Officially Released"  Pentagon Damage Map http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/ASCE2003Pentagonperformancereport.jpg

I note that sleazy's map is upside down as compared to RO's first published map. The maps seem to be identical, once corrected for orientation, with the difference that RO's map is more detailed as to the level of damage to the columns. What is marked red in sleazy's map, is usually marked yellow in RO's map.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy
hell if people cant agree on gear down or gear up at close range how can you seriously expect agreement over the fine differences between two very similar aircraft.

Then you agree that the people who said that they saw an AA 757 are either liars or may well have mistaken a 737 for a 757?

Nope, not at all. Unless of course that is you are willing to accept the just as likely proposition that people lie about or could well have mistaken a 757 for a 737, or an airbus 320, a Lear type business jet, or as one witness claimed a 747 (and the 747 is exceptionally distinctive from some view points due the the hump, and also carries twice as many engines). The boeings & airbus all are twin underwing engine commercial jets with conventional stabiliser arrangements of similar size, the lear type generally has a T type stabiliser arrangement and engines mounted on the rear of the hull, and differences for the 747 have already been outlined. Bear in mind that for anyone that does not work on a runway they were seeing things out of their percieved natural environment and so any judgement of physical size is subjective.
quote:


I rely on the testimony of an expert witness, an aviator. That someone corroborates his testimony is nice, and a pleasant surprise, but not necessary as far as I am concerned.

Blue on Blue? IFF? Have you perchance seen the expert testimony from experts the world over that points out that from some angles an ancient old 707 can appear to be a 747 and vice versa (incident in case KAL007)? Such witnesses included ADIZ interceptor pilots and if you would expect anyone to have good recognition skills it would be them.

What aircraft did your aviator fly? Where was his home base? Where did he normally fly? What role did he fly in? All of these points are perfectly valid questions.
quote:

 
Discrepancies in testimony are always interesting. We may assume that Timmerman already had a tough job piloting the 737 without the added encumberance of flying with landing gear down, besides knowing that there would be light poles in its path, so we may also assume that the gear was not down. So either the gear down witnesses were liars and as such persons of interest, or they had some kind of psychological Pavlov reflex - i.e. their brains filled in the holes not seen; that is what the brain does in each of us continually.

Correction, YOU may assume Timmerman etc etc, I have seen nothing that points to him being on board a C130, please cite a credible source. I notice you seem to agree with the idea of people seeing what they think they see depending on the environment, i.e. in this instance low flying commercial jets should have gear down, therefore this one did, can we not therefore accept the concept that matters of scale are subjective too.

< Message edited by sleazy -- 2/3/2007 9:15:23 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 295
RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible - 2/3/2007 9:17:40 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

REALONE POST 192
The problem i have is that there is a no damage, or techincally a very "small damage" zone between ring 2 and the outer wall of ring 3.
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/asce-illus-2.gif
REALONE POST 203
Righr insignificant damage, that is my point.  i tend to call it no damage


Look at that i gave you the asce diagram for reference and full explanation of the terms i used and how to interpret them and like certain others in here you seem to have a 5th grade comprehension level since you simply do not get it.

Yellow = Cracking and spalling but NO SIGNIFICANT impairment of function.

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/ASCE2003Pentagonperformancereport00.jpg

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy
And you still claim NO DAMAGE? Real, at the very least that is gross mis-representation, the argument for an outright lie is equally valid  


You claim that i claim no damage. i very clearly defined how to interpret my usage

i claimed it is INSIGNIFICANT which is equivalent to IRRELEVANT which is equivalent to NO DAMAGE. for the purpose of getting my point across to THOSE WITH A 5TH GRADE COMPREHENSION LEVEL

Everything was spelled out for you including how to interpret it, and this is really all about your trying to turn this into bullshit rather than a discussion which it as lame and tired as lame and tired can possibly get. 

oh ok so now since you lost that battle for the second time so now for the second time you want to change the point and move on to:
quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy
Again, I ask you how much damage can a 21 inch by 21 inch steel reinforced column built to be for a hardened building of some 60 or so years ago (no crays to model blast waves, so over engineering was the norm for the day) and further reinforced in the last decade take before its structural function is impaired.

It takes blue damage
Blue = Impacted with large deformation with significant impairment of function.

Ok so whats the next point you want to skip to since you lost another round and want to avoid this point?  To hell with concluding anything as long as you can find someone to dance with.

Thats the way analysis is done, when your physics is screwed up skip to the next pointless subject and continue skipping from one battle ground  to another rather than prove out your fluid mass of undamaged plane + office junk that went around the yellow marked area to crash unscathed through a brick wall and make a big red 8ft hole in it.

So continuing the sleazy report card...

ability to understand nomenclature = F
ability to apply nomenclature to results = ZERO
ability to dazzle with briliance = ZERO
ability to baffle with bullshit = ZERO
ability to prove out his theories = -10

ability to chase his own tail = A+
ability to make a fool out of himself = A+
Ability to put his own ignorance on another = ZERO

People that have to resort to the kinds of tactics that you are using have zippo credibility and are only here for the dance.  My time is much better spent discussing things with people i can appreciate and learn from in the manner demonstrated n the tax, warming, and jfk threads than wasting my time with dancers like you in any thread.





_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to sleazy)
Profile   Post #: 296
RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible - 2/3/2007 9:27:06 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
i have no idea where you got that "Straight line from entry to exit" map that neither agrees with the officially released ASCE report and is nowhere to be found in the official ASCE report! 

Once Again Here is The "Officially Released"  Pentagon Damage Map http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/ASCE2003Pentagonperformancereport.jpg

I note that sleazy's map is upside down as compared to RO's first published map. The maps seem to be identical, once corrected for orientation, with the difference that RO's map is more detailed as to the level of damage to the columns. What is marked red in sleazy's map, is usually marked yellow in RO's map.


mine is the official release, on the official release there is no straight line or even a remotely straight line that can be drawn that includes "red zone" damage trail between the impact zone and exit.  His cannot be found in the official release and therefore is not the official release and therefore it is garbage.  Need i really say more to that point?


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 297
RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible - 2/3/2007 9:35:29 AM   
tml721


Posts: 162
Joined: 11/28/2006
Status: offline 		Has anyone asked the number of DEAD TERRORISTS THERE ARE S INCE THE WAR BEGAN. Stop focusing on our dead and wounded and start focusing on the number of dead emenies we have!!!
Yes there's not ONE of our Brave men and women who don't deserve respect for what they've done. but let's see what ther ACTUAL ratio is on them vs US actually is!!!

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RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible - 2/3/2007 9:36:49 AM   
ModeratorEleven


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XI

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Profile   Post #: 299
RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible - 2/3/2007 9:51:51 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
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Status: offline 		It is approximately zero. Give or take 4....

Ron


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