RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible

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Real0ne -> RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible (1/27/2007 9:48:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Yes, let's do the pentagon argument(cruise missile, amazing). Got any websites to back up your assertions Real. I would enjoy knocking holes in your fantasies this weekend. Though perhaps that should be a new thread? well hmm.... ok.... Mine is quite simple really. where is the 757 debris? i have no site because i could not find any showing the debris. maybe you do.

Sinergy -> RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible (1/27/2007 10:28:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: sleazy quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne Evidence? Do you honestly believe a 153 foot airplane can fit into a 16 ft hole in the wall and then evaporate as the government would have us believe? Yeah, especially if the whole is a heap bigger than 16ft (clue, count the number of floor levels and realise that the ground, thats first to you americans, is obscured by spray from the fire tender, then look for a pic where the tender is not spraying across the frame) the big hole? Do show it to me please because i could not find a big hole I am not sure of the exact formula, but... Energy of an object impacting another object is a function of the relative velocities (Pentagone velociy is 0 wherease the plane was going 600 mph), the relative masses (Pentagon mass is lots whereas plane mass was not), impacting. When you have two objects impacting each other one ends up with heat and force. The plane impacting the Pentagon would generate a certain amount of impact energy, which would cause the airplane structure to flow, as opposed to cutting a cartoon outline of a plane. Occams Razor. Sinergy

Real0ne -> RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible (1/27/2007 11:07:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: sleazy quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne Evidence? Do you honestly believe a 153 foot airplane can fit into a 16 ft hole in the wall and then evaporate as the government would have us believe? Yeah, especially if the whole is a heap bigger than 16ft (clue, count the number of floor levels and realise that the ground, thats first to you americans, is obscured by spray from the fire tender, then look for a pic where the tender is not spraying across the frame) the big hole? Do show it to me please because i could not find a big hole I am not sure of the exact formula, but... Energy of an object impacting another object is a function of the relative velocities (Pentagone velociy is 0 wherease the plane was going 600 mph), the relative masses (Pentagon mass is lots whereas plane mass was not), impacting. When you have two objects impacting each other one ends up with heat and force. The plane impacting the Pentagon would generate a certain amount of impact energy, which would cause the airplane structure to flow, as opposed to cutting a cartoon outline of a plane. Occams Razor. Sinergy well i have no idea if that means you think a 757 hit it or not but since the government claims a 757 hit it then i only really need one question answered. Where is the plane? Max Occams Razor! LOL

luckydog1 -> RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible (1/28/2007 1:28:44 AM)
The plane smashed through 3 rings of the building. There were pictures of obvious plane derbis outside, though you have already declared them to be fake( they were in the PM article, but are plenty of other places also). Whatever wreckage reamined after the impact and fire( aluminum burns, try putting a can in a fire) ended up embeded in the inner ring. What makes no sense at all is the cruise missle theory. If it was a cruise missle it would have exploded making a crater and blowing derbis in all directions. What happened was an impact that went through a few rings of the building, and then a fire that collapsed a chunk of the outer ring, no explosion. If it had no payload, it would have made a much smaller hole, and not started a big fire. The idea it was a cruise missle is nonsensical. I am sure you got the idea from a website, lets see it.

sleazy -> RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible (1/28/2007 2:13:53 AM)
Real, Just go back, read the clue. The 16ft whole is NOT at ground level, at ground level the hole is considerably bigger, http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/evidence/photos/bluehi.html , and just to really put the icing on the cake, try a website that is normally anti-government and pro-conspiracy.... http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ppfinal.html Occams razor is used against all arguments, not just one. Scenario one Hundreds, possibly thousands of people, planners, particpants, and planted witnesses use a tomohawk or similar against a building. They also manage to truck in several tons of aircraft wreckage, cut down some lightpoles and generally mess up the surrounding area all without anybody noticing or one of those involved spilling the beans. Scenario two People fly a jetliner into the buidling. Occams razor states option 2 as being the most likely hypothesis. Let you into a little secret here, a group of people that would actually go to the extent of producing scenario one would undoubtedly realise that the best, and only truly viable way of producing an end result that looked like scenario two, would be to produce scenario two. Scenario two would require less participants and thus be less likely to suffer leaks, be they accidental or as a result of conscience, and a government that wasnt really that worried about innocent lives would have no compunctions about actually carrying out scenario two, it would be more secure, more realistic and for a captialist much cheaper too. Forget the emotion, apply some logic!

Real0ne -> RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible (1/28/2007 8:06:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 The plane smashed through 3 rings of the building. There were pictures of obvious plane derbis outside, though you have already declared them to be fake( they were in the PM article, but are plenty of other places also). Whatever wreckage reamined after the impact and fire( aluminum burns, try putting a can in a fire) ended up embeded in the inner ring. 1). i only asked for the plane debris. 2). i never said it was fake. If i did site it please? 3). My metallurgy data sheet claims aluminum does not support combustion. 4). i have never seen aluminum burn and i am unable to get my cheap aluminum frying pans to burn. a) Please reference the debris that you assert are from a 757. b) Since your statement about aluminum burning disagrees with both my experience with aluminum and since your assertion also disagrees with my metallurgy handbook data please show your references that support your statement. c) Further: since 6061-T6 aircraft alloy has a higher melting temperature than pure aluminum, please reference that melting temperature and burning temperature if it exists. d) please note the appearance and physical size of the turbine blade that the man is standing beside. e) please give a full explanation where the tiny turbine blade in the debris as seen below http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/mystery_engine_s.jpg is supposed to be mounted in this 757 turbine? http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/757side.jpg http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/757tailcone.jpg http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/757Front.jpg Note the tail cone size as compared to the step ladder as referenced against the turbine found on the site compared to the mans leg. f) please point out where the mystery turbine fits on a 757 engine.

Real0ne -> RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible (1/28/2007 8:35:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sleazy Real, Just go back, read the clue. The 16ft whole is NOT at ground level, at ground level the hole is considerably bigger, http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/evidence/photos/bluehi.html , and just to really put the icing on the cake, try a website that is normally anti-government and pro-conspiracy.... http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ppfinal.html Please put a pic in the paint program and mark exactly where the impact hole is or reference a pic and use text to describe exactly where the impact hole is prior to the collapse of the building so we both are looking at the same exact thing for this discussion. Once we make sure we are talking about the same thing then it makes sense to start the debate.

sleazy -> RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible (1/28/2007 8:53:10 AM)
Link2, the section titled PICTURES OF THE PENTAGON IMPACT AREA BEFORE THE COLLAPSE. In the second picture the impact area of the aircraft has been roughly outlined.

Real0ne -> RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible (1/28/2007 9:15:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sleazy Link2, the section titled PICTURES OF THE PENTAGON IMPACT AREA BEFORE THE COLLAPSE. In the second picture the impact area of the aircraft has been roughly outlined. ok so this is what you want to use as the impact area? http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/pentagon_precollapse-marked.jpg

sleazy -> RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible (1/28/2007 9:30:31 AM)
Seems reasonably suitable, now draw a 757 in that hole, bearing in mind the follow points. The angle of impact was not perpendicular to the wall. Wings are pretty insubstanial (hell the entire thing is built as light and weak as possible) and will turn to "confetti", as well as having inherent weakness designed in to allow them to fracture in the event of an un-controlled return to ground level. The only real areas of density in a loaded aircraft are the fuselage and its contents (app 13ft diameter for a 757 - wow, I just remember some basic maths, a 13ft diameter tube will fit through a 16 foot hole!) and the powerplants. I could come up with hundreds of links that are pro-757, however I suspect it would be a wasted effort and not something that is relevant to the thread at hand as well as potentially annoying other readers. If you are really open to debate, go search and make your own choices

Real0ne -> RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible (1/28/2007 11:32:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sleazy Seems reasonably suitable, now draw a 757 in that hole, bearing in mind the follow points. The angle of impact was not perpendicular to the wall. Wings are pretty insubstanial (hell the entire thing is built as light and weak as possible) and will turn to "confetti", as well as having inherent weakness designed in to allow them to fracture in the event of an un-controlled return to ground level. The only real areas of density in a loaded aircraft are the fuselage and its contents (app 13ft diameter for a 757 - wow, I just remember some basic maths, a 13ft diameter tube will fit through a 16 foot hole!) and the powerplants. I could come up with hundreds of links that are pro-757, however I suspect it would be a wasted effort and not something that is relevant to the thread at hand as well as potentially annoying other readers. If you are really open to debate, go search and make your own choices i have already made my choices and determinations on the pentagon so for me its finding the resources i already have in my mess of resources LOL ok so now you are agreeing that it is a 16ft hole? What are you saying then and where do you stand on this now? about what angle then did the plane impact? If the OP wants this to go in another thread speak up and we can certainly take it there but i think this is the OP's point, and i dont think it violates topic to discuss matters to make that point.

sleazy -> RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible (1/28/2007 12:06:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne i have already made my choices and determinations on the pentagon so for me its finding the resources i already have in my mess of resources LOL Well that sort of makes further discussion pointless in many respects [:)] quote: ok so now you are agreeing that it is a 16ft hole? Nope, the upper section of the hole is approximately 16' wide quote: What are you saying then and where do you stand on this now? about what angle then did the plane impact? I stand by least hypothesis, the pentagon was hit and damaged by an aircraft that was the size of a 757, powered by Rolls Royce turbine engines of the same type that power a 757 and that same aircraft contained many other components that would be found on a 757 and looked like a 757 in American Airlines livery to many witnesses. See where this is going yet? Angle of impact is approximately 45 degrees (+/- 5) quote: If the OP wants this to go in another thread speak up and we can certainly take it there but i think this is the OP's point, and i dont think it violates topic to discuss matters to make that point.

Real0ne -> RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible (1/28/2007 12:16:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sleazy Well that sort of makes further discussion pointless in many respects Nope, the upper section of the hole is approximately 16' wide I stand by least hypothesis, the pentagon was hit and damaged by an aircraft that was the size of a 757, powered by Rolls Royce turbine engines of the same type that power a 757 and that same aircraft contained many other components that would be found on a 757 and looked like a 757 in American Airlines livery to many witnesses. See where this is going yet? Angle of impact is approximately 45 degrees (+/- 5) Not at all, if you can show my determinations incorrect i will stand corrected. well in order to debate we need to dimension everything and come to an understanding so we know what we are debating. Ok and you agree it had rolls or equivalent engines used on all the passenger class boeing 757's ok so we have about 45 deg angle of impact then, the upper section then is 16 ft wide and how high is the upper section off of the ground it in feet? That is how high is the upper section damage, the hole, prior to the collapse.

Sunshine119 -> RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible (1/28/2007 12:21:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: I don't dispute that we may be interested in the oil, but we are not terrorists. A terrorists are a person, group, or organization that uses violence and fear for the purpose of political, religious, or ideological pursuasion. We are a legitimate government. So as long as someone is legitimately in charge of a government, they cannot be a terrorist... It is ok to scare the shit out of people as long as you have a constitution which allows it... omg how evil is that? Who said the Constitution supports any of the illegitimate actions of this current government? Last time I looked, "W" and his possy were losing case after case in the Supreme Court!

sleazy -> RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible (1/28/2007 12:34:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne Not at all, if you can show my determinations incorrect i will stand corrected. Fair enough, my initial supporting data has already been linked in a previous post, all other sources I may quote are in broad agreement with these two (that were picked at pretty much random from page 1 of a google search) quote: well in order to debate we need to dimension everything and come to an understanding so we know what we are debating. Pretty sure one or both of those links contain verifiable dimensions of a 757, if not I know many other pro-757 sites contain such measurements quote: Ok and you agree it had rolls or equivalent engines used on all the passenger class boeing 757's RB211 off the top of my head, again the powerplants are referenced in my earlier links quote: ok so we have about 45 deg angle of impact then, the upper section then is 16 ft wide and how high is the upper section off of the ground it in feet? That is how high is the upper section damage, the hole, prior to the collapse. Without doing a search on the interweb, but working on basic building practices the upper segment of the hole (I shall now use the US system of floor numbering namely that the floor at ground level is floor 1, the next that would normally be the 1st floor to me is floor 2 etc) app 16ft wide on floor 2 would be approximately 10 ft from structural ground (not necessarily grass level)

Real0ne -> RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible (1/28/2007 12:56:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sleazy quote: ok so we have about 45 deg angle of impact then, the upper section then is 16 ft wide and how high is the upper section off of the ground it in feet? That is how high is the upper section damage, the hole, prior to the collapse. Without doing a search on the interweb, but working on basic building practices the upper segment of the hole (I shall now use the US system of floor numbering namely that the floor at ground level is floor 1, the next that would normally be the 1st floor to me is floor 2 etc) app 16ft wide on floor 2 would be approximately 10 ft from structural ground (not necessarily grass level) ok that sounds about right 10 feet to 12 max. So we can say the upper damage is 22feet high then is that what we will agree to? So 22ft high, 16 ft wide for the main hole, 45Deg, rolls 757 engines and the red shaded area in the pic for impact damage as the criteris for this discussion that we will both agree too is that correct?

sleazy -> RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible (1/28/2007 1:19:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne So 22ft high, 16 ft wide for the main hole, 45Deg, rolls 757 engines and the red shaded area in the pic for impact damage as the criteris for this discussion that we will both agree too is that correct? I would say a hole of app 90x12, with an extentsion of app 16x10 in roughly the centre of the upper edge. Please note I am now working from memory as I am currently in an area with restricted net access. Now in an attempt to forestall a whole heap of dusty maths & physics and googling for long lost links (that may be restricted by the policy here), let us try a hypothetical situation with you in a position of power within the inner circles of government........ You mission should you choose to accept it........... Convince the gullible masses that an airliner (a boeing 757 belonging to american airlines for the sake of argument) has impacted a building well known to the public. Criteria 1. Collateral damage (military and civilian casualties) are expected and authourised, but should be kept to a reasonable limit 2. Secrecy is paramount. Nobody must ever let the truth out, that means ensuring that all conspirators, and planted witnesses if required, must stick to the official line until beyond their graves. Of course none should obviously show an increase in financial wealth that cannot be accounted for by means of network interview fees. It should not need saying that a number of unusual deaths or dissapearances are not a smart policy 3. Budget is to all intents and purposes is unlimited, however a $Xmillion budget would of course be more favourable than a budget of X x10 million dollars. Now seriously and logically, what is the most efficient way of producing the desired outcome? (This is not to say I believe or not believe the government were behind the act, but that if they were the only intelligent way of producing such an illusion is to make it real)

Real0ne -> RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible (1/28/2007 1:34:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sleazy quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne So 22ft high, 16 ft wide for the main hole, 45Deg, rolls 757 engines and the red shaded area in the pic for impact damage as the criteris for this discussion that we will both agree too is that correct? I would say a hole of app 90x12, with an extentsion of app 16x10 in roughly the centre of the upper edge. Please note I am now working from memory as I am currently in an area with restricted net access. ok so are we going with the red shaded area as you directed me to earlier? or are you changing it to 90 ft wide? Now i just looked at the building and i do not see damage above the second story, So since i have it handy here is a pic illustrating that: http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/Pentagondamagepoint.jpg so 16ft wide hole by ______ high then?

sleazy -> RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible (1/28/2007 1:48:39 PM)
here goes an attempt at some ascii art b _ _________\| \|_______ _c \|__________________\| _d e b = app 16ft c = 1 storey (app 10 ft) d = 1 storey (app 10 ft) e = app 90ft NB, I am only using 16 feet as the figure you supplied (although it is not unreasonable), I havent actually looked for any independent figure, 90ft is from memory and very rough guesswork, I am sure there will be more accurate figures out there on the interweb

Real0ne -> RE: Hold the true terrorists responsible (1/28/2007 1:53:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sleazy here goes an attempt at some ascii art b _ _________\| \|_______ _c \|__________________\| _d e b = app 16ft c = 1 storey (app 10 ft) d = 1 storey (app 10 ft) e = app 90ft NB, I am only using 16 feet as the figure you supplied (although it is not unreasonable), I havent actually looked for any independent figure, 90ft is from memory and very rough guesswork, I am sure there will be more accurate figures out there on the interweb 16w x 22h hole, 90 ft wide damage then at some undetermined height then for the 90 ft waide part of it?

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