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Tearing a man down - 3/3/2005 11:15:49 PM

mantis65

Posts: 456
Joined: 12/27/2004
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Here’s something I am torn on …..
I don’t except people to agree whether its good or bad just want to see how Dommes and subs feel about this?
Some of my Woman friends are Female Supremacists that feel men are inferior to themselves. They never have had much of a conflict with me since they know I am submissive I guess they figure I know my place.

Anyway my thought was about something LadyAngelika said. I couldn’t find her exact quote but it’s similar to:

Some woman need to make the male sub feel inferior so they can feel superior to them.

Ands something LadyTantalize said has been haunting me:

I've seen. A type of "institutionalizing" occurs in which the sub becomes either infantile, robotic or zombie-like from being constantly "dehumanized or and devalued.

The drone like dependency sounds sexy to me on a twisted fantasy level but I know I would never want to experience this level of submission in real life.

Anyway I love the idea of humiliation and being reduced in status.
I myself feel I for some reason a need to be reduced in status somewhat.

So heres my question how much of the slaves/ subs self estem do you damage if at all? and how far is too far to go with tearing down his self image?
mantis

< Message edited by mantis65 -- 3/3/2005 11:49:31 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: Tearing a man down - 3/3/2005 11:26:09 PM

MadameDahlia

Posts: 2021
Joined: 8/11/2004
From: SoCal aka Hell
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I tease... I torment... I humiliate. But when I say to someone, "you silly slut!" I don't mean for them to keep that feeling. Once I'm done with a scene I pull the other person close, cuddle them and talk about the scene - what was good, bad, weird, fun, wrong... what made their head spin, their heart soar...

I don't tear down self-esteem. Others may wish to. But in my none too humble opinion tearing down someone's self esteem is like being a bully... a monster... an abusive cretin.

Why would I want someone I care about to feel pathetic or unloved?

_____________________________

Insanity -- a perfectly rational adjustment to an insane world.
--R. D. Laing

"Oh, but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away."

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RE: Tearing a man down - 3/3/2005 11:44:12 PM

mantis65

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hello MadameDahlia
I like your idea I want to be reduced in status myself but still be like liked, loved or useful to a Domme. A harsh mistress but still a friend
I would imagine some (not all) Dommes may lose respect for a sub on some level.
This craving for humiliation maybe just the masochist in me wanting some form of suffering.
But I thought it was an interesting question to pose. Like I said I have mixed feelings on this humiliation and degradation. Like everything else I would think moderation is the key.
Anyway I realize this thread is going to draw some very strong opinions so let me just say I wanted to ask an interesting question not upset people.

I am looking for peoples thoughts on this more than a single answer.
mantis

< Message edited by mantis65 -- 3/3/2005 11:45:28 PM >

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RE: Tearing a man down - 3/3/2005 11:53:19 PM

BlkTallFullfig

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Joined: 6/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mantis65
But I thought it was an interesting question to pose. Like I said I have mixed feelings on this humiliation and degradation. Like everything else I would moderation is the key.
mantis

Dear Mantis,
I'm glad you brought this up, as this is one thing I've had real life experience with. I was dating/getting to know a "slave" as he called himself, but there was some serious whining/bratty behavior on his part; anyway he expressed a strong desire in being verbally humiliated in scene, so oblige I did, because I'm a considerate babe like that, lol,
but afterwords he'd reiterate some of what was said, and act hurt. So, while I feel it's a nice thought for play, most people are hurt by words, and I'm not sure it's a good idea for long term emotional health.

I personally like submission from someone who is strong and does it of his own free will, not forced/coerced by me, but I'm not into breaking anyone down; the only times I will tear someone down is if I feel he is attempting to destroy my ego/spirit, but generally those types of people don't stay in my life for long. M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

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RE: Tearing a man down - 3/4/2005 5:25:58 AM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mantis65
Anyway my thought was about something LadyAngelika said. I couldn’t find her exact quote but it’s similar to:

Some woman need to make the male sub feel inferior so they can feel superior to them.

Very close! What I said in that post was:

Some women need to see men as worthless in order to elevate themselves. I elevate myself in knowing that I'm making them stronger. Neither is better then the other, just different approaches.

quote:

So heres my question how much of the slaves/ subs self estem do you damage if at all? and how far is too far to go with tearing down his self image?
mantis

Like Dahlia said, the humiliation and tearing down happens in context of play. Now where it gets complicated for me is "when does play start and when does it end". It isn't that cut & dry for me. There always is a little teasing/torture going on, sometimes playing into verbal humiliation. My submissives also know that I do have a lot of respect for them deep down inside, if not only for the simple fact that I wouldn't bother spending any time with them if I didn't. Sometimes I'll call them "whore boy" or "espèce de petit salop!" (yeah, it sounds hot in French) but it gets balanced out with "good boy" or "good doggy" which teeters on kindness/humiliation. Damn I like to mess with their minds!

My goal isn't to damage their self-esteems. My goal is actually to tear them down to build them up again, but in a way different then what they've been built up for in the past, rewarding different parts of them if that makes sense. I think of one of my boys. He has tons of people waiting on him everyday because of his career. People want to get close to him not because of who he is but because of the doors he can open for them. He knows that when he is with me, that isn't an issue. He actually gets off on very strong humiliation play and I've taken it further with him then I have with anyone else before. (In a sense, being with him has made me grow stronger). After a strong moment, he looks whiped out, destroyed... and slowly I build him back up again as a man he is at the core of himself, not as an symbol of opportunity like most others see him. I don't tear down his self-image. I get him to look at another side of himself that he hasn't been in touch with or has forgotten.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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Post #: 5

RE: Tearing a man down - 3/4/2005 7:24:39 AM

mantis65

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quote:

Like Dahlia said, the humiliation and tearing down happens in context of play. Now where it gets complicated for me is "when does play start and when does it end". It isn't that cut & dry for me.

This is all going to depended on the Domme’s and sub’s personalities also I guess also. So everyone is going to have different ideas about this I bet. I like the tearing down to build back up idea

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 6

RE: Tearing a man down - 3/4/2005 9:12:53 AM

LadyTantalize

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Great evolution going here, mantis!!

I'm not aligned with Female Supremacy as I've met just as many stupid women as I have stupid men. I do not believe in supremacy of anyone over another.

I am a bit in line with the thoughts of Elise Sutton, in that I feel, and it's been in My experience that MANY men, not all but many, either top or bottom, Dom or sub, do often crave periods of "loving female authority".

http://www.elisesutton.homestead.com/Main.html

Anyway, the type of scenarios discussed in that bizarre other thread invoking the thoughts of mantis are viable areas to explore if done properly. For Me, it's all more individualized and specific to who I am dealing with......and if the "dehumanizing scene" is a professional or a personal one, and if the relationship is light or long-term.

I "objectify" My boy-toy often (coffee table, foot-stool, etc.) and this type of of debasing activitiy has no poor effects, in My experience as long as followed by periods of My expressing that he has value to Me. A tit for tat type experience - footstool that matters not to boy that truly does.

I have someone I see regularly and have for four years in which extreme verbal humiliation, degradation, objection as well as verbal and simulated emasculation are all involved in our sessions. We've built the trust over time and with great degree of communication. But, I will confess to there being a few rocky times, especially in the beginning, which I thought he might experience (or already had) some mental issues and/or problems. But, over time, we grew to know each other and know that we could explore such areas to great lengths due to the trust. But, he knows his place in My life and he does not look to Me for an excessive amount of emotional support of revalueing as he is a corporate hoo-haa, so his ego inflates automatcially when he goes back to the real world. Sort of a "balancing act" for the typical male who harbors inner submission and subservience but must be the "power-broker" and bread-winner in the real world.

As for the "zombie-state" experienced - it can have terrible and tragic results but if done properly, respectfully and in a SANE manner - such deep, edgy areas can be explored. But, some Doms/Dommes do exist who thrive on such dehumanizing tactics as I've experienced such first hand. Often "emotional vampires" who strive on the destruction on others - they are so frightening as they are real - hence, being cynical, observant, intiutive and careful are all important to surviving in the world of BDSM!!

_____________________________

Truly, Lady T.

Lady Tatiana Tantalize
Atlanta's Sadistic Southern Belle, Crossdressing Consultant, Punk-Rock Party Girl and Wicked SugarPuss
http://www.ladytantalize.net

"A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages."
-Tennessee William

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RE: Tearing a man down - 3/4/2005 10:09:29 AM

mantis65

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I am attracted to the darker Dommes and I have be careful of how much my of myself I want to actually “lose”. The emotional vampires phrase describes the sort of woman i am very attracted to. Sometimes I worry about how much of my masochistic side is driven by a self destructive urge?
Then again I am also semi obsessed with being liked by the Domme on some level so hopeful I can balance it out and not be driven by pure masochistic fantasy in to a miserable real life situation I would come to regret.
mantis

< Message edited by mantis65 -- 3/4/2005 10:10:41 AM >

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RE: Tearing a man down - 3/4/2005 1:03:54 PM

SweetDommes

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For us, we aren't into tearing any one down. Yeah, there are some things that we will do along the lines of name calling, but to act as if someone is worthless, even if just an act during a scene - not for us. We want our boys to know that we value them, and the one that we currently have would probably leave if he thought for even a few moments that we didn't value him.

Just from my standpoint though, even if that was something that both enjoyed, I can't imagine having a scene like that without the aftercare that Dahlia described - because what Domme would want something that she truly felt was worthless, and what person could live in a situation for very long where they felt worthless (I would imagine that it would lead to an ending of the relationship - or worse, the death of one or the other partner, depending on whether the sub got suicidal or murderous ... as I have seen in "vanila" relationships where one made the other feel worthless)

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RE: Tearing a man down - 3/4/2005 1:40:13 PM

WulfMan

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From what I can tell, most Mistresses use the good ole boot camp technic if they do tear the submissive down. Which is you tear them down and build them back up into something better. As for me I don't think that I'm inferior just because I'm a man, I think we are on an equal statis, to a point. Just my thoughts.
(ment for reply to mantis)

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RE: Tearing a man down - 3/4/2005 1:49:14 PM

mantis65

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Joined: 12/27/2004
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quote:

From what I can tell, most Mistresses use the good ole boot camp technic if they do tear the submissive down. Which is you tear them down and build them back up into something better. As for me I don't think that I'm inferior just because I'm a man, I think we are on an equal statis, to a point. Just my thoughts.
(ment for reply to mantis)

yes i like this idea lot of the bootcamp idea so i can be reshaped or Conditioned to serve her needs. i dont want to feel Completely worthless or despised by her.

I want to be something less than her but useful and liked..Weird I know. It’s hard to put into words the need inside me sometimes especially typing it out. its hard to come across exactly how I feel about this.
mantis

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RE: Tearing a man down - 3/4/2005 1:59:32 PM

WulfMan

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Yeah, I think I know what you are getting at. Not exactly easy to put into words though.

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RE: Tearing a man down - 3/4/2005 2:26:23 PM

mantis65

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Joined: 12/27/2004
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quote:

Yeah, I think I know what you are getting at. Not exactly easy to put into words though.

And most of the time I can state things pretty plain about how I feel, but this feeling is very hard to put into words I don’t want to use words like “self destructive” because its not about going that far. Its about some sort of need for denial very hard to explain in words for me with out making it sound negative.
mantis

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RE: Tearing a man down - 3/4/2005 5:20:49 PM

sting516

Posts: 505
Joined: 9/4/2004
From: long island, ny
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the boot camp dynamic is something i've thought about...i've always thought of myself as one who in the vanilla life has much untapped potential...in part because of a lack of personal discipline...the boot camp idea is one way to make someone refocus...though i've often thought that isolation and imprisonment would also be effective...as one would after time truly wish to do whatever was necessary not to be left alone...i think it would take a slave and give the Domme a true chance to mold him to Her desires.

Of course, i could be wrong.

sting

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Post #: 14

RE: Tearing a man down - 3/4/2005 5:25:26 PM

WulfMan

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I don't know about that isolation and imprisoment one. I went through escape and evasion, and some POW training, the kind were they are allowed to break at least one bone. They broke my leg. All it really does is makes you pissed off and want to resist even more, but maybe that's just me.

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RE: Tearing a man down - 3/5/2005 1:17:10 AM

MsSilvie

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I have to admit, it's a compelling feeling at times, to completely break someone down, make them helpless and pathetic and just plain hurt them. And I've talked with enough male subs that have the complimentry desire, to be taken down in status.

For me at least, it's one of those places that you may like to visit, but wouldn't want to live. Finding a partner that you can do this safely with probably isn't easy. Absolute power is a heady and corrupting thing. Some people really shouldn't have that kind of power. If it's a dominant who NEEDS to make him or herself feel superior by making the submissive inferior, to me, that sounds like a situation that potentially gets out of everyone's control very easily. Not a pretty sight.

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RE: Tearing a man down - 3/5/2005 11:44:04 AM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WulfMan
I don't know about that isolation and imprisoment one. I went through escape and evasion, and some POW training, the kind were they are allowed to break at least one bone. They broke my leg. All it really does is makes you pissed off and want to resist even more, but maybe that's just me.

Yow! I love love love POW play. I actually once had a boy who was ex-military and had been captured once or twice in 20 years. I had to go slowly with him and really get inside his mind, but the POW play was so hot. I didn't break his legs thought. I did threaten to cut off his medals with scissors which had his flaring at the nostrils.

And yes Dayton, this was a CANADIAN soldier!

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: Tearing a man down - 3/5/2005 12:04:39 PM

mantis65

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I was never in the service but POW and interrogation scenes fascinate me.
I have had fantasies of this but never really played them out as a scene.
Besides getting caught and tortured by the cruel Woman enemy agent/ soldier I never gave the escape part much thought. I loved too many James bond villainesses I guess.

I’m sure to a person who has had military training and conditioning this would seem much different. Their responses I would assume would be automatic to try to escape.

This also reminds me of what used to upset me about those old B-movies with Amazons.
A group of men get captured by the Amazons and one guy gets the bright idea to try to get them all to escape. I tell them to go first and I will catch up later…
mantis

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RE: Tearing a man down - 3/5/2005 12:12:38 PM

WulfMan

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But but but there is no such thing as a canadian soldier, they're all mounties. Hahahahaha

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RE: Tearing a man down - 3/5/2005 12:20:06 PM

mantis65

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when i lived in another part of my state i saw lots canadian Woman fighter pilots that would train down there at the air station.
love women in uniforms !
mantis

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Post #: 20

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