RE: A Rational Submissive?

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becca333 -> RE: A Rational Submissive? (7/3/2007 1:44:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross Again, you're listening to what all these people say- but how many of them are in long term stable healthy relationships? More than three years count as long term? I think you need to be rational to survive for any length of time in this kind of relationship. A sense of humour helps, too.

julietsierra -> RE: A Rational Submissive? (7/3/2007 3:19:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Quivver It’s been the rational Me that’s kept heart ache to a minimum when dealing with the Wankers and the rational Me who gave up Good relationships due to things that just couldn’t fit. Interesting what one can see when a thread has been brought back to life a few months later. Here's another idea: What if.... Rationality is taken to an extreme and in the name of "rationality," one's fears of the work involved in a relationship convince the person to drop someone that might actually be good for them? Herein lies the obvious question. Is that rationality or by allowing fear to rule, is that irrationality in an otherwise rational person? I honestly don't think there's ever been a "perfect" relationship. No one has ever matched EXACTLY with the person they've teamed up with. They've come close - darn close - but it's never exact. To be exact ("perfect") the two people would have to be clones or something along those lines and aside from the illegality of that, it's just not going to happen. So, I think that even in a rational person, irrationality can reign when it comes to relationship work. I know this person. He is looking for his perfect woman. He's met a number of truly beautiful women throughout his life, beautiful both inside and out. And with each one of them he always finds things that are "wrong." He says things like "she'd be perfect if she was a bit lighter, heavier, darker, lighter, her hair was longer, shorter, a different color, she liked this, didn't like that, did this, didn't do that, was professionally employed, stayed at home, etc etc etc." There's ALWAYS a reason that this or that or the other woman won't work for him. Each and every time he says whatever his issue with whatever woman he's seeing is, he sounds rational - entirely rational. However, the fact remains that NO ONE could fit what he wants because no one ever will. He's not looking for perfection. In a human being, he's had that on more than one occasion. Truth be told, he's afraid of being hurt, so finds a reason to drop them before they drop him - even if dropping never entered anyone's mind other than his. His train of thought is "she's great, but what if this isn't the one and there's someone else out there that is?" Given the fact that this man is not a young man anymore and has been doing this his entire life, I'm thinking that he's probably come across "perfection" many times, but each time, his irrational fear has incited him to create "rational" reasons for walking away from whatever relationship he's been in. There simply comes a time when "rationality" becomes "irrational" and because the excuses are so darn rational, no one really sees how irrational they all are. If you've been in numerous good relationships and walked away from each because something "just couldn't fit," perhaps what couldn't fit was the rational idea that everyone has things that just do not fit with the other person, but those things CAN be what makes the relationship darn special instead of the irrational idea that if this one thing doesn't work, you should throw the entire baby out with the bathwater and start all over again looking for that entirely rational dominant. THAT is the height of irrationality. juliet

becca333 -> RE: A Rational Submissive? (7/3/2007 5:28:50 AM)
But isn't it rational to take an irrational risk sometimes?

julietsierra -> RE: A Rational Submissive? (7/3/2007 6:50:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: becca333 But isn't it rational to take an irrational risk sometimes? I've read a number of your responses to different threads and you often seem to miss the point. You've missed the point in my response once again. I didn't say anyone was taking an irrational risk. In fact, I said it's the height of irrationality to NOT take a rational risk and then in effort to rationalize fear, to find something wrong with every relationship entered into that makes running away sound so darned rational. Now, before you answer, pause a moment and contemplate that last sentence and let me give you an analogy. If I am a hundred (or more) times larger than an itsy bitsy spider and can stomp on it in a second, but instead, want to run screaming to the hills when I see a spider on the carpet, I have two choices. I can acknowledge my fear but still do what's necessary and stomp on the spider (a rational response) or I can rationalize my fear, saying "well, y'know, spiders can be poisonous and I was worried that it'd crawl up my leg if I tried to stomp on it, and honestly, I've heard there are places up there in the hills where there are no spiders.(a rational sounding cover-up of an irrational response). And all the explanations in the world of "but I'm so rational" won't change the fact that the spider is still in the house. Someone can want a relationship and actually find someone in which their interactions are good, but when the work of the relationship becomes difficult or the vulnerability felt in the relationship becomes too scary, they have two choices. They can acknowledge their fear and move forward, seeing what the relationship will bring, or they can run for the hills and rationalize their fear by saying "this wasn't right or that wasn't right or some other stuff like that - which is really kind of irrational even though it sure does SOUND rational The response is the same. juliet

AquaticSub -> RE: A Rational Submissive? (7/3/2007 10:25:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Quivver Does being rational and submissive work? Sure. You just have to find an owner who appreciates it. It's one of the many reasons I love Valyraen.

AquaticSub -> RE: A Rational Submissive? (7/3/2007 10:29:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: becca333 quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross Again, you're listening to what all these people say- but how many of them are in long term stable healthy relationships? More than three years count as long term? I think you need to be rational to survive for any length of time in this kind of relationship. A sense of humour helps, too. Hmm... does over a year and half count? I know it's not very long (yet) we are certainly seem to be stable, healthy and looking towards the future. [:)]

Domspaintoy -> RE: A Rational Submissive? (7/3/2007 10:57:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Quivver Does being rational and submissive work? i dont think i have a rational bone in my body, certainly not within my submission anyway and Master would probably agree with me for once, i would suggest Master is what keeps me rational or puts my irrational, rational. grin dpt. X

salilus -> RE: A Rational Submissive? (7/3/2007 1:19:51 PM)
I think I am a very rational/logical person. I like things to make sense; I want to know the 'why' of things, most of the time. Daddy has worked with me on this because he is a patient and understanding man - sometimes I get to know the 'why', sometimes I don't... but it's always okay because we've gotten to that place slowly and sometimes the 'why' no longer matters. Other people, in the past, have not gotten me there nor was I willing to get there. In the past, most dominants I knew just saw my logic, intelligence, and capabilities an annoyance. I even had one dominant turn me down because I 'didn't need rescuing' (basically, I was sane and capable and therefore didn't need to be owned O.o). I also never thought I would be able to 'feel' the things I heard other submissive people speak of - that magic you speak of. I do understand the 'magic' now, but again, it came after some time, the right person, and my willingness to let go of control, even if the only 'why' of it is because Daddy wishes it. (I'm sorry for how badly the above reads, but it was a bit difficult to find generic terms for 'things I've been through' without yammering on for ages about myself) I think being rational would only be a hindrance if the dominant does not know how to handle intelligence and questions and such or if you were to use your rationality as an excuse as to why you just couldn't do one thing or another.

TemptingNviceSub -> RE: A Rational Submissive? (7/3/2007 5:25:08 PM)
The only stumbling block I see on being rational, is that it makes you more cautious,and you also see things with a clearer head.You do not rush in with fools,and possibly it makes you a wee bit more choosier...You do not find yourself in and out of relationships with amazing frequecy...The other side of that coin is that, your lonelier,maybe do not arrange introductions often,and you are brutally honest with yourself and any potential about what you seek, you do not go into the convince yourelf mode ,that you can change him or yourself to any great extent...And face it a rational submissive does not arouse that knight in shining armor thing that some Dominants crave or that protective syndrome..sighs...Good or bad it is not..it just simply is....Tempting..~I think I need some chocolate~

sublimelysensual -> RE: A Rational Submissive? (7/3/2007 5:53:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TemptingNviceSub The only stumbling block I see on being rational, is that it makes you more cautious,and you also see things with a clearer head.You do not rush in with fools,and possibly it makes you a wee bit more choosier...You do not find yourself in and out of relationships with amazing frequecy...The other side of that coin is that, your lonelier,maybe do not arrange introductions often,and you are brutally honest with yourself and any potential about what you seek, you do not go into the convince yourelf mode ,that you can change him or yourself to any great extent...And face it a rational submissive does not arouse that knight in shining armor thing that some Dominants crave or that protective syndrome..sighs...Good or bad it is not..it just simply is....Tempting..~I think I need some chocolate~ Thank you, tempting..I've looked over this thread a couple of times today waiting to see if this was going to come up, as I think it's a very valid point. Just like quite a few s-types have a history of some type of abuse in the past, quite a few Dom/mes do seem to have rescuer/protector tendencies. I don't necessarily think it's that Dom/mes go looking for someone who's irrational, more that they meet someone with whatever type of issues and go into "knight-protector" role with the person without necessarily realizing that's what happening until they're full-on involved and in a place that it's hard to extricate themselves from. I think we tend to forget sometimes that Dom/mes are just as human as the rest of us, with all the flaws, imperfections, etc, that all of us suffer from. Just my two cents, as always... -a

Quivver -> RE: A Rational Submissive? (7/3/2007 6:20:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TemptingNviceSub The only stumbling block I see on being rational, is that it makes you more cautious,and you also see things with a clearer head.You do not rush in with fools,and possibly it makes you a wee bit more choosier...You do not find yourself in and out of relationships with amazing frequecy...The other side of that coin is that, your lonelier,maybe do not arrange introductions often,and you are brutally honest with yourself and any potential about what you seek, you do not go into the convince yourelf mode ,that you can change him or yourself to any great extent...And face it a rational submissive does not arouse that knight in shining armor thing that some Dominants crave or that protective syndrome..sighs...Good or bad it is not..it just simply is....Tempting..~I think I need some chocolate~ I think you nailed it. Wanna share the chocolate? [:o]

RoseforYou -> RE: A Rational Submissive? (7/3/2007 8:57:13 PM)
This is my first posting after "lurking" for a while, reading many posts. Quivver, you have asked the question i have asked of myself numerous times. As I dont present outwardly as "needing a knight in shining armor", perhaps I have inadvertently taken myself out of the game. I am extremely self sufficient, have always supported myself, have a nice career, own my own place etc, etc, etc. So, because I dont present that way outwardly, it looks like I would not NEED anyone.......yet I do! Because I have my sh** together, and am not an emotional basket case, this does not mean that I dont need structure, strength, and guidance of another. It's hard to get these thoughts of mine conveyed properly; I do, however, appreciate your post!

becca333 -> RE: A Rational Submissive? (7/4/2007 1:21:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: julietsierra quote: ORIGINAL: becca333 But isn't it rational to take an irrational risk sometimes? I've read a number of your responses to different threads and you often seem to miss the point. You've missed the point in my response once again. I didn't say anyone was taking an irrational risk. In fact, I said it's the height of irrationality to NOT take a rational risk and then in effort to rationalize fear, to find something wrong with every relationship entered into that makes running away sound so darned rational. I bow to your wisdom. You've made your point very clearly. I'll go stomp a spider.

TemptingNviceSub -> RE: A Rational Submissive? (7/4/2007 10:15:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Quivver quote: ORIGINAL: TemptingNviceSub The only stumbling block I see on being rational, is that it makes you more cautious,and you also see things with a clearer head.You do not rush in with fools,and possibly it makes you a wee bit more choosier...You do not find yourself in and out of relationships with amazing frequecy...The other side of that coin is that, your lonelier,maybe do not arrange introductions often,and you are brutally honest with yourself and any potential about what you seek, you do not go into the convince yourelf mode ,that you can change him or yourself to any great extent...And face it a rational submissive does not arouse that knight in shining armor thing that some Dominants crave or that protective syndrome..sighs...Good or bad it is not..it just simply is....Tempting..~I think I need some chocolate~ I think you nailed it. Wanna share the chocolate? [:o] Absolutely!...peanut butter cups? or Flipz (chocolate covered pretzels)?..[8D]...Tempting

robertolapiedra -> RE: A Rational Submissive? (7/4/2007 2:58:13 PM)
Hello Quivver. Yes. Being a rational dom works too. "Irrationnal" submissives and dominants are not very desired in longterm "anything". "If" (I said "if"!) you attribute "your" lack of success to your being "rational", I would tend to say you are mistaking. To be successful, you would need to be irrational? I would look for another cause, if another cause really exits. It took a lot of people here a very long time to find their long term mates. Most waited years. I find people who "rationalize" everything to their personnal view can be a problem. But is that a rational way of being? especially in a relationship? I think when you analyse "Magic", it actually disolves into "rationalizations". There are some good things in life that are not rational. Love is the best example. RL

Quivver -> RE: A Rational Submissive? (7/4/2007 4:59:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: robertolapiedra I think when you analyse "Magic", it actually disolves into "rationalizations". There are some good things in life that are not rational. Love is the best example. RL I have spent much too much time trying to rationalize Magic and the Great Chemist. The white flag is waving, I surrender. It is what it is. [:)]

briska -> RE: A Rational Submissive? (7/4/2007 11:30:09 PM)
quote: Is rationality a barrier to submission? I rationalize my own submission in that I want to make Sir happy, because it makes me happy. The fact that I have an outside job and go to school isn't who I am when I'm home with him. There's really nothing crazy there to rationalize, or not, imo.

daddysliloneds -> RE: A Rational Submissive? (7/5/2007 6:44:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Quivver Is rationality a barrier to submission? no, but it can be when choosing partners and/or in circumstances where it will beg to question the 'integrity, safety, reasoning, etc.' of direct orders at times.

Suleiman -> RE: A Rational Submissive? (7/5/2007 4:56:04 PM)
(Fast Reply) Rationality is not a barrier to submission. All you need to be rationally submissive is to posit "I want to submit. I enjoy submitting, submission fulfills me." It is even possible to be a rational submissive serving an irrational dominant (although that gets old pretty fast). Finding the right person takes time. You just have to stick with it.

CreativeDominant -> RE: A Rational Submissive? (7/9/2007 11:43:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Quivver Does being rational and submissive work? I’m sure I’m missing some magic not only internally, but also the experience. Over these few years I’ve met a few others. Some have been absolutely Wonderful Humans others, well… I’m sure I’ve also met the King’s of the Wankers too. It’s been the rational Me that’s kept heart ache to a minimum when dealing with the Wankers and the rational Me who gave up Good relationships due to things that just couldn’t fit. I read a thread lately where a few Dominants mentioned how they prefer sub’s with a bit of head case going on and I’ve observed where those sub’s do seem to have the key to the magic that eludes me. All I can attribute it to is my rationality. I’m not trying to put myself above anyone, Hell I know I’m not! But time and time again I find myself walking away from things that just are not solid in my mind. Is rationality a barrier to submission? I was pointed to this thread by a friend who thought my take on it might be interesting. Rationality and self-sufficiency and independance are all good things to have for the right submissive with the right dominant. I value rationality and self-sufficiency and independance in a submissive. But those three good traits...and there are others...can either work well to draw a dominant or they can work to push certain dominants away. And carried to the wrong extreme can push away the dominant you have. If you are so rational that, instead of obeying an order that does not go against your limits list, you question the wisdom of it...there where of it...the why of it...constantly, even with a dominant that you are committed to serving and may have been serving for awhile, then rationality can lead to a problem. If you are so self-sufficient that, any time your dominant tries to take over responsibility for something, your first tendency is to say "Hey, I can take care of this myself" or "Hey, don't worry, I already have that covered" or etc., then that becomes a problem because his responsibility pool may be shrinking or is not even getting the chance to take hold. If you are so independant that you resent any dominant's attempt to control your movements, actions, behavior even though you desperately want to submit, then it can become a problem. On the other hand, all these things can be good in the right way...rationality may mean that, while the command may not make a lot of sense to you as an individual, you realize that it may...or does...make sense to the dynamic being reinforced. Self-reliance may mean that you do not need him to care for you as a child while still needing him, allowing him, to care for you as an adult and from the standpoint of nurturing the dominant/submissive dynamic. Independance of spirit that is unfettered within the bonds of the D/s dynamic can be achieved through accomodation to his/her will, especially when along with their command comes the recognition of your independance in every other facet of your relationship with others.

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