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On Exit Polls and Saying What We Want - 2/4/2007 7:36:00 AM   
puella


Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		There was a study done recently, due to the very real possibility of having either an African American presidential nominee or a female presidential nominee on pre-polling and exit polling and the match-ability of those results to the actual choices made. 

People were asked, "Would you vote for an African American candidate?" or "Would you vote for a woman for president?" The vast majority, when face to face with another person answered yes to both queries, yet when given the opportunity for a secret vote, voted in the opposite manner. 

I have wondered if that is carried through in this arena.  Oftentimes I have heard Doms repeating as if by rote, even those of the most extreme ethos, that they prefer a sub with intelligence, spirit, one who is accomplished, who is not a 'door mat', etc etc... I have also heard many submissive rhapsodize about a strong Dominant who could control them, who was decisive, powerful, etc etc.

And I wonder if that is actually the case... when you poke beneath the veneer of their initial statements of what they wish for, often... there is a serious disconnect.


Psychologists suggest that the results of the polling suggest that we often have beliefs and feelings which we intellectually know might not be acceptable and so we do not consciously acknowledge them; meanwhile the subconscious still continues on with those beliefs and feelings... hence someone can actually state to a person.. of course I would vote for an African American or woman for president, and then not actually do so when given the freedom of accountability (both conscious and unconscious) of anonymity.

I wonder if we are not societally and culturally programmed in some way to say that that is what we want, because to say otherwise might afford others the opportunity to perceive us as Neanderthalic or out of touch, or just plain off base.  I also wonder if that is a viable issue within this lifestyle. 

I hope to hear some interesting input and debate. 

Thanks!

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RE: On Exit Polls and Saying What We Want - 2/4/2007 7:50:56 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Other than "absolutely."

People say things on the boards all the time that are not at all what REALLY goes on or what most people actually are implementing in their lives. 

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RE: On Exit Polls and Saying What We Want - 2/4/2007 7:53:08 AM   
puella


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Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		Yes, I have found that as well, LA... It just is interesting to me, in this context, as we are already an 'alternative' choice on some level... so to still sort or sensor ourselves is interesting and makes me question what motivates it.

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RE: On Exit Polls and Saying What We Want - 2/4/2007 8:16:30 AM   
hisannabelle


Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline 		i think that this particular example of exit polling is a bad one for this topic, because many people -would- vote for an african american or female candidate...assuming said candidate represented their political beliefs. so it's extremely possible they answered yes and then voted for the candidate who actually represented their beliefs, not the one who was a racial or gender minority.

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RE: On Exit Polls and Saying What We Want - 2/4/2007 8:20:02 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
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Status: offline 		I think the first steps toward breaking down biases is to acknowledge that such biases exist at all.

Then you have to see that they exist in yourself.

Then you have to want to change.

All of this takes time.

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And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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RE: On Exit Polls and Saying What We Want - 2/4/2007 8:20:11 AM   
puella


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Status: offline 		I am sure I was less than clear, which is not unusual....

From what I gathered, the study was concentrated so that they dissected it so that primarily, the issues the candidates were representative of the  cross section... so as to eliminate the possibility of there being a fundamental controversy, otherwise, the study would be highly irrelevant.

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RE: On Exit Polls and Saying What We Want - 2/4/2007 8:22:30 AM   
losttreasure


Posts: 875
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline 		While I'm sure that there is quite a bit of the "going along to get along" mentality in what we say, I do think that the disconnect can often times be attributed to communication.

For example, were someone to poll me as to whether I would vote for an African American or woman (or any other variance) for President, my immediate response would be "absolutely".  However, my actual vote might not reflect that.

Did I lie?

Not at all.   What isn't verbalized with my response of "absolutely" is that I would vote for any candidate who I felt was the appropriate choice to be President, regardless of their race or gender.  The criteria that I use to make that determination is left unspoken, and is therefore subject to interpretation by those who hear my response.  In other words, they may believe that what they consider appropriate, is what I believe to be appropriate.

As you have pointed out, you do often hear dominants claiming that they prefer an intelligent and strong submissive.  The disconnect is when what our perception of what is "intelligent" and "strong" doesn't match up perfectly with their intent.  They clearly see what they consider intelligent and strong inside their heads, the same as we do.  Unfortuntely, our visions do not always match even though we are using the same words to describe them.


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RE: On Exit Polls and Saying What We Want - 2/4/2007 9:24:30 AM   
SmokingGun82


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Status: offline 		Interesting topic, puella.

I've seen similar studies, and they don't necessarily surprise me... concealing thoughts/ideas/feelings is something we learn from a young age, and saying things that are politically correct is a necessary evil for many people. It could be horribly embarrassing for someone if the study turned out to be less than legit, and the participants were exposed, and their name was out as someone who wouldn't vote for a woman/African American/Hispanic/etcetera. They would immediately be thought of as racist/sexist, no matter the reason. And yes, there are some reasons not to vote for someone who is a minority/woman that aren't necessarily racist, at least in some situations.

The same is true here... saying "I want someone who won't think at all" will greatly decrease someone's chance of finding a partner. Yes, there are submissives, both male and female, who want to be complete doormats, but they're few and far between. People will weigh the options, and decide on the course of least resistance- which is usually lying. Is it right? No. Is it moral or just? No. But people will do it, and then they'll wonder why they end up in a series of unsatisfying relationships.

If they're lucky, eventually they decide that they don't want to "settle" for anyone. They'll decide that they're going to hold out for the person who fits their needs exactly, and that they won't accept anything less.

It can be (and is) a lonely road to walk. And of course there are little compromises to be made- maybe your favorite food is lasagna and they don't like it. That's minor and can be ignored. But to decide that you're only going to accept a perfect match... it's a commitment.

I think I wandered off topic a little, and for that I apologize. In the end, I think people lie about who they'd vote for for the same reason they lie about what they want- a desire to be liked and a strong desire not to be ostracized.


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RE: On Exit Polls and Saying What We Want - 2/4/2007 9:30:42 AM   
toservez


Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline 		Pretty much agree with the combination of LA and TammyJo. Of course there is on some level a difference to what people say and what they do. Politics, sex, these boards and all things we want to impress and not be ridiculed.

On boards like these some of us, including me at times will avoid a topic that I know 99% have a belief I do not share or preach advice I will not follow myself. For example on me, I will always tell newbies to explore their local communities but my own beliefs are that I do not care for them. I think sometimes this type of behavior can actually be a good thing as not to start a flame war or cloud information on a topic but it can also be a bad thing when filtering one’s advice and experience on things a mainstream board like this will frown on and legit people looking for legit advice might not get something that might be helpful to them.

But I am strongly with what TammyJo wrote “I think the first steps toward breaking down biases is to acknowledge that such biases exist at all.” We are headed for more then a year of the media and talking to most people about Hilary and Obama while pretending there is not an elephant in the room. I truly cannot believe that none of us know not one person who would not vote for them because of gender or race yet is stupid enough to tell that to a complete stranger.


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RE: On Exit Polls and Saying What We Want - 2/4/2007 9:31:05 AM   
cyberdude611


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Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline 		This is normal, and this is why exit polling aint worth a damn.

But the general thinking is that a white woman could be accepted as president if she has enough support behind her; however, an African-American or hispanic will have a problem.

Both women and minorities have two different problems...
Minorities are going to have a problem with a social phenomenon called "silent racism." There is so much social pressure against racism that people who are racist will never publically declare it, but practice it when in private or with people they trust. So when they go to the booth to vote, they vote against "the black guy." But then when they come out, they say they voted for Obama.

A women has the problem with trying to prove she has the balls for the job. Some world leaders would view a woman president as weak. She wouldn't have much problems in the western world or in civilized nations, but she may have trouble with some countries especially in the mid-east where they dont like women in leadership.
I think a woman president would have to be a leader like Margaret Thatcher was in Britain. She has to prove that she is able to pull the trigger and go to war. And to tell you the truth, I dont think Hillary Clinton can pull it off. That's why if the Dems nominate her, I feel she will surge in the polls, but the GOP will pull well ahead by election day as people figure that they need that masculinity in the White House at a time of war.

Now if you are a minority woman, then you are really screwed. Condoleeza Rice is the only minority female in this country that could possibly have any chance at all at winning a Presidential election. And the reason why is because that is the only minority female that conservatives would trust.

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RE: On Exit Polls and Saying What We Want - 2/4/2007 9:48:15 AM   
griffn


Posts: 32
Joined: 1/3/2007
Status: offline 		And what does this have to do with BDSM? 

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RE: On Exit Polls and Saying What We Want - 2/4/2007 9:50:12 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Griffn I think it's an overall human issue that we're applying to this particular sub-culture.

And, as Puella pointed out, it is a constant source of fascination to hear so many in this sub-culture talk about how thrilled they are to no longer be stuck in their vanilla thoughts and lives, to have finally broken free and no longer have such silly rules...and then immediate start acting just as they did before, just as closed minded, just as many irrational rules, just as many insecurities.

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What We Want - 2/4/2007 9:53:44 AM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: puella


Oftentimes I have heard Doms repeating as if by rote, even those of the most extreme ethos, that they prefer a sub with intelligence, spirit, one who is accomplished, who is not a 'door mat', etc etc... I have also heard many submissive rhapsodize about a strong Dominant who could control them, who was decisive, powerful, etc etc. And I wonder if that is actually the case... when you poke beneath the veneer of their initial statements of what they wish for, often... there is a serious disconnect.

Psychologists suggest that the results of the polling suggest that we often have beliefs and feelings which we intellectually know might not be acceptable and so we do not consciously acknowledge them; meanwhile the subconscious still continues on with those beliefs and feelings... hence someone can actually state to a person.. of course I would vote for an African American or woman for president, and then not actually do so when given the freedom of accountability (both conscious and unconscious) of anonymity.

I wonder if we are not societally and culturally programmed in some way to say that that is what we want, because to say otherwise might afford others the opportunity to perceive us as Neanderthalic or out of touch, or just plain off base. I also wonder if that is a viable issue within this lifestyle.


There have been some very good, thought-provoking posts in this forum of late, and this is one of them.

I personally have gone beyond wonderment and into the realm of the convinced regarding the ability the human animal has for deceiving itself. If one is true to one's own feelings and desires and plies skills of observation about others with good care and unbiased resolve, he or she will inevitably come to the conclusion that most people feel differently than what they show—that most forms of inadvertent self-deceit are quite vincible...and that's putting it ever so nicely.

The intellectual infection of political correctness and the pursuit of in-vogue "decency" runs wide and rampant in nearly all circles of human society. My only contention with the popular notion psychologists have on this matter might come with the idea these processes operate often on the subconscious level. I personally believe more people are indeed aware of what they're doing than the experts might espouse.

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RE: On Exit Polls and Saying What We Want - 2/4/2007 10:05:57 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

Psychologists suggest that the results of the polling suggest that we often have beliefs and feelings which we intellectually know might not be acceptable and so we do not consciously acknowledge them; meanwhile the subconscious still continues on with those beliefs and feelings... hence someone can actually state to a person.. of course I would vote for an African American or woman for president, and then not actually do so when given the freedom of accountability (both conscious and unconscious) of anonymity.

I wonder if we are not societally and culturally programmed in some way to say that that is what we want, because to say otherwise might afford others the opportunity to perceive us as Neanderthalic or out of touch, or just plain off base.  I also wonder if that is a viable issue within this lifestyle. 



I'm not a product of US society and culture but I'll take a stab at a few general points.

There is genetic evidence to support a school of thought claiming like attracts like. It follows that this includes all areas of life (including mates, community, voting etc). Thus, in theory, there is a possibility that people are subconsciously meandering towards inevitable decision making (regardless of conscious statements).

Of course, the above takes no account of cultural programming and varying degrees of self-awareness.

In terms of cultural programming, ethnicity is a key mechanism for establishing groups. It follows that these groups are influenced by, and biased towards, their own ethnic group (thus acting as a driver in decision making). I'll take a wild stab in the dark that roughly 20% of the population really understand ethnicity, its divisive nature, its role in domestic and international politics and, consequently, place no subconscious store in notions of cultural superiority.

In terms of self-awareness, this point relates to the 20% who think independently and can spot information fuelled by vested interest and geared towards manipulation. It goes without saying that self-awareness breeds conviction and consistent statements and actions. This is the link to D/s.

As an Englishman, I couldn't care less if we have man, woman or goat of any colour, size and description (as the top man/woman) providing they act like the servants to the people they're supposed to be rather than a rabble devoid of principles and governed by interest groups. D/s is different for me because I'm fairly new and far from the all-knowing guru (I've spent a lot more time thinking about politics) - so, where I end up remains to be seen but at this point in time I'll say I have a certain amount of self-awareness which means my statements and actions are consistent.

edited for typo



< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 2/4/2007 10:15:24 AM >

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RE: On Exit Polls and Saying What We Want - 2/4/2007 11:06:45 AM   
puella


Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		I am assuming you either did not read my entire post, or that you just focused on the example of politics which I gave, and which fueled my thoughts running in this direction.

Using the example of the voting study, I began to think on how many people, in this forum and in general conversation statethat they want what is probably more PC than not, as if there were some undercurrent of fear of acceptance or tolerance within the community at large.  For Dominants, I hear repeatedly that they want a spirited, intelligent and intellectually curious woman who can think for herself and has strength of character, etc, etc.  More frequently than not, if they actually seek that person out (and many times, they seek out something either quite watered down from that ideal or the direct opposite of that type of person), the relationship ends in tatters as if they did not fully consider what it would mean to have control of a person with those attributes.

The same is true for many submissives.  They moon about strong men, of firm resolve and who (and I hear this particular phrase VERY often) "are strong enough to handle me".  When they submit to that sort person, often times the whinging never ends about how they do not respect the submissive, how they do not listen to the submissive, how they do not factor in the submissives thoughts and opinions, how they are calllous, how thesubmissive is treated as a thing instead of a person, etc etc.

In another meme, if we look at the (what seems at times to be) semi-monthly debate about overweight partrners... The numbers of people who espouse the idea that size means very little to them is quite great, and yet.... it seems that a far less number than that will 'settle' for a chunky slut. (The number of outraged people demanding that the entire world not judge people by their appearance is even greater than that, with what I have noticed to be an even greater variance in realistic application.)

In a culture, or sub-culture, if you will, of people who are supposedly embracing things which are very politically incorrect, I am surprised that there is so much double talk and fear of expressing what they really want and feel.

That is what it has to do with BDSM, in my opinion.

Sorry if you had trouble getting that point from the OP.


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RE: On Exit Polls and Saying What We Want - 2/4/2007 11:31:50 AM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline 		Here's a quote from someone who could relate to what you are talking about...

quote:

To me, ultimately, martial arts means honestly expressing yourself. Now, it is very difficult to do. It has always been very easy for me to put on a show and be cocky, and be flooded with a cocky feeling and feel pretty cool and all that. I can make all kinds of phoney things. Blinded by it. Or I can show some really fancy movement. But to experience oneself honestly, not lying to oneself, and to express myself honestly, now that is very hard to do.-Bruce Lee


< Message edited by slavejali -- 2/4/2007 11:32:51 AM >

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RE: On Exit Polls and Saying What We Want - 2/4/2007 11:36:00 AM   
starshineowned


Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Greetings..~smiles~

I think this in general is just a human issue with to many actual mitigating factors as to why a person might say or do certain things at any given time. A few considerations have already been presented by posters here that most probably were not factored into such a poll as this, and no doubt there are countless more.

As far as what is shared here or on other forums..I don't think I could just out and out say that what is posted Does or Does not actually happen or occur in their daily lives unless I knew them personally, and were privy to their daily lives. Some really bizarre things in this world that go on.

I don't see really to much difference in those engaging in off the wall things not coming right out and stating they do these things based on "their personal life" is their own business or trying to protect their job or family who wouldn't understand etc. as any different from a person who doesn't feel comfortable with stating how they feel honestly about any other topic, be it race, gender, or other based. I think people who exercise thought, caution, and weigh situations are going about it in such a manner as is best expectable from humans.

Well Wishes
starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin


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