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RE: What to do when he won't? - 2/6/2007 5:53:31 AM

mp072004

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I don't care what the activity is, because the activity isn't the issue--fidelity is.

I get the sense from your last paragraph of your first post that this is an activity to which he had agreed, knowingly and explicitly. You and he made some kind of conscious covenant dictating that should you ask him to do this disgusting activity, he would do it. Whether he made this agreement because he was aroused and wasn't thinking very clearly is immaterial. I have a problem with people who break covenants. I would advise that you make it very clear that people in relationships with you need to abide by their agreements. If punishment would help, go for it.

(If, you know, agreements are important to you. They are important to me, so I'm projecting.)

I'm not sure I'd use the same sequence as Tammy Jo--it would depend on how serious I deemed the instances of promise-breaking--but I'm definitely with her on this: "How can you ever be friends with someone who gives his word then breaks?" And, really, why would you want to?

People get to refuse to consent to activities for any reason--disgust included. People also get to set conditions for their relationships and their play, so if your partner won't agree to do something, you get to decide whether you want to continue the relationship, or indulge your partner and revise your arrangement accordingly. Naturally, people can try to persuade their partners and come to some compromise, too, but we're going the simple route here.

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RE: What to do when he won't? - 2/6/2007 7:05:13 AM

undergroundsea

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mp072004

I don't care what the activity is, because the activity isn't the issue--fidelity is.

I get the sense from your last paragraph of your first post that this is an activity to which he had agreed, knowingly and explicitly. You and he made some kind of conscious covenant dictating that should you ask him to do this disgusting activity, he would do it.

In my opinion, there is not enough information to know whether the matter is one of integrity, and the information to make that call lies with the OP. I think there are scenarios that allow a different verdict: (1) a general agreement was made without realizing that this specific could occur, or (2) an agreement was made in good faith thinking it could be executed but when the time came, one found himself unable to continue.

Let's suppose a friend calls and asks if I will help move a couch. I agree but arrive to find the couch to be made of cast iron which I am unable to move. Not being able to move the couch as I agreed does not make it a question of integrity but one of a boundary. In this example, the boundary is a physical one. In the one of the OP, the boundary might be a mental one. While the scenarios are not perfect parallels, they rely upon a common principle: inability to continue with an agreement because it is later found to run against a boundary.

I sense from the last paragraph of the OP that the specific activity was not discussed and instead what was discussed was that there would be no limits. In my opinion, no limits is very broad, and different people have different ideas of what no-limits means. In my opinion, a true no-limits scenario is unlikely or rare. I think no-limits defines a general guideline that does indeed have some limits--although very few and some of which may simply rely on trust that they will not be broached--which will vary from person to person. Suppose we imagine another relationship that has no limits and the top asks the bottom to kill another in a way that is certain to allow the bottom to walk away without repercussions. In my opinion, a refusal to comply and leave is what should occur and, in absence of any consequences, this refusal has its roots in an emotional boundary.

The points I wish to convey are that: (1) emotional boundaries matter and are different for different people, and (2) that an agreement made without specifics can bring complications.

quote:

Whether he made this agreement because he was aroused and wasn't thinking very clearly is immaterial

I think it is relevant whether the agreement was made while he was aroused and thinking unclearly, for I think it is not a good idea to rely on agreements made when one is not thinking clearly. For this reason, I would not think it to be a good idea to negotiate about limits after a round of shots ;-)

I understand entirely that it could become frustrating if multiple agreements were later rescinded with a claim of thinking unclearly. I think what is most relevant here is intent and attitude, which I think is defined by overall presence than by one matter alone. If he seems to otherwise have a good attitude, and it seems he is trying to respond to the no-limits scenario, I think this incident is not a deal breaker. If there is a pattern of of negative behavior, that is another matter.

My two cents.

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RE: What to do when he won't? - 2/6/2007 8:10:05 AM

thetammyjo

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All this is why people really do need to take negotiation and continued negotiation or at least continued communication very seriously.

Just assuming someone will obey you because you and he use the terms "your sub/slave" is not the same as discussing what you mean by these words, your expectations for how the dynamic will work, and an agreement to both work on making this reality.

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RE: What to do when he won't? - 2/6/2007 8:41:58 AM

DiannaVesta

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

Frankly, I'd punish the first time immediately. I don't believe in putting things off so it probably too late for you to do this in your particular situation. Time between only distances the disobedience from the punishment, the connection needs to be strong.

The second time the same thing happen (I'm not talking about refusing to do the same thing, I'm talking about the saying "no" to an order) you immediately stop the scene (I don't whether you are 24/7 or not) and you tell him that it is unacceptable. If it happens again, things are over because you cannot trust him to keep his end of the authority or power dynamic.

The third time, he's gone. Period. No negotiations, no friendship, nothing. How can you ever be friends with someone who gives his word then breaks?

If he really just wants to renegotiate or does like the relationship as much as he thought he would, he needs to be an adult and just say this and have the discussion. The result may be the same but it would be a far more mature way of dealing with things.

Hell yeah I agree 150% with Tammy Jo.

Sure you're entitled to limits I that is what you originally negotiated but if someone comes to me and agrees to serve me at any capacity I see fit then refuses an order???? Oh hell no.
Actually I think Tammy Jo is being kind by punishing them. Depending on what it is I would probably just show them the door.

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RE: What to do when he won't? - 2/6/2007 10:56:03 AM

littlesarbonn

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I'm responding because you indicated a desire for submissives to respond with insight on this. What I have to say may not pertain exactly to your situation, but this is something I've noticed in past interactions that has caused eventual, negative ramifications.

For me, it is more about inconsistency than anything else. When a dominant is courting me, and I find myself having trouble figuring out the boundaries, I start to get less submissive in the relationship the more such situations occur. This happens often for me when I'm starting to be seen by a dominant who has a full dance card and is courting me because she sees me as the service submissive she never succeeded in finding. But every OTHER dominant need she has is completed by some other person in her normal life process. In such a situation, I really need to know she's in charge and wanting to be in charge. But it usually seems to be something completely lacking in a control dynamic. I don't know exactly why this is, but it has happened to me a lot in the past. It kind of feels like it's happening to me right now.

What this usually results in is spotty micromanaging to where sometimes I'm being told what to do, and others I'm not. And then I start to become the victim of "you should know better than that" commentary that tends to be geared more towards failures I had no way of anticipating and an inability to achieve results in areas I didn't know I was even supposed to be trying to achieve results. This usually devolves into "I don't think you're as submissive as I thought you were" which only serves to push the relationship deeper into a deconstructive one.

Right about then, I start moving away from the relationship, and often the dominant doesn't even suspect it because no matter how time I bring up the problem or the concern, it's treated as if it's a communication problem on my part. But whenever I've brought it up in the past, it's one of those "I'm not really interested in that sort of thing" response, which just pushes the potential problem further into an area where it's going to eventually become the main problem. That's what I think may be happening in a lot of these types of situations. What may appear to be a refusal of an order which has caused a problem may be the culmination of a lot of different events that have led to the crisis that you mention in your original post. In this type of dynamic, you will see the refusal of an order as the problem, but the submissive may have been having multiple problems before this, and THIS was the event that finally set it off. He or she may have, correctly or mistakingly, thought that he or she was compromising in the past in all other sorts of requirements, but this one thing was the final straw, even though to the dominant it may seem like it should have been such a small, tiny event or demand.

Anyway, I'm sure others have the "answers". I just happen to run across this a lot and have spent way too much time trying to analyze it. And having said that, I'm sure someone's going to come along and critique "me" for having said it (or just ignore me as usually happens).

< Message edited by littlesarbonn -- 2/6/2007 10:57:57 AM >

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RE: What to do when he won't? - 2/6/2007 11:39:07 AM

LotusSong

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You may want to read Greg Behrendt's book "He's Just Not That Into You"

< Message edited by LotusSong -- 2/6/2007 11:40:30 AM >

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RE: What to do when he won't? - 2/6/2007 11:58:47 AM

Mercnbeth

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Excuse my intrusion to the Mistress Forum.

Nikolette,
Your answer is in this quote from your post:

quote:

So this isn't a communication problem. I've made sure to hash out my expectations and such with each slave that I even consider collaring.

What did you tell him was the consequence when you discussed expectations? If you didn't initiate those consequences due to familiarity, affection, or because you are/were feeling magnanimous you need to reassess your resolve to they dynamics of this relationship. Long term trust derives from consistent application agreed upon rules and consequences for actions which bend or break those rules.

"Head-space" and distractions, other than the physical inability to perform, shouldn't be a factor of obedience. I didn't notice it in the responses I read, but I think there are some who would agree with me that you should consider that he could be "testing" you.

Good luck!

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RE: What to do when he won't? - 2/6/2007 12:45:14 PM

LotusSong

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Ok.. now on the more serious side:

Never accept a "no" without the "why" immediately following it.

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RE: What to do when he won't? - 2/7/2007 10:07:24 AM

Celeste43

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You went too far and too fast. Telling him that he has to find a way to accept this is a lot different than helping him to do. And it's a lot different than going slowly and leading him gently into accepting things that are more edgy over time. Basically if you wanted someone who was okay with gross torture, then you should have looked for slaves with a lot of experience who could tolerate anything. By picking someone with less experience, you set up the fact that you can't do everything you think of right away.

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RE: What to do when he won't? - 2/8/2007 1:25:41 AM

Nikolette

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikolette

StacyCat: Hm. He doesn't exactly have limits, but he would if we had initially formed the relationship like that.

This above is a key to your problem, Nikolette.

Stop the Ds now. I'm serious.

You need to negotiate things and have a solid understanding of what you both want, both need, and both are willing to do to maintain the type of relationship you both want. Negotiation isn't just about limits it is a form of formal communication and it helps one plan for a successful relationship by being on the same page when you start.

Until you do this, you will have a constant stream of these types of confusions, disagreements, and problems. Why would you want this?

Ah this sounds a bit presumptuous. We have a pretty solid understanding of things. I think the main issue at hand was lack of preparation of this particular request.

Wouldn't the "constant stream" of this already be happening during the few months I've owned him?

In respect to your previous post... I didn't jump into owning him. We'd been friends for years.

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RE: What to do when he won't? - 2/8/2007 1:57:14 AM

Nikolette

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mp0720004: I think that I would be more prone to take a harsher view of things if he didn't seem like he understood what he'd done after he did it rather than before. In general my way of doing things tends to involve a lot of communication and finding out what drives this action or that feeling. I found it was more important for me to get him to understand what it did to our relationship. When I discussed it with him I made it known that I desire and deserve someone who will keep the integrity of their word clean. As some have mentioned it’s important to reevaluate limits and concerns and such along the way, and that's what we've been doing. I didn't mention this SPECIFIC thing to him, but I gave pretty similar examples as well as the entire gist of "if you have limits and don't desire to have them pushed, or removed entirely, a relationship with me isn't the thing for you to do." And since he is an adult I can only go on him agreeing to that and me trying to help him through it etc etc.

As for accepting someone who might break their word to me... that is a really deep subject actually, but I'll touch on it. While living my life I had to come to terms with the fact that people don't easily fit into Good or Bad categories. I had to learn that I had a choice to accept some people while understanding that they were limited in some areas and not others. I then was able to choose which people to allow into my life and which to reject because their limitations were too damaging. That is just how my personality is set up; I understand that not everyone else chooses to live the same way. (Just so you know I'm not judging the fact that you would reject someone who'd break his or her word or what not)

undergroundsea: You're basically right, although I did go into lots and lots of specifics because I was aware the vague area of "no limits" to be rather subjective. I did not discount the possibility of there being complications, but I was indeed surprised this was one. And as you (and I in other posts) said... its not a deal breaker situation at this point. If these complications continued and continued onward I suppose it would be time to evaluate the break then.

thetammyjo: True its wrong to simply assume. But I've been pretty clear that we have talked about things many times on many occasions very thoroughly. Expectations, fears, and desires and emotional boundaries were all hashed out in the open. Neither of us went into this blindly.

DiannaVesta: I'd probably be more prone to showing him the door if it were a more casually based relationship that was solely about his usefulness to me. But its got a lot of emotional investment at this point.

littlesarbonn: I have also seen situations like this, and have indeed needed to work on making it clear why and how I micromanage one area and let them have free reign in others. I think your relationships going down hill like that shows a greater need for communication along the way. Success in communication is a two-way road. Just as much as I need to explain things to him, I need him to explain any confusion he has along the way to me rather than waiting for it to burst out like you mentioned. I'll inquire with him to see if what you mentioned is possible.

LotusSong: *grins* I'm fairly certain he's THAT into me. But I didn't accept it without a Why. After being told the why... I still didn't really know what to do. Now, I do.

Mercnbeth: Good point. ... As for testing me? Possibly on a subconscious level.

Celeste43: For the most part I think what you said is what is at the root of this. There are lots of elements at play here but essentially I am aware it’s my responsibility to help him get over these things as they come up. I've done that pretty consistently so far. I suppose my main issue was, as I think I said, not setting up the scene well enough. At least with this situation. Although as Mercnbeth pointed out and as I've come to realize through this thread IF I lead us down this path where confusions and such happen, I definitely needed to have an idea of what to do BEFORE it occurs.

~edited for typos

< Message edited by Nikolette -- 2/8/2007 2:01:48 AM >

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RE: What to do when he won't? - 2/8/2007 6:13:42 AM

thetammyjo

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No point, I just think I don't grok the situation any more after so many responses.

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 2/8/2007 6:15:25 AM >

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