RE: Ethical issues... (Full Version)

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mistoferin -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/8/2005 9:30:08 AM)

quote:

Does he make a choice to either stay married and ignore his need, divorce to pursue his need or pursue the need on the side?


I divorced for exactly that reason. Both other options are living a lie.



Leonidas -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/8/2005 9:30:51 AM)

He's facing a tough choice. Those happen in life sometimes. If he believes that honoring the commitment he made to his wife just plain isn't an option for him, he needs her consent to alter that commitment if he's going to behave ethically. If he just alters it himself, on the sly, he's denying her the basic respect that she is due as a stakeholder in the situation. This situation isn't a shade of grey. He's chosen to behave unethically. What he's doing is wrong for someone who belives that consent is a cornerstone of ethical behavior, regardless of how noble his intent may be.

This isn't really hard. Consider a situation closer to the BDSM world. A man has a slave. She's an uncontrollable slut. After about the fifth time she cops to having unprotected sex with a stranger, he decides that he's going to lock her in a cage, for her own protection. Afterall, she could get hurt by one of these guys, or get AIDS. Does his noble intent justify the non-consensual confinement? Nah, we all know better than that. Disregarding someone's basic right to consent isn't OK by the common standards of this community, regardless of the circumstance or the nobility of intent when doing so. That doesn't change when the person being impacted non-consensually is "vanilla".

Being in this lifestyle and having a strong sense of ethical behavior aren't mutually exclusive. Those who go through the regular world with the attitude that it's all about their pleasure and the rest of the world be damned are simply assholes. In this world they're dangerous assholes. Ethics are more important here, not less.



TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/8/2005 9:36:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

How can it be consensual if the other person involved doesnt consent?


Consent to what? Consent to being cheated on? Well, it wouldn't be cheating if there was consent.

If you were to consider the relationship between the cheating husband and the wife a BDSM relationship, then sure, it wouldn't be SSC. But it isn't a BDSM relationship, so SSC has no role in it. Nor does consent.

Do I need to get the consent of the parents of the people I play with? Do I need to get consent of their children? Where does the line to consent end? What about girlfriends?

quote:


Why fool oneself into believing that just that the third person isnt your concern... you are making it your concern by getting involved.


Huh? Do I need to worry about their parents and children then as well? If not, why not? If so, then where does it stop? Why does it stop there? Can you see it is just an arbitrary line in the sand you are drawing?

quote:


You are assuming that the cheater isnt liked. Thats not really the issue is it. Its the denial that it means nothing to you and doesnt involve you at all, not one bit.


But it doesn't involve me. I have a relationship with a woman or man...I don't care what they do when they are not with me. Why is that so hard for people to understand? I don't care if they are married or dating or having relations with barn yard animals. They provide me what I need when they are with me, and that is all I care about.


quote:


Thats such a dangerous way to think. Not only for the other person involved who you are playing with, but you are risking yourself.


Yes, I am an edge player. So much so that people are afraid to let their slaves meet me. *laughing*

Taggard



TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/8/2005 9:42:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeachMystress

I'm glad your world is so easily black and white. Most of us live in the shades of gray.


But the world is so much easier to understand when you don't need to understand anything outside of your own experience...

Taggard



darkinshadows -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/8/2005 10:39:37 AM)

Bringing parents into the conversation is irrelevant.

Children?... Yes you should consider... your actions could hurt them.

Edge play? Your actions in this respect have nothing to do with edge play. They are irresponsible, full stop.

Still it is your life and the person consenting and the person whos being cheated on and any children involved... nothing to do with us. But bring your private life into the forum and it gets discussed, positve and negative. You have the right to do what you want, as I have the right to comment upon it if you make it public. If You dont like the response, don't post.

Personally, I do not believe in black and white... that would be boring and dull.
But there is a huge difference between playing on the edge, and accepting responsibility for ones actions.



mistoferin -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/8/2005 10:44:36 AM)

quote:

I have a relationship with a woman or man...I don't care what they do when they are not with me.


Would you lie down with Charles Manson because he gave a good blow job? How about a crack whore or an intravenous drug user, so long as they only partake when they are not with you? Of course we all care about what a person we associate with does in the time he/she is away from us. Do you really not?



TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/8/2005 11:09:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

Bringing parents into the conversation is irrelevant.


Why, because you say it is? Some people have closer relationships with their parents then with their spouses. What if the person you are playing with lives in their parent's basement and has to lie to their parents in order to stay there rent free. Aren't you then not getting consent from the parents???

quote:


Children?... Yes you should consider... your actions could hurt them.


And my responsibility to someone elses children is exactly what? And why?

quote:


Edge play? Your actions in this respect have nothing to do with edge play. They are irresponsible, full stop.


Ummm...please define how you are using the term edge play. To me, edge play is any activity that could lead to harm if not done with great care and skill. What I am describing quite accurately matches my definition...please tell me yours and how what I am describing does not fit.

quote:


Still it is your life and the person consenting and the person whos being cheated on and any children involved... nothing to do with us. But bring your private life into the forum and it gets discussed, positve and negative. You have the right to do what you want, as I have the right to comment upon it if you make it public. If You dont like the response, don't post.


Umm...I didn't reveal anything private. I am speaking in generalities. I love the response...I am an attention whore.

quote:


Personally, I do not believe in black and white... that would be boring and dull.
But there is a huge difference between playing on the edge, and accepting responsibility for ones actions.


And what would that difference be?

Taggard



TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/8/2005 11:18:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
Would you lie down with Charles Manson because he gave a good blow job?


Well, I am not about guys and blow jobs, but if I found value in a person that was an outcast of society, hell yes I would spend time with them. I do not take others assessments of individual character, be they media, government or individual. I make my own assessments and act accordingly.

If you are asking if I would associate with a known mass murderer, I would respond that being a mass murderer would most likely lead one to have characteristics I did not desire in a friend. However, if that was not they case, yes, I suppose I would. This does not mean I would not report them and try to get them help, just that I would not stop associating with them just because they did things I would not do.

quote:


How about a crack whore or an intravenous drug user, so long as they only partake when they are not with you?


I have no problem with adults participating in their own self-destruction through drug use. I certainly would not stop associating with them because of it. I value my health, so I would take responsible precautions, but I would indeed continue to spend time with them if I enjoyed it.

quote:


Of course we all care about what a person we associate with does in the time he/she is away from us. Do you really not?


I really don't. I find it kind of odd that people do. Why should I care what people do when I am not there??? If when we are together we are happy, what else matters?

Taggard



Alexander -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/8/2005 12:26:06 PM)

kella.

I was involved in an open relationship for years. We didnt have a jealous bone between us both. Yet she knew everything I did. because I told her, as if I was going to the store and taking the car I just told her. We were M/s and maybe that makes a difference I dont know. The point being, the man entered a marriage, doesn't hold his vows as important and hides himself from his spouse. I mean come on. shouldnt the term "weakness" mean something when it comes to doms? You're doing the right thing, avoiding the situation. The thing is it's not your ethical decision it's his. I said ths elsewhere but its worth repeating. If he has to lie to his wife, she owns him. Can you be owned by a slave? The Romans didnt seem to mind. they also thought vomitoriums were pretty cool.

Alex.



TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/8/2005 12:31:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alexander

I said ths elsewhere but its worth repeating. If he has to lie to his wife, she owns him. Can you be owned by a slave?


I think that is such a perfectly expressed concept. I think it really extends beyond just marriage...lying is like selling yourself one quote at a time. Each lie costs you something...

As usual, you bring something of insight and wit to the discussion.

Taggard



Alexander -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/8/2005 12:32:54 PM)

yeah but the vomitorium part kills! come on give it up!

Ill be here all week, friday through sunday dark.

Alex.



Cyis75 -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/8/2005 12:44:22 PM)

To answer the OP from my own position...

My fiance and I have an open relationship... The one governing litmus test has been whether or not we could tell the other about it... If we couldn't tell the other than probably something we shouldn't be doing... Whenever either of us meets up with someone else it is done with full disclosure so that the other partner knows when, where and with who. For us it's the only way and we choose not to be with someone else that's in a relationship if their partner is unaware. To that end we are both willing to talk with the other person to confirm that it is okay and not being done behind someone's back. I had one lady forego committing to meet with me until after she had spoken with my fiance and was sure it was okay with her.

I hazard making such a wide-sweeping comment as that it's cheaters like this (both sexes are guilty of it) that make it harder for those that are in open and honest relationships from being taken seriously by other single people. I only mention single in this instance although I'm sure there are couples that would fall under it but by far I think it's more single individuals being overly cautious of someone in a relationship because of the ratio of cheaters.

Hey, just my opinion and view on the subject and anyone's welcome to disagree or agree with it as you see fit.



mistoferin -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/8/2005 12:59:17 PM)

quote:

I really don't. I find it kind of odd that people do. Why should I care what people do when I am not there??? If when we are together we are happy, what else matters?


Because when you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas. If you choose to associate with toxic people, you will walk away in some way affected by their poison. You are judged in this society by the company you keep.

I am not saying that what you are doing is wrong. What I am saying is that you can't do something that you know is generally judged as a "moral wrong" by society and keep claiming that you just don't understand why others "just don't understand". I participate in an alternative lifestyle that most of society views as wrong....but I do understand why they feel that way and I am not going to go out of my way to be insensitive to their feelings. I have made concious choices and I accept that those choices will sometimes affect the way that I am viewed by others.

It is perfectly ok to go against the grain so long as you understand and bear the responsibility that you will have a tougher row to hoe. No man is an island and what we do has a trickle down effect. We can not just go through life with an "I don't give a shit about anyone but myself" attitude.



2belightened -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/8/2005 1:17:34 PM)

The world isn't just many shades of gray, but hues of various colors. Of course, right is right and wrong is wrong, but who of us is so utterly perfect to walk the white line every day of one's life. I tried my best until of late. I have suppressed. I have given. I have been as perfect as I could possibly be. My ultimate goal was to become a Stepford wife.

Then one day something snapped. This other world appeared and I'm lured to it, bedazzled by it. What if it is all a crock? What if I give up my entire life, my carefully build tower of virtue and June Cleaver pearls, just to see if this is real? What if the fantasy of it draws me, but the reality is torrid?

None of this is easy. It is torment and loaded with uncertainty. On top of it all, we're only human with all the frality and flaws that comes with that. We will make mistakes. We can only try our best to walk softly and not hurt anyone. So, where do I stand on this issue. I don't know. I think each of us has to make our choices and live with our decisions and not judge those who can't follow the pristine path.

A wise woman once told me, you don't know how someone else's shoes pinch until you've walked in them.

A poem to contemplate in this vein of thought...

TEMPEST

Into the tempest of the night,
I see the ruby tears of my soul.
Why can I not pursue the light?
Where is the joy that once concealed
the fear brewing in the bowels of
a conscience that is incomplete?
I search and search and see but
inky tides of recriminations kissing
the shore of my encumbering sins.
Is there a way out of the whirlpool
of doubt, or the conflict of passions
and the duty of a spirit’s pure mind?
What will I do? Where will I go?
How to find the absolution that they
had denied such an insignificant morsel
of faulty design and cruel ignorance.
I turn in a direction not so wise,
abhorring the lure that will not subside.
Yet the moonless night holds no
answers and the key to deliverance
rests in the handling of a stranger.
How do I allow this? For I
know what is right. Yet, I find
myself on the course of destruction,
unable to stop the flow of those
throbbing needs and condemning labels.
The time has come and I stand in hues
of gray, torn between shadows and flames.
Which will I choose? Or, is it that
I truly have no say?




darkinshadows -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/8/2005 1:17:42 PM)

quote:

Umm...I didn't reveal anything private. I am speaking in generalities. I love the response...I am an attention whore.


Welcome to the club!
Revel in it, soak it up and enjoy. I do.[:D]


quote:

To me, edge play is any activity that could lead to harm if not done with great care and skill. What I am describing quite accurately matches my definition...please tell me yours and how what I am describing does not fit.


I believe you have answered your own question. Case rests.

Peace and Love[;)]



TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/8/2005 1:55:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Because when you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas.


But that is not so bad, if you are a flea...it all depends on perspective.


quote:


If you choose to associate with toxic people, you will walk away in some way affected by their poison. You are judged in this society by the company you keep.


Yeah, I don't really worry too much about how people judge me. Nor do I worry about how the people I associate with are judged. One man's poison is another man's passion.

quote:


I am not saying that what you are doing is wrong. What I am saying is that you can't do something that you know is generally judged as a "moral wrong" by society and keep claiming that you just don't understand why others "just don't understand".


I understand that people are small minded and judgemental. I just find it odd. I know I couldn't live that way if I tried.

quote:


I participate in an alternative lifestyle that most of society views as wrong....but I do understand why they feel that way and I am not going to go out of my way to be insensitive to their feelings.


Yeah, I really don't care if my lifestyle hurts anyone's feelings. I don't push myself on people, but if you talk to me, I am going to tell you what I think.

quote:


It is perfectly ok to go against the grain so long as you understand and bear the responsibility that you will have a tougher row to hoe.


I think that my path is actually much easier. I surround myself with people who really understand and appreciate me for exactly what I am. If you take two people, one who is an honest asshole and one who is a lying nice guy, the honest asshole will have many more real friends. People will put up with an asshole, but they won't put up with a fake.

quote:


No man is an island and what we do has a trickle down effect. We can not just go through life with an "I don't give a shit about anyone but myself" attitude.


But if you really read what I wrote, you will understand that it isn't that I don't give a shit about anyone. In fact, I will associate with people who are rejected by lots of others because they do drugs, or cheat, or kill people. If that means I am judged harshly by society, so be it. I live by my rules and my rules alone...

Taggard



TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/8/2005 1:58:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

quote:

To me, edge play is any activity that could lead to harm if not done with great care and skill. What I am describing quite accurately matches my definition...please tell me yours and how what I am describing does not fit.


I believe you have answered your own question. Case rests.



Come on, that is a cop-out.

How is what I said answering my own question? Do you agree with me and therefore retract what you said originally, or is there some deeper meaning I am supposed to get?

I humbly beseach you to take pity on this dullard and enlighten me as to how I answered my own question...

Taggard



domtimothy46176 -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/8/2005 3:04:44 PM)

To me it's really easy and simple. If you play with a cheater then you are a cheater. It may not be your vows being broken but you're a party to the breaking, just the same. My way of thinking may be small-minded and judgemental to some but I won't lose any more sleep over my opinions than you will yours. On the plus side, I'm a lot less likely to get myself shot for living my beliefs.
Timothy



January -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/12/2005 9:47:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeachMystress
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas
I can't belive I have to say this out loud, but there is such a thing as right and wrong. That's wrong.

I'm glad your world is so easily black and white. Most of us live in the shades of gray.


This is why I love the forums.

I find this exchange fascinating. Morals and ethics ARE black and white. They have to be. There's no such thing as flexible, broad-minded morals.

The idea that if you have movable morals, situational ethics, you are broad-minded is fascinating, but wrong. It certainly doesn't apply to the responders to this thread who advocate cheating because they "need" it.

For them, it appears morals are simply modified according to what feels good. What's best for them.

Selfishness, is, in my opinion, the most narrow-minded approach to life there is. It's got nothing to do with "gray" ethics. It's as black and white as it comes: Me or not me. And only me matters.

January



kyakitten -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/12/2005 11:02:30 AM)

January -
Of course there are situational ethics. Morals are like shoes - same basic principle underlies them, but different sizes and styles are warranted based on the situation, and occasionally barefoot is the way to go. The classic case study on this is - if a certain drug is needed immediately to save someone's life and the only way that someone can obtain it from a closed pharmacy is by stealing it, is it wrong to steal it?

As a society we laud consistency way beyond its inherent value just because it it's convenient for our overtaxed brains to do so. Of course, then our society hypocritically ignores whatever ramifications we want to - and villainize people like Peter Singer who point out what a genuine commitment to moral consistency would mean.

As to being selfish, there's a huge difference between that and a concept I'll call "self-full" - looking out for one's own wellbeing while NOT disregarding the impacts on others. Imho if we humans have one consistent moral responsibility to anything, it is for each of us to be self-full - to be true to oneself while doing our best not to harm those around us.

Furthermore, I firmly believe that actual selflessness is the greatest possible disrespect to the gift of life each of us has received. So isn't perversely beautiful that by acting as though we're selfless, so many of us can gratify ourselves? <g>


kella -
The way I see it, no one has a duty to uphold vows that they had no part in making. Your duty is to yourself. If it will damage you emotionally to believe that you are harming someone's nonconsenting partner, don't do it. If you are worried that down the road you'll get hurt because of the situation or the perceived character of the person you're getting involved with, weigh that against the potential benefits and then decide. On the other hand, if these things don't/wont cause you emotional pain, go forth and prosper. The guy you're dealing with is going to find some way to fulfill his so-called "needs". You can't control that, so do what's best for you.



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