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ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

90% of the time it looks like any other relationship.

I do not keep anything from my partner except birthday and hannukah surprises and that's just for a short time- and we are a vanilla based relationship.

It's honestly not something I had thought of until you asked, although I was delighted the other day when my partner used "we" in terms of his CDs.

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ORIGINAL: slavemaia

Surrender has been and will mostly likely continue to be a process. It is something that happens within me rather than something within my control. It's occurred over the course of time, sometimes by forcing myself to do exactly what i don't agree with because it's what Master wants - othertimes it's this amazing realization of how much i adore Chairman and crave pleasing Him. In this regard it's more of a surrender to who i am on a very deep level. What it looks like in my relationship is He's in charge and i'm not - ha ha - that's it in a nutshell.
 
In terms of an aha moment - yes - when i realized that Master had taken me, not by force but through patience and love, my desire to please Him grew so strong that suddenly i realized the power struggle was over, i wasn't so afraid anymore - the fear had been replaced with love and gratitude. Are there things i still cling to? Undoubtedly yes - as i doubt all my fears and doubts have been wiped away entirely, but Master expects only steady progress, not perfection.

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ORIGINAL: chrissyslave
Surrender, or better submission as another way of saying it, early on looks to me I might recieve significant discipline for not turning quickly enough in my obedience, which may or may not help more in my overall surrender.  I would ask a few questions here of interests to me, but don't want to hijack this topic, but maybe someone might have some thread references:

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1.  If the spirit is willing to surrender but the flesh is weak, have you seen that discipline (mental or physical) helped you become more focused on your areas of surrender you have already stated you were willing to make? 

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     I am thinking it might help train your body (meaning what you do) to be more willing to focus on what you know is right for the relationship (obedience, priorities to the master, etc).  Later on once a stronger connection between slave and master/mentor is achieved then one can more count on the adversion of disappointment then fear of the crop/cane.  But in the shorter term the risk seems to me that it might hurt the turning of the heart, causing resentment, misassociation to past hurts, fear, anger (perhaps upon existing anger), etc., that might come ...again in the very early stages of a connection:  1-2 months and not much if any face-to-face contact if any so far.

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2.  The second question for reference to is what within your being (not external life) slowed you down in your surrender that you could not easily over-ride?  And what did you do to get past that?

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3.  How do you know what type of M/s situation is the best match for your personal tendencies and state of being?  How did you decide on the style that was best for you, especially without any prior M/s or BDSM experience? 

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One thing I think will help me in my surrender is what I have read others say is their pattern and it to ask yourself such questions such as "have I made my master's life better today for me being in it?" and  "was I pleasing to him today?" and more, and seems that might be one way to keep my focus on the committment to surrender more in this new connection.

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So besides possible "negative" discipline, perhaps surrender to me means establishing ways to keep my focus on Sir so I won't have to endure any unpleasant discipline....and that would be a bit more "positive." 

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ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatrossI can see why you would link them together, but for me surrender is a different concept than submission.

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That's what discipline IS- controlled behavior and thought.
And yes, discipline builds on discipline. 

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Are you afraid?  Serving under fear isn't healthy at any stage. 
You have to want discipline for yourself, because you know this is the right path for you.

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What we do in M/s is simply carry over that discipline and specialize it in, mold it into forms.  Just as an athlete also pays his bills, he has to train in his profession.

And it's ok if we start out with no discipline- I suck at eating well everyday.  Discipline always has to start somewhere- within you.

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If this is what is right for you, then you have to do it, if not, nothing will make it so.

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Again, time and experience.  This is true of all forms of relationships.  You get to know each other, learn each others expectations, desires.  Decide whether that fulfills you, whether that's what you want for the relationship.

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Hmmm that's not really a great cycle to be in.  Again, you should want to obey and commit because it serves YOU to do so and the relationship fits YOU.  The negative discipline happens inevitably, more in the beginning, because it's all new.

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ORIGINAL: chrissyslave
Yes, would think a finer division would be better, as surrender is more about the mind/heart regarding feelings, and submission is more about the body/actions in terms of obedience.

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Yes, "discipline" is perhaps what is being sought at the moment instead of "surrender" which will perhaps more occur on it's own and to whatever extent is natural in the relationship.

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Not afraid yet (maybe in part as I have not experienced the undetermined form of it yet), but sense adversion to having to face some form of discipline but more as a reflection of self failure.  Certainly D/M's use fear of discipline to encourage better response to their directives, and more obedient thought patterns.

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I agree, and without that particular set of ingrained behavior patterns and focus on top of other influences pulling one in a different direction it is not an easy "turning process" so early on.  And is one (additional) reason I desire to remove myself from my current  environment, which is non M/s,  so a better focus and response would be possible, even is just to live alone.  So working on doing that at the same time and in a better living environment with less stress would be quite helpful I realize.  But also know that when the "cat is away the mouse will..."  and that can be a drawback to on-line versus 24/7 situations.

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A very solid point you made here.  The difficulity for me at times is to separate this basic need and personal reality from my past or current experiences that have placed some stress on myself, or been more abussive in nature, and subconsciously affects my willingness to be as responsive as my inner being would like be expressed.  So I try to divide out theold  negative from the new positive influence and respond to each accordingly, but is difficult much of the time when on the surface they seem very similar to my eye.

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I agree, and do very much want it to be from a position of want and desire, as I know in my heart that is right for me, and more I think is how that works it's self out in the space I am in, both with habits and focus, as well as the particular environment I am in.  But I am quite willing to look at areas of resistance as they surface, note then and seek ways to correct and redirect them.  I'm just not as comfortable with doing as much internal reviewing as I am doing at the moment although I have no doubt it is necessary and for the best. 

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And if imposed "discipline" is done to help move that along then I will submitt to that with an open heart, and push away thoughts that would be reactive and hurtful to the relationship. 

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In that regards I almost welcome "discipline" if it would help speed this process along a bit faster, which no doubt my refects a bit of self frustration in these regards at my speed thus far. 

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ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Uh, no, they don't.  Not if they want it to work in the long term.  Is this fear coming from the master or from you? 
Fear can be a natural and understandable feeling in relationships, but it should NOT be the motivation for any decisions or actions.