when is a contract is not a contract

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steviemichael -> when is a contract is not a contract (2/9/2007 3:18:56 AM)
when is a contract is not a contract ? I am sure that many have read or even entered into a "contract" but just what value do they serve ? personally I tend to think they are no more then a "promise note" subject to change when and how I am feeling at the time. therefore a "contract" in its true sense of the word is never binding.

steviemichael -> RE: when is a contract is not a contract (2/9/2007 3:24:32 AM)
BDSM contracts are not legally binding. In areas of the world where BDSM activities are illegal, contracts brought to light can be used to prosecute those involved in the BDSM lifestyle. In most states, consent is not a defense to criminal activity, and a BDSM contract may not protect a Dominant from being charged with criminal activity.

sleazybutterfly -> RE: when is a contract is not a contract (2/9/2007 3:25:35 AM)
I guess one could say it is nonbinding and therefore doesn't mean that much. I have one with Daddy, it was a symbol of me giving myself to him the night I was collared to him. We both know that it won't hold up anywhere, it was sort of like wedding vows or something along that line. The words in the contract are still there, put away, but they linger in my heart..and that is where the power to bind exists.

steviemichael -> RE: when is a contract is not a contract (2/9/2007 3:39:13 AM)
i notice that many forms of contracts some which have been formatted http://www.bdsmcircle.net/dslifestyle/contracts.htm and others like yourself posted which is very much a personal exchange may i ask if i may be permitted . the contract you mention were they "signed" and have you ever refer to the contract in the course of your path with your patner ?

LadyEllen -> RE: when is a contract is not a contract (2/9/2007 3:41:57 AM)
It is impossible in law to form a binding contract under which one or other party is to provide or procure goods or services which are illegal by reference to criminal law. For instance, you cannot enforce a contract on someone you have paid to steal, kill etc in law. Since imprisonment, assault and abuse are the principal legal definitions of what might be contained as conditions in a bdsm contract, and these are also offences in criminal law, such a contract is null and void even at drafting stage. It is also impossible in law to informally consent to provide or procure goods or services which are illegal by reference to criminal law; imprisonment, assault and abuse remain criminal offences regardless of two or more parties consenting to them. Such contracts constitute principally memoranda of undertakings only, and can be easily co-opted into evidence for a prosecution in a far more ready way than informal verbal agreements where it is one word against another should things go awry. E

MstrssPassion -> RE: when is a contract is not a contract (2/9/2007 3:47:07 AM)
as the others have said... they are not legally binding A contract is just another tool & like any tool... they are only good if you know how to use it, so learn to use the tools before they are discounted as worthless. Some people work well with the transference of information verbally & others really need the written word. A contract can also be used to mark milestones or goals within the agreement-- where you are & where you want to go. As for the "subject to change whenever you want"... if you clearly state within this contract that it will be reviewed periodically.. lets say every 6 months (or whatever) then neither can claim that the written agreement is just a note pad with random entries made on a whim.

sleazybutterfly -> RE: when is a contract is not a contract (2/9/2007 3:47:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: steviemichael i notice that many forms of contracts some which have been formatted http://www.bdsmcircle.net/dslifestyle/contracts.htm and others like yourself posted which is very much a personal exchange may i ask if i may be permitted . the contract you mention were they "signed" and have you ever refer to the contract in the course of your path with your patner ? Ours was from one that had already been written, but that was just as a base. We took a few things out and adjusted the rest. For example.. It talked of Masters having as many slaves or sexual partners as they wanted, but the slave not having any. We took that part out because we are monogamous (him allowing me a woman, but me not having found one) and neither of us wanted another in our relationship without total consent of the other one. We don't talk of the contract much at all. Sometimes more in joking when I say I don't want to do something (playfully) and he will tell me what was in the contract I signed or something along that line. I think there is a pretty good variety out there, so finding one with a good base isn't too hard, then you can change or add on where you like, make it more personal to the couple or situation.

SnowQueen -> RE: when is a contract is not a contract (2/9/2007 3:51:56 AM)
Whille not legally binding, it could come back to haunt you, like in <a href="http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=16102112&BRD=1719&PAG=461&dept_id=25271&rfi=6">this example</a>.

hisannabelle -> RE: when is a contract is not a contract (2/9/2007 4:00:42 AM)
we also had a contract of sorts, but neither of us signed it and it wasn't terribly formal. it just layed out His rules and expectations as we started bringing d/s into our relationship, and allowed me to see more of where He was coming from as my dominant. we've deviated from it in some ways and kept it in others, but we don't really go back and edit it obsessively or anything like that. like sleazybutterfly, we don't refer to it that much at all, really. i think it was a very helpful process for us to go through at the beginning of the relationship, though.

onestandingstill -> RE: when is a contract is not a contract (2/9/2007 4:11:47 AM)
You're correct in the notion that contracts are not worth the paper their printed on unless both parties approach it with sincerity. Marriage vows are broken way more often than in past years too. Often contracts are broken as it seems integrity is on the verge of extinction theses days. It's the impulsive instant gratification society that drives this IMO. I also see contracts as a way to lay out your expectations on paper. A lesson planner of sorts. I think it helps both people understand the other persons expectations. It's a learning about each other tool I feel has great benefits. I've only been under one contract and the man I was with didn't keep his end of the agreements in 10 out of the12 things he committed himself by his choice to. I felt a lot like you back when I left him. I kept my end of the bargain and he perverted his. I felt out contract was only designed to trap and offend me as he pulled the "I'm the Dom and can change the contract any time I choose to without your knowledge or consent as this is my world" thing on me. Now that it's been 6 months since I took my release of that I'm back to feeling like they are a learning tool, and life plan. The anger and betrayal of my only contract being broken are not driving forces that still have power over me. One day I hope I may even serve someone who has enough integrity to honor his side of a contract he forms with me. I can tell you this though. It's going to take a long time, and a special someone to convince me to take a collar and contract ever again. For me a contract is not a joke, not to be entered into lightly, and not made to be broken, but rather to strengthen the union I form with someone. suzanne

Caitriona -> RE: when is a contract is not a contract (2/9/2007 4:18:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: onestandingstill You're correct in the notion that contracts are not worth the paper their printed on unless both parties approach it with sincerity. I also see contracts as a way to lay out your expectations on paper. A lesson planner of sorts. I think it helps both people understand the other persons expectations. It's a learning about each other tool I feel has great benefits. For me a contract is not a joke, not to be entered into lightly, and not made to be broken, but rather to strengthen the union I form with someone. Suzanne, I agree with your statements wholeheartedly! My Lord and I have a contract and it is important to us - that's what is important. It has helped us define our goals/responsibilities/ect in the relationship. I do not view it as legally binding and should I ever desire release, I know He will grant it to me under the terms of our contract. It's only worth what you put into it, just like any other symbol in this lifestyle (such a collar).

Littlepita -> RE: when is a contract is not a contract (2/9/2007 5:42:36 AM)
We think of our contract more along the lines of a covenant. It is a heartfelt promise we both made to be together and to abide by the limits and obligations we feel are important.

LeatherBentOne -> RE: when is a contract is not a contract (2/9/2007 5:46:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: onestandingstill You're correct in the notion that contracts are not worth the paper their printed on unless both parties approach it with sincerity. Marriage vows are broken way more often than in past years too. Often contracts are broken as it seems integrity is on the verge of extinction theses days. It's the impulsive instant gratification society that drives this IMO. I also see contracts as a way to lay out your expectations on paper. A lesson planner of sorts. I think it helps both people understand the other persons expectations. It's a learning about each other tool I feel has great benefits. I've only been under one contract and the man I was with didn't keep his end of the agreements in 10 out of the12 things he committed himself by his choice to. I felt a lot like you back when I left him. I kept my end of the bargain and he perverted his. I felt out contract was only designed to trap and offend me as he pulled the "I'm the Dom and can change the contract any time I choose to without your knowledge or consent as this is my world" thing on me. Now that it's been 6 months since I took my release of that I'm back to feeling like they are a learning tool, and life plan. The anger and betrayal of my only contract being broken are not driving forces that still have power over me. One day I hope I may even serve someone who has enough integrity to honor his side of a contract he forms with me. I can tell you this though. It's going to take a long time, and a special someone to convince me to take a collar and contract ever again. For me a contract is not a joke, not to be entered into lightly, and not made to be broken, but rather to strengthen the union I form with someone. suzanne What a great post. You are a very strong person to have gone through this and come out of it in a positive manner. You serve as a good example for others. I hope you find what you need and are seeking. Obviously, the Dom who went back on his word, then claimed he had the right to without your knowledge and consent lacked integrity as a person, much less the Dom he called himself, in my estimation. I think your head is in the right place and Ive enjyed your previous posts. LBO

SirDominic -> RE: when is a contract is not a contract (2/9/2007 6:10:55 AM)
You are correct, of course, that contracts are not in any way legal. But they do serve a purpose, and an important one. A good one sets out in detail what the responsibilities of the Dom and sub will be. If either party is unwilling or unable to abide by the rules agreed upon, there is little hope for the relationship (as onestandingstill so painfully found out). A contract is also important in the sense that Littlepita suggested; that as long as the two parties consider it binding, it IS to them. I disagree with the OP that contracts are "subject to change when and how I am feeling at the time". Though they are fluid, I would not accept any sub or slave who thought they could obey it or not at their whim. That is not being true to the relationship. Finally contracts are not set in stone, they are (or should be, anyway) organic, growing and changing as the relationship between Dom and sub grows and changes. Namaste, Sir Dominic

onestandingstill -> RE: when is a contract is not a contract (2/9/2007 6:17:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LeatherBentOne What a great post. You are a very strong person to have gone through this and come out of it in a positive manner. You serve as a good example for others. I hope you find what you need and are seeking. Obviously, the Dom who went back on his word, then claimed he had the right to without your knowledge and consent lacked integrity as a person, much less the Dom he called himself, in my estimation. I think your head is in the right place and Ive enjoyed your previous posts. LBO Thank you for your kind words. Please don't feel sorry for me, I don't, nor do I regret my life with my first Master for one second of it. When you look at the statistics I can agree this man seemed like a beast. The truth is he was 85% a wonderful Master indeed. It was the 15% of prior ingrained ways, and his selfishness that loomed over the three of us like a painful storm cloud all of us wanted to go away. Most of the infractions were not done in premeditated malice, but rather poor impulsive choices. I learned so very many valuable and phenomenal things sitting at this Master's feet. I still am very thankful to have been his for the time we were afforded. The relationship, and continual fracturing of our contract was toxic to us all. Especially him. Believe it or not, all but 2 things have already been fully forgiven. I wish him well in finding the path he sees but is not standing on yet with the same fever I seek to fully stand on mine. He indeed placed my feet on my path, and tested my ability to be on it, and my desire to live on it well. He was a good Dominant in many numerous ways. I do not find him an evil man. Sadistic, yes, Predator, not even close. He deserves to find his one who views the world and ranks matters of importance in the same scale he does as much as the rest of us. I hope one day he does find his life mate, and she'll be lucky to have him if he becomes that which he tried hard to be with me. Without this man's guidance I would not firmly know who I am and where I fit in this lifestyle I love near as deeply as I do now. I may only be coming up on my 2 year anniversary of my awakening 2/24/07, but I have a wealth of knowledge and practical skills I've acquired from his 25 year experiences he shared with me. I was afforded an education most don't have the opportunity to have. I'm very grateful to him for that. Though his imperfections, and my reactions to them hindered us being together I will always value the training I was afforded in his care as the foundation of my submissiveness. suzanne

toservez -> RE: when is a contract is not a contract (2/9/2007 7:01:58 AM)
It is what ever works for both parties type of thing. Like some have said contracts can be a very useful communication tool to clearly spell out the duties, responsibilities and whatever the two people want to make clear on. Despite that everyone always harps on communication some couples may not have talked all things through and drawing up a contract can be quite useful in making sure both people are in agreement and are on the same page on things that are obvious and things that they have not thought about. Besides a communication tool it is up to the individuals and their nature what other benefits might be drawn from it. Personally I do not think much of them outside of the above stated reason. I have seen the good it has done from someone who used the contract as a source to gain strength as the other person showed blatant disregard for it and helped them get out of a bad relationship. I have also seen people use it for less then honorable reasons. I have seen a submissive try to control the relationship like a lawyer pointing out if something was not in writing and I have seen dominants use it as a way to avoid any responsibility and an artificial cop out on things. It has no legal standing but a contract is only as useful as what a couple wants, agrees to and lives by. If it helps, great, if it does not you can always rip it up.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: when is a contract is not a contract (2/9/2007 7:33:14 AM)
quote: contract ? I am sure that many have read or even entered into a "contract" but just what value do they serve ? personally I tend to think they are no more then a "promise note" subject to change when and how I am feeling at the time. therefore a "contract" in its true sense of the word is never binding. http://www.collarchat.com/m_545721/mpage_1/key_contracts/tm.htm#546253 Contracts- who uses them? http://www.collarchat.com/m_537964/mpage_1/key_contract/tm.htm#537987 contracts (5) http://www.collarchat.com/m_507069/mpage_1/key_CONTRACTS/tm.htm#507258 contracts http://www.collarchat.com/m_484623/mpage_1/key_contracts/tm.htm#485005 contracts, necessary or not? http://www.collarchat.com/tm.asp?m=425700&mpage=1&key=contracts&#425768 bdsm contracts http://www.collarchat.com/m_15441/mpage_1/key_contract/tm.htm#15441 Master/slave contract http://www.collarchat.com/m_21514/mpage_1/key_contract/tm.htm#21514 CONTRACT http://www.collarchat.com/m_1001/mpage_1/key_contracts/tm.htm#1001 Contracts for servitude the good, the bad, And why is it so different between Masters n Mistresses? http://www.collarchat.com/m_1108/mpage_1/key_contracts/tm.htm#1108 Contracts? http://www.collarchat.com/m_17858/mpage_1/key_contracts/tm.htm#17858 Should slaves be able to submit to legally binding slave contracts? http://www.collarchat.com/m_20389/mpage_1/key_contracts/tm.htm#20389 Enforcable "slave" contracts http://www.collarchat.com/m_22380/mpage_1/key_contracts/tm.htm#22380 Contracts (AGAIN LOL) http://www.collarchat.com/m_24502/mpage_1/key_contracts/tm.htm#24502 Breaking COntracts http://www.collarchat.com/m_34466/mpage_1/key_contracts/tm.htm#34466 Contracts for sub http://www.collarchat.com/m_46146/mpage_1/key_contracts/tm.htm#46146 Contracts (2) http://www.collarchat.com/m_82470/mpage_1/key_contracts/tm.htm#82470 Service "contracts" (no it isn't about legality) http://www.collarchat.com/m_93072/mpage_1/key_contracts/tm.htm#93072 slave contracts http://www.collarchat.com/m_96407/mpage_1/key_contracts/tm.htm#96407 Contracts, again... http://www.collarchat.com/m_111463/mpage_1/key_contracts/tm.htm#111463 written contracts? http://www.collarchat.com/m_111845/mpage_1/key_contracts/tm.htm#111845 The question of written contracts http://www.collarchat.com/m_162840/mpage_1/key_contracts/tm.htm#162840 merging wedding vows and Ds contracts http://www.collarchat.com/m_212413/mpage_1/key_contracts/tm.htm#212413 Contracts (3) http://www.collarchat.com/m_278323/mpage_1/key_contracts/tm.htm#278323 Dom/sub written contracts http://www.collarchat.com/m_287421/mpage_1/key_contracts/tm.htm#287421 slave contracts, good examples needed http://www.collarchat.com/m_71935/mpage_1/key_contract/tm.htm#71935 D/s contract

MagiksSlave -> RE: when is a contract is not a contract (2/9/2007 7:41:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: steviemichael BDSM contracts are not legally binding. In areas of the world where BDSM activities are illegal, contracts brought to light can be used to prosecute those involved in the BDSM lifestyle. In most states, consent is not a defense to criminal activity, and a BDSM contract may not protect a Dominant from being charged with criminal activity. it may never noo it will never protect the Dom in fact it really just searves as proof that what the slave or angry person trying to get revenged by prosecuteing said happend is true.. and the judge I think would more want to beleave that the person was MADE to sign the contract and never did it on their own wants.. Magik's slave

WayHome -> RE: when is a contract is not a contract (2/9/2007 7:48:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SnowQueen Whille not legally binding, it could come back to haunt you, like in <a href="http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=16102112&BRD=1719&PAG=461&dept_id=25271&rfi=6">this example</a>. Actually that would not seem to be a case where a contract "came back to haunt" anyone. It would seem in that case the court took it for what it was, an indication of the nature of their relationship. Now she may be right and he may have struck her in a way that violates law as well as the agreed upon relationship but that decision was based on lack of evidence, not on the idea that she had no right to protection under law. Most people don't understand "order of protection". The fact that she is still voluntarily living in a house that he owns counts heavily against her purported need for protection. He tresspassed her which would seem to imply he's not trying to keep her around. Unless she can make a good argument that she HAS to stay in his house (if they had children for example) then the court's proper stance is "if you don't feel safe around him, don't go around him." In order to qualify for court protection she has to show that he has or may be expected to seek her out (such as stalking, threatenning, interfering with livelihood). Without substantial justification for continuing to live in his home, her claim of need for protection is weak at best. I suspect she doesn't really want to be out of his life completely. Now if her version of what he did is true, then he is guilty of assault and criminal charges might be appropriate IF there was enough evidence which clearly there is not. In this case the contract seems to have served as intended. Leto

vield -> RE: when is a contract is not a contract (2/9/2007 8:23:44 AM)
As many have stated well, a contract can not be enforced by law if the activities it covers are not legal where the contract is used. However a BD/SM contract certainly is an agreement between two or more person about the sort of activities the persons involved intend to enjoy together. No BD/SM contract can ever be valid unless all parties are consenting adults who knowingly agree to the provisions of the contract. A contract is an excellent way to negotiate your way into a connection with potential trainers or potential partners. There may be times a contract could be used against those who signed it by anti BD/SM law enforcement folks, but I feel that is going to be a very rare thing. We do not register our BD/SM contracts at the courthouse, so the enforcement people will not have access to the contract under most cercumstances. I have attended a number of classes and demos in different parts of the US where law enforcement personell and lawyers have discussed contracts and their value. A county level District Attorney actually gave printed copies of the contracts he uses with play partners to a group he was giving a presentation to. Even though some acts agreed upon could be considered law violations if law officers witnessed you doing them, the fact you all agreed the acts are OK does not prove that you are performing them. It also means in many places law enforcement is likely to go no further than queries when investigating a complaint by a neighbor. Usually they have a lot of more serious stuff to deal with than consenting adults getting it on consensually. Naturally the investigating officers may have fun talking about the kinksters later, back in the squad room. However this can lead law enforcement folks with kinky feelings to find out about area groups THEY can join. I have observed that some of the large regional events hire off duty police officers as security for their BD/SM events. I know this has lead to the failure of right wing groups trying to protest BD/SM events. At most events one must contract with the organizers to follow group rules at the event, or one is not allowed to enter.

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