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about exchange or is it just to change?? - 3/11/2005 2:06:44 AM

match2u

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Hug to all,

i would like to hear Your opinions about my thuoghts and the understanding i have so far - smile -

concerning the topic power exchange i always have seen it like the Ying and Yang.
a circle parted in two, melting together as O/one.
positions defined but at least both is necessary to become whole.

my experience so far, especially with Master/ Doms they really do want, need, desire that i am as sub/ slave exchange my power. a process taken by time, trust and respect...
for myself my energy is flowing and i give my energy, my strength to the One...

sadly that i have to mention i found out or better to say my experience is like - a Master appreciate this a lot but at least an exchange of energy from Him is not given.
they wanna be inspired, adored.. etc... and yes i love to do it - so do not get me wrong.
i am just asking myself am i a bottomless pit?
how much energy do i have to spread and part?

and from where should my energy created when there is no exchange?

is power exchange really an exchange - or may more like a change, demanded from the Dom/ Master?

please - i do not wanna offend anyone - just talking about my thuoghts and experience i have - smile

petra

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RE: about exchange or is it just to change?? - 3/11/2005 5:27:30 AM

BeachMystress

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In a round about way, this was brought up in another thread recently.The point there was that it isn't power that is really being exchanged.. it is authority. EmeraldSlave2 gave us the term "ultimate authority transfer" in the thread, "Debunking the Myth of "power exchange."" To me, that is more descriptive of what goes on in my BDSM relationship than "power" or energy being exchanged. In my relationship, I am the "traditional husband" and my sub is the "traditional wife." It works well for us. That doesn't mean I make every decision, but rather that when it matters to me that something be a certain way.. it is that way. I have ultimate veto power. This is not in play, where my sub doesn't get more of a voice than his safeword.. this is everyday life.

Now, I'd like instances where you're not getting a power back from your Dominant. Are we talking about play time? Because there, you are definitely getting energy back, whether you realize it or not. Your Dominant expends quite a bit of energy taking you to subspace. That is physical, mental and emotional energy in most cases. You're too busy in such a case feeling your own brand of energy expenditure. Because you see your submission as being "for" him, you're only seeing what you're giving in that instance. The energy the Dominant expends is out there.. you just don't know how to tap into it.

In day to day life, do you think it is easy to take on the responsibility of another person? Yes, my sub does more physical work, but that doesn't mean that I'm not putting energy/effort into the relationship. I monitor his health and safety. I guide him in his learning and growth. I expand his play experiences as he is ready for it. I have to evaluate him, his state of mind, his well being. It is mental rather than physical expenditure, but I find it no less valid.

Way too many overlook the less flashy forms of interaction or any form of interaction that is not instigated by them. Even subs retain the feeling that what they are doing is more significant than what the other person is doing/giving. Realizing the dynamics is a step in an evolving D/s relationship. One step in the submissive journey is the realization that you don't count who does what or how much you are receiving in relation to what you perceive you are being given. You are there to serve the other person. If your needs are adequately met and you are content plus your Dom/me is well served and happy, you've achieved the purpose of a D/s relationship.

A D/s relationship is not about how much energy you gain or expend; it is about service. If you don't agree with that definition, what do you think a D/s relationship is about? Part of your growth as a submissive is thinking about things like that. What IS the nature of your submission? Submission in general? What does it mean to you? Where does your need to submit originate? In what ways do you think you differ from other subs? What do you offer that others do not? Do you feel you have the right to expect certain things of your Dominant, and if so, what? What is the Dominant's role? How much control do you think a Dominant should assume over the sub's life? Knowing these things is part of finding how to be happy in your role as a submissive. Another large part of being happy as a submissive is finding the Dominant who fits you. If you do a good job of selecting the person to whom you give your submission, you'll not have problems like the worry if you're giving more than you get, since their basic ideas and yours mesh. Not everyone is right for each other. Since you're entering a relationship that once it starts, you're expected to give over your authority, you need to actually make an effort to figure out who is right for you. Then you go through the pain-in-the-tush journey of finding that person. It isn't easy or quick. Things that are worthwhile generally aren't. While some get lucky and find their right person by accident, most of us who have our "one" looked long and hard for them. Good luck figuring things out and finding your "one."

< Message edited by BeachMystress -- 3/11/2005 5:29:19 AM >

_____________________________

Beach Mystress
*Do not threaten the weak. Intimidate the strong. ~ Stevenson*
http://beachmystress.jigsy.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/beachmystress/

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RE: about exchange or is it just to change?? - 3/11/2005 5:44:07 AM

EmeraldSlave2

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Ideally to me it's not a power exchange, it's an authority transfer. I still have all the power I had before and in many cases the Owner has helped me become MORE powerful in myself.

However, ALL relationships require some energy exchange, there needs to be some feedback on all sides. HOW that feedback is relayed and WHAT type of feedback you need depends on the person and THAT is where compatibility comes in. How your dom views adequate feedback might leave you starving.

So express it honestly and see if it's a miscommunication, if he's just being selfish or if you're compatible.

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RE: about exchange or is it just to change?? - 3/11/2005 8:56:35 AM

slavedesires

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petra and Mystress,
I also think that many confuse D/s with BDSM as was brought out in another thread.
In my opinion, a relationship can have D/s with not ever having BDSM, or bondage and S/M.
That is what conflicts me many times esp when I am topped. I “dance” well with Master, from the very beginning, but with others, it can be a living hellhole. Even when being topped, I still maintain my submission to His dominance. To a top I only give temporary dominance. And of course the whole exchange is VERY different.

**Mystress** Way too many overlook the less flashy forms of interaction or any form of interaction that is not instigated by them. Even subs retain the feeling that what they are doing is more significant than what the other person is doing/giving.
**shy** my question is… Is it correct for a sub/slave to believe that what she gives is more important/significant?

**Mystress** Realizing the dynamics is a step in an evolving D/s relationship. One step in the submissive journey is the realization that you don't count who does what or how much you are receiving in relation to what you perceive you are being given.
**shy** my question is…. then why do so many female sub/slave profiles, which is indicative of belief, read so contrary to this? Is it that they do not get it or just that they might get it? I do not understand. And maybe it is not for me to understand.

**Mystress** You are there to serve the other person. If your needs are adequately met and you are content plus your Dom/me is well served and happy, you've achieved the purpose of a D/s relationship.
**shy** once again… I do believe no matter if it is my Dominant or top, I am there to serve, not get from the interaction what I can…so why do female sub/slaves say NO ONE can live solely to give their service to someone without getting SOMETHING back in return.? Maybe I am incorrect, but this statement to me says, I wont give unless I know I will receive something back…if so, is that submission?

**Mystress** A D/s relationship is not about how much energy you gain or expend; it is about service.
**she** YES, YES, YES!!

**Mystress**If you don't agree with that definition, what do you think a D/s relationship is about? Part of your growth as a submissive is thinking about things like that. What IS the nature of your submission? Submission in general? What does it mean to you? Where does your need to submit originate? In what ways do you think you differ from other subs? What do you offer that others do not? Do you feel you have the right to expect certain things of your Dominant, and if so, what? What is the Dominant's role? How much control do you think a Dominant should assume over the sub's life? Knowing these things is part of finding how to be happy in your role as a submissive. Another large part of being happy as a submissive is finding the Dominant who fits you. If you do a good job of selecting the person
**shy** You know, the term “interview” was mocked on a thread also, but in essence that is sort of what we do, chat and get to know who we are in relation to them and it can be an interview type of process.. question:response. And in this process, I think it forces not only the sub to think through these things, but also a dom, not only in relation to self, but also in relation to the other they chat with.

**Mystress** to whom you give your submission, you'll not have problems like the worry if you're giving more than you get, since their basic ideas and yours mesh.
**shy** I have to admit I do read journal entries, only because I started saving mine several months ago and I have read some where subs belittle the exchange between a dom and themselves or vice versa. I don’t understand this. Why not seek clarification of what each other means before shutting down what is said as meaningless, not their cup of tea or not their philosophy of D/s.
I think sometimes we might be saying the same thing but differently. I guess I am into exploring another persons concepts before I tell them F off, even when getting a tops views on what he considers my role is in play and viceversa.

**Mystress** Not everyone is right for each other. Since you're entering a relationship that once it starts, you're expected to give over your authority, you need to actually make an effort to figure out who is right for you. Then you go through the pain-in-the-tush journey of finding that person. It isn't easy or quick. Things that are worthwhile generally aren't. While some get lucky and find their right person by accident, most of us who have our "one" looked long and hard for them. Good luck figuring things out and finding your "one."
**shy** May I also say that even when the other one you find seems to match well, the journey may still be a pain in the tush because all relationships are a fluid dynamic, just because it is D/s doesn’t mean it will always be easy and have no potholes. What a boring relationship it would be if always 2 individuals were without need for resolution of any kind.
I guess I am only thinking about my own journey in relation to what I read, KNOWING I cannot compare, want not to compare or even tell another their journey is wrong and thus run like hell or whatever. I read so often others opinions on what others should do as if their word is the way another should handle the situation, but tis not so.

**petra** a circle parted in two, melting together as O/one.
positions defined but at least both is necessary to become whole.
**shy** I guess I would need to ask how dependent and thus independent do you want your relationship to be? For me, there is great cause for alarm, with me for sure, if the relationship was so codependent that all identity was lost. Sometimes I am very dependent and other times very independent, but I always know to whom I surrender.

**petra** for myself my energy is flowing and i give my energy, my strength to the One...
**shy** Even when I “function” as a bottom there is a certain amount of energy, authority, strength I give. When I was unowned, I thought about this and would write up the process my head, heart and energy went through during any encounter. Basically I journaled my journey into who I was becoming, helped me understand me, which i think is the most important thing a person can do, whether female/male, dom/sub.
Being owned, all of me, whether in being a bottom to another or not, always I give to Him.

**petra** at least an exchange of energy from Him is not given.
**shy** In my opinion, there is always energy given, just maybe not the kind or type you want to see or feel or recognize.
This is even true of my own D/s relationship, in areas NOT sexual, so I respectfully go to Him and tell Him my concerns. He may not give me an answer the way I like it, or even answer at all at that time, but there will always be a response. Tis an “exchange” as I submit to His authority and dominance.

**petra** i am just asking myself am i a bottomless pit?
how much energy do i have to spread and part?
**shy** Several years ago I heard this great illustration: As we give we receive. A teacup is filled only to serve. If it empties, what will it serve, so there must be one to fill it. Consider the dominant the one who fills the teacup and the submissive the one to give up its contents. If the teacup never went dry or served, what is it good for?

**petra** from where should my energy created when there is no exchange?
**shy** Several thoughts here petra. Your original energy is always you, it comes from within.
When there is an “exchange” it can be a temporary exchange, as when i play, or it will be a slow journey with the greater one who will find your submission a sweet surrender.

just my thoughts...
shy

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"i am the keeper of fragile things and i have kept what is indisolvable."
....the greatest gift.....vulnerability

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RE: about exchange or is it just to change?? - 3/11/2005 1:39:40 PM

BeachMystress

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavedesires
**shy** my question is… Is it correct for a sub/slave to believe that what she gives is more important/significant?

No, it is not correct to believe that what s/he gives is more important. Without a Dominant, where is the fulfilment for a sub? Both halves need to be there for the dynamic to function. I believe that what each gives is equally important. I have a bit different take on what a D/s relationship should be. My sub and I were talking early this morning and it helped clarify some of my feelings about D/s and BDSM. (My sub is fairly insightful. I've tried to encourage him to post more here, but he is a bit on the shy side. He also types slowly, so long posts are daunting to him. We're working on that.) His position was: D/s is how we live our lives.. BDSM is how we play. This means that in BDSM, I expect my sub to shut up, sit down and take it unless he has to safeword. In D/s, he has a voice. My opinion is the one that rules, but he is expected to be an active participant in our relationship. Is what he gives me more important than what I give him? No, in my eyes though, neither is it less. While I am the core of his life, he is also the core of mine.

quote:

my question is…. then why do so many female sub/slave profiles, which is indicative of belief, read so contrary to this? Is it that they do not get it or just that they might get it? I do not understand. And maybe it is not for me to understand.

I really can't tell you why a lot of female profiles read as if what they give is more important that what their Dominant gives. It could be a lack of understanding D/s and BDSM. There are as many dabblers and players on the female side as the male. Not everyone who claims to be Dominant is, as I'm sure you already know. Also, not everyone who claims to be submissive is willing to give submission. Lots of things work well in fantasy, but when they hit the cold reality of real time, they don't fly.

Being submissive is returning to the type of parent/child relationship people found so restrictive as a youth. While it may occasionally appeal to a great many people, not all of them can maintain that dynamic and are only submissive on "their" terms and schedule. Those are often classified as "fakes" when it really just means they have less of a need to be submissive than some others. This doesn't make them fakes. When they give submission it can be just as real. They just don't feel the need to do it often. Because of the stigma associated with admitting that you don't want this ALL THE TIME, and the "real"/"fake" debate, a lot of people who might otherwise feel comfortable stating their need level feel that they need to show more dedication to be taken seriously. Since this may go against their grain, they may unconsciously use other ways (such as belligerent language) to make sure that the level they are willing to submit is communicated.

Also, you have the fact that the female is generally the rare one in this lifestyle. That means that the males have to court their favor. Since they have such a choice, it tends to make femsubs feel what they have to offer is more important. Since a GOOD Dominant is as rare as a good sub, this isn't really true. They have their choice of bottom feeders. If they want a better quality Dominant, they actually have to put time and effort into both the search and their submission.

quote:

I do believe no matter if it is my Dominant or top, I am there to serve, not get from the interaction what I can…so why do female sub/slaves say NO ONE can live solely to give their service to someone without getting SOMETHING back in return.? Maybe I am incorrect, but this statement to me says, I wont give unless I know I will receive something back…if so, is that submission?

It is human nature to expect something in return for what we do. There are very few people who do something for absolutely no reason. If they aren't getting something back from the other person, they are receiving internal satisfaction from being of service or helping. Why do we give to charity? The end recipient doesn't know; our friends don't know unless we tell them. It is for that good feeling we get when we do something to help others. That is an internal reward. Not all rewards come from the other person in an interaction.

You feel you don't expect, but don't you expect the Dominant/Top to watch out for your safety? Do you expect them to take control of you? Do you expect them to accept your offered submission? It is all a set of give and take. What you expect and what others expect may differ. Would you serve someone who didn't even know they were being served? What do you feel about the traditional role of "wife?" Does the idea of putting a husband first and making the household run make you tingly? If not, you're not into pure service. You need something back, be it kinky interaction or the other person acknowledging your service.

quote:

the term “interview” was mocked on a thread also, but in essence that is sort of what we do, chat and get to know who we are in relation to them and it can be an interview type of process.. question:response. And in this process, I think it forces not only the sub to think through these things, but also a dom, not only in relation to self, but also in relation to the other they chat with.

What they were mocking, I believe, was the thought that you could get to know someone well enough to decide to submit to them in a single sitting with questions/answers format. You may have been spared the "interview" process, but a lot use it. It is one of the reasons so few BDSM relationships last.. they are built not over a period of time, but declared after a short (and to me short is any number of online, phone or email conversations followed by one or two meetings before declaring yourself as someone's sub or Dominant) "interview" process.

While some of the things that a new Dominant asks may be things a sub hasn't considered, they should already have thought about most of the questions. Being submissive shouldn't be passive. In my eyes, you should be actively figuring out what, when, where, how and why. It shouldn't take someone's asking to make you consider most of the common questions.

quote:

**Mystress** to whom you give your submission, you'll not have problems like the worry if you're giving more than you get, since their basic ideas and yours mesh.
**shy** I have to admit I do read journal entries, only because I started saving mine several months ago and I have read some where subs belittle the exchange between a dom and themselves or vice versa. I don’t understand this. Why not seek clarification of what each other means before shutting down what is said as meaningless, not their cup of tea or not their philosophy of D/s.
I think sometimes we might be saying the same thing but differently. I guess I am into exploring another persons concepts before I tell them F off, even when getting a tops views on what he considers my role is in play and viceversa.

I don't quite get what you're trying to say or ask, since my post was about making sure you have enough stuff in common to actually build a relationship, and your response doesn't seem to fit what I said. You'll need to clarify for me to answer this. Were you just elaborating on the point? Or are we misunderstanding each other?

quote:

May I also say that even when the other one you find seems to match well, the journey may still be a pain in the tush because all relationships are a fluid dynamic, just because it is D/s doesn’t mean it will always be easy and have no potholes. What a boring relationship it would be if always 2 individuals were without need for resolution of any kind.
I guess I am only thinking about my own journey in relation to what I read, KNOWING I cannot compare, want not to compare or even tell another their journey is wrong and thus run like hell or whatever. I read so often others opinions on what others should do as if their word is the way another should handle the situation, but tis not so.

Oh yes, I fully agree... once you work to get something good, you work to keep it good. This is true no matter what lifestyle you live. Good relationships don't just happen, they are made and maintained. And while we can offer advice based on our own experience, what we've experienced and the people we've experienced it with are all different. We can share, but ultimately, everyone has to decide their own course.

_____________________________

Beach Mystress
*Do not threaten the weak. Intimidate the strong. ~ Stevenson*
http://beachmystress.jigsy.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/beachmystress/

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RE: about exchange or is it just to change?? - 3/12/2005 8:45:46 AM

slavedesires

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BeachMystress

I have a bit different take on what a D/s relationship should be. My sub and I were talking early this morning and it helped clarify some of my feelings about D/s and BDSM. His position was: D/s is how we live our lives.. BDSM is how we play. This means that in BDSM, I expect my sub to shut up, sit down and take it unless he has to safeword. In D/s, he has a voice. My opinion is the one that rules, but he is expected to be an active participant in our relationship. Is what he gives me more important than what I give him? No, in my eyes though, neither is it less. While I am the core of his life, he is also the core of mine.

quote:

**Mystress** to whom you give your submission, you'll not have problems like the worry if you're giving more than you get, since their basic ideas and yours mesh.
**shy** I have to admit I do read journal entries, only because I started saving mine several months ago and I have read some where subs belittle the exchange between a dom and themselves or vice versa. I don’t understand this. Why not seek clarification of what each other means before shutting down what is said as meaningless, not their cup of tea or not their philosophy of D/s.
I think sometimes we might be saying the same thing but differently. I guess I am into exploring another persons concepts before I tell them F off, even when getting a tops views on what he considers my role is in play and viceversa.

I don't quite get what you're trying to say or ask, since my post was about making sure you have enough stuff in common to actually build a relationship, and your response doesn't seem to fit what I said. You'll need to clarify for me to answer this. Were you just elaborating on the point? Or are we misunderstanding each other?

Mystress,
what i was trying to point out is in the process of learning about each other, "finding enough stuff in common," sometimes people say the same thing but not the same way many times..and before rudely shutting someone down, maybe claification is appropriate, you know, asking the other one to explain what they mean.
i think sometimes we get too hung up on "BDSM lingo and jargon" thinking we all might use the same language/words to mean the same thing...but as you and i know, this is definately not true.

Master and i would consider the "take" on D/s, M/s and BDSM as you and your sub.
So nice to see it written once cause i have felt this all my journey through. Finding a dom who siccinctly felt as i did, to whom i could give my all, whom i could dance to His rythm as well as be His harmony was a journey! But still not without its work on both sides. It is the work that makes the walls stronger after the foundation.

shy

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i speak only my personal opinion, sometimes O/ours.

"i am the keeper of fragile things and i have kept what is indisolvable."
....the greatest gift.....vulnerability

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RE: about exchange or is it just to change?? - 3/12/2005 9:53:07 AM

slavedesires

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BeachMystress,
yes the long posts with quotes are HARD, even for this one…so forgive the format once again.

**Mystress** Being submissive is returning to the type of parent/child relationship people found so restrictive as a youth. While it may occasionally appeal to a great many people, not all of them can maintain that dynamic and are only submissive on "their" terms and schedule.
**shy** I love this Mystress!
The D/s relationship is like going back to the parent/child relationship where authority is given to the parent. But the relationship is also all about the respect each give to the other as being child or parent. May I suggest this IS Biblical. The Bible says, children obey your parents in all things…but soon afterwards it says, parents do not provoke your child to anger. The dynamic is built on authority but also respect. A child will always be a child altho the dynamic changes once emancipated.
I guess this is where my submission is grounded. So it is that I consider myself a natural submissive. Altho, certainly, for me maintaining my child focus was at times VERY unsubmissive as I fought to “grow up” without the protection, love, care and boundaries of my parents. Being disciplined did it for me. So being where I am now, seems no different many times. I am emancipated from mom and dad, but “indentured” to Master now.

**Mystress** If they want a better quality Dominant, they actually have to put time and effort into both the search and their submission.
**shy** Master said to me in January, the journey is focus by focus with Him leading the way, if I wanted instant gratification, then I must decide for He would never promise that. The words of a wise parent or Master in my opinion. I love calling Master Daddy!!

**Mystress** It is human nature to expect something in return for what we do. There are very few people who do something for absolutely no reason. If they aren't getting something back from the other person, they are receiving internal satisfaction from being of service or helping. Why do we give to charity? The end recipient doesn't know; our friends don't know unless we tell them. It is for that good feeling we get when we do something to help others. That is an internal reward. Not all rewards come from the other person in an interaction.
**shy** fully agreed and thus my gift, not only service but personality.

**Mystress** You feel you don't expect, but don't you expect the Dominant/Top to watch out for your safety? Do you expect them to take control of you? Do you expect them to accept your offered submission? It is all a set of give and take. What you expect and what others expect may differ. Would you serve someone who didn't even know they were being served? What do you feel about the traditional role of "wife?" Does the idea of putting a husband first and making the household run make you tingly? If not, you're not into pure service. You need something back, be it kinky interaction or the other person acknowledging your service.
**shy** may I admit, I have gotten tingly just reading this… tis exactly what I wrote in a journal to Master not long ago, but worded differently.

graciously
shy

_____________________________

i speak only my personal opinion, sometimes O/ours.

"i am the keeper of fragile things and i have kept what is indisolvable."
....the greatest gift.....vulnerability

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RE: about exchange or is it just to change?? - 3/12/2005 10:06:17 AM

match2u

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thanks a lot for all Your thuoghts and views
they help me indeed - smile -

even i have to admitt, sometimes i feel like the whole thing is a supermarket and i wear a sign of price on me

please do not misunderstood me

but may You hear a bit of disappointment in my words - and yes there is.
at least i was convinced about to talk open and to communicate clear, especially in the beginning to make sure that there is a bottom...
and i believe like told here before it needs work from both of it....

so far my experience is - in telling my needs, my limits i would probably often hear i top from the bottom or at least i get the response i am not a true submissive....

however - there will be a light in the end - smile -

thanks

petra

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RE: about exchange or is it just to change?? - 3/12/2005 10:41:35 AM

slavedesires

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quote:

ORIGINAL: match2u

so far my experience is - in telling my needs, my limits i would probably often hear i top from the bottom or at least i get the response i am not a true submissive....

petra

my sweet petra...

i had a difficult time for a long while with doms telling me in chat that i was being a brat or sassy or even topping from the bottom in chat....
finally i put my armour on and said... if my voice is not heard, my actions not viewed and they know me NOT, then how can they say i am topping, how can they know MY motives..they dont even know me and they judge me this way?
i finally replied by saying "and you think you know me well enough to say my mtotives are to be sassy and bratty and topping how?" to one dom that i chatted with and he told me to f** off, that i was not a submissive at all.
but interestingly enough i have received this response from probably 9 out of 10 over my journey "you are well-trained and behaved."

sweet petra,
be who you are, for if you are not, you deny your own self and it is yourself that you will give to another.
cultivate yourself the way you want to be and give you to another that deserves you after you know that you respect him.

i have long ago shut down and discarded so many others opinions about who what where and how in this lifestyle ...for i must be who i am first and foremost not what others think i should, could or would be. it was when i knew myself well enough that i could give myself away and surrender to only the one i desired to give my all to.

for some of us, it takes years (i am NOT young!), others it takes only a few years (and they could be half my age) ...it is the nature of our own journey.

[[[[{{{{hugs}}}}]]]]
shy

_____________________________

i speak only my personal opinion, sometimes O/ours.

"i am the keeper of fragile things and i have kept what is indisolvable."
....the greatest gift.....vulnerability

(in reply to match2u)

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Post #: 9

RE: about exchange or is it just to change?? - 3/13/2005 3:49:48 AM

match2u

Posts: 131
Joined: 11/15/2004
Status: offline

thanks a lot shy - be sure Your words are appreciated and they help me a lot....

petra

(in reply to slavedesires)

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Post #: 10