quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

What, for example, if its the sub who enjoys the spanking, and the Dom does so because she enjoys it and not visa versa? Please explain the sadism in that sense.

I guess I would ask why a dominant is doing something that they don't want to do. This digs into another conversation like , Can masochism exist without sadism? Can submission exist without dominance? etc. In the situation you described, who is submitting to who?

quote:

quote:

What if a Dom enjoys being spanked and orders the sub to do so, not for the sadism but for the sensation of the spank. She does so because its His wish... Is spanking, ultimately Sadism? please explain sadism within that.

I say yes. A force is being produced that creates discomfort, pain, sensation, etc. If you enjoy creating this sensation, you have delved into the sadistic. If you enjoy the sensation, masochistic.

I mean, my girl is a pain slut. I can beat her ass bloody and she would get on her knees and thank me for it. I am creating a sensation and am enjoying giving her that sensation. She is loving the sensation. Just because we enjoy what we are doing does not make it any less sadistic or masochistic. Now apply that to a lighter form of play. Is it any less sadistic or masochistic to enjoy a light spanking? It may be less intense, which is why I feel many people don't see it for what it is.

quote:

IMO...yes, although I think it really depends on what you are doing. Bondage, in itself, I don't really feel as being sadistic. But what is being done to you while you are bound? Are you receiving sensations that are driving you absolutely crazy? The sensations may be pleasureable...but still you squirm. Why? What is making you pull against the ropes?

quote:

Again, just because we enjoy the sensation, doesn't make it any less sadistic.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

I was thinking ,say of the situation where the Dominant wishes to give their sub a reward. If He gives her the choice, and she wishes to be spanked, and he agrees even though it is not something he desires within their relationship, then He is doing so because its His desire to treat her, to help her grow. It isnt the act, but the outcome. Its still ultimately His decision, but that doesnt make Him Sadistic? The sub cannot recieve unless the Dominant decides. Therefore she submits, not the Dominant. He doesnt have to be sadistic, however to make such a decision.

quote:


I personally dont believe that masocism can exist without sadism and visa versa. I believe the same goes for D & s... I don't however beleive that D/s can exist without S/m... but i do believe that S/m cannot exist without some form of D/s or at least T/b...

quote:

Then the Dominant in this scenario is delving into masocism, granted. But the sub is only doing what the Dominant has desired... doesnt make her Sadist, just obeying Him. Where is the sadism in this example? The sadism can be a tool, a part of, but in this instance, it isnt being enjoyed by the sub... the goal for the sub is to obey, pure and simple.

quote:

If bondage in itself is not sadistic, then by the same token, nor is D/s. Sometimes, I am bound because it is used in a Sm context... I indeed, squirm, writhe, feel sensations. By the same token, I love bondage primarily because when I am bound, I can be free to be myself... I slip into a mindset that is way beyond anything I could describe in words. And most importantly, I use bonage because Master decided.

quote:


Hair pulling doesnt have to be sadistic... some people purely have a hair fetish.

quote:

I still hold firm to my belief and I really enjoy discussions like this. Others can read and make their own minds up.

quote:

Sadism is still present. The dominant is still taking some degree of pleasure in the act, yes? Seeing his submissive grow? Seeing her receive a reward for accomplishing her duties? The tool he is using still involves sadism. The act is sadistic, even if he does not consider himself to be a sadist. So then sadism still exists, albeit maybe not on a daily basis.

Not necessarily. The dominant (in this scenario) took pleasure, not from the act, but from the growth. I guess it really comes down to as to whether one sees sadism in growth or in the action. Sadism is involved, but it was still a tool. But the act itself doesnt have to be. Its an act of love and of allowing the sub a moment of reward. I have seen Dominants serve their girl, because He knows she would be awestruck by it. Or even as a training. Maybe the Dom, in using the spanking as a 'treat', is in fact, teaching a sub how to 'spank' in His way, through her experience so she can satisfy His masocistic need? Is it realistic? Yes.( And no disrespects taken)

quote:

True, but is the act any less sadistic? The person performing the act may not be a sadist, but sadism is still present in this scenario. The goal of a dominant may be to teach a slave how to kneel properly. When she is not in the correct position, perhaps he uses a cane across the backs of her thighs, then positions her how he wants her. He isn't taking pleasure in caning her and she takes no pleasure in being caned. Does this make the act less sadistic?

quote:

I would be interested in hearing your Master's input on how he feels to see you bound. Does he take pleasure in seeing you bound? Or is it more of a sadistic "feeling" that comes from it?

quote:

A masochistic submissive serving someone void of sadistic tendencies? Wouldn't a masochist seek a sadist?

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns
A force is being produced that creates discomfort, pain, sensation, etc. If you enjoy creating this sensation, you have delved into the sadistic. If you enjoy the sensation, masochistic.

quote:

You have to know what you take away or give for punishment will promote a change of behavior and give you the desired effect. While you do not see that as sadistic .. betting at the moment your child may think otherwise *twinkles*.

quote:

But I agree punishment is fun on neither side ... not for the one being punished nor the one doling it out.

quote:

Original: Darkangel

Oh rose, its amazing! He wants me to be free when in His Control. How much better can it get?

quote:

ORIGINAL: SubbieHubbie

Unless the community has started to define "sadism" in ways that do not involve pain, cruelty and emotional abuse, how can it be determined that following the will of another simply in order to follow that will is sadistic. Actually, strictly speaking, even if we suppose that a power differential meets the criteria for sadomassochism then following the will of another would be the massochistic end (having it willingly inflicted on you).

quote:


From this definition, every parent (barring the most laissez-faire of parenting methods) is a sadist. After all, they give orders that, following a possible explanation, are expected to be followed. I don't think this would count as a sadistic conduct - though the parent is the dominant one in the parent-child relationship (generally speaking, with the possible exception of some unruly children).

quote:



I'll also ask you a question - given what you said, what is the difference between sadism/domination and massochism/submissiveness? If we define any act of control as ultimately sadistic, then isn't calling the community BDSM rather than BSM redundant? I hope I don't come across as offensive, and apologize if I do - but I simply disagree.